[0.90] Magic Smoke Industries Infernal Robotics - 0.19.3

[Ziw]

Snip

Gantry #1 extends as it should, but gantry #2 & #3 extend backwards. Anyone know why this is happening and how to fix it?

Gantry is tricky to attach properly, for your application better use Extendatron (see ZodiusInfuser Model Rework).

[twiget]

Thanks for the tip, Ziw. Those parts are awesome. Unfortunately it looks like it's something with my save game. I tried using one of hinges from the rework; everything works like its supposed to in the VAB, but on the launch pad it's FUBAR'ed. So I made a new save and did the same thing, everything works fine in the VAB and on the launch pad.

[Tarheel1999]

Thanks for the tip, Ziw. Those parts are awesome. Unfortunately it looks like it's something with my save game. I tried using one of hinges from the rework; everything works like its supposed to in the VAB, but on the launch pad it's FUBAR'ed. So I made a new save and did the same thing, everything works fine in the VAB and on the launch pad.

I think 4 of the pivotrons foldatrons were re-released to fix some transform issues resulting from an IR update. Unfortunately, I think the only way to find them is to look through the rework thread. I think there was a post about two weeks ago that consolidated a bunch of the links. Sorry, I can't be more specific. And here you go. This post has a link to the fixed foldatrons.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Tarheel1999

[Talavar]

Am I to understand that IR works without tweakscale, but all parts will be standard 1.25? If so that would be fine with me, As I seem to be getting some undesirable effects with tweakscale

[Master Tao]

That's right, though you can also try deleting all the default configs in KSP/GameData/TweakScale, leaving DefaultScales.cfg and ScaleExponents.cfg in case other mods use them (IR does not).

[Dr_Goddard]

Hey Sirkut.

There was one more thing I needed to do before I dispatch some poor Kerbals on a mission with this beast.

Sound pitch linked to the speed of the servos (and my own sound file stolen from a SkyLift) makes it so much more "robot-ish"

I hope you enjoy. It's just one line of code added to your methods.

[Dr_Goddard]

Gantry #1 extends as it should, but gantry #2 & #3 extend backwards. Anyone know why this is happening and how to fix it?

Hey Twiget, glad you solved your problem.

It made me think I should post some suggestions on Robotic Symmetry based on my experience.

In the very badly drawn diagram it shows the normal expectations from symmetrical robotic parts moving axially from a ship.

In radial symmetry all the parts move in the same direction around a common axis. Because they are symmetrical you would have to reverse the rotation of one of each pair to have them move in opposing manner. This will require you to remove symmetry with a tool called "strip symmetry" http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/220656-stripsymmetry.

Otherwise when you change the rotation of one you change them all.

This will get you going if you use the Infernal Robotics controls or Action Groups to control your parts. (more on the effects with Kerbal Operating System kOS later)

In mirror symmetry you can install pairs of parts and they will operate in opposing motion from the get go. Mirror symmetry will still obey snapping to angles so getting them lined up is no problem. I still suggest stripping symmetry.

If you are making a multiple joint legs. Build one, and get it positioned and rotated to where you want it. Then save it as a subassembly and add multiples back with symmetry. This is not so crucial with IR controls but MAJORLY important with robotics controlled by kOS. Especially if you are going to use acceleration curves. Not getting the legs identical attracts Krakens.

For kOS controlled robotics, it is important to ALWAYS use mirror symmetry. This is because invert axis does not do what you think it does. It reverses the direction via the built in IR controls, but + and - directions remain the same. By adding parts in mirror mode you are making servos with mirrored +- directions. If you attach the parts in radial mode your +- are all facing the same direction axially. There's no way to change it.

Maybe Sirkut will add another control or change the way reverse rotation works. (I don't think it would be game save breaking).

That's all I got.

G

Edited February 11, 2015 by Dr_Goddard
spelling and naming errors.

[Camacan]

Hi. I've been having fun making fancy rovers with your excellent mod, thanks for all your work on it.

I have a bug report.

KSP Version: 0.90.0.705 (WindowsPlayer) Steam BETA

Mods installed:

• Infernal Robotics Parts Pack - v0.19.
  
• TweakScale - v1.50.

Problem: The attachment point of GantryLargeScaleable moves after a quicksave/restore from quicksave.

Reproduction steps:

1. Create a simple craft with a GantryLargeScaleable.
   
2. Launch ship and move pad to one end of the track.
   
3. Quicksave f5.
   
4. Restore f9.
   
5. The GantryLargeScaleable track has moved a large distance with respect to its parent
   

Log:

Before the quicksave.

After: waaaay off to the left. Makes for amazing bunny hops if the rail is now in the ground.

Log Files

• bug_report.txt
  
• before_quicksave.png
  
• after_quicksave_restore.png
  
• IR_quicksave_bugtest_1.craft
  
• quicksave.sfs.before_quicksave
  
• quicksave.sfs.after_quicksave_restore
  
• quicksave_diff.txt
  
• output_log.txt
  

I figured the quicksave.sfs would help tell us what is going on. Certainly there are differences. The relevant section of the diff appears to be this one (?)

PART

{

name = GantryLargeScaleable

cid = 4294202464

uid = 4236401740

mid = 3706330563

launchID = 5

parent = 1

9398,9399c9398,9399

< position = -1.20888352394104,-1.89850175380707,5.18722970355157E-07

< rotation = 0.5000014,-0.499999,0.5000011,0.4999986

---

> position = -1.20889353752136,-1.90301132202148,4.00000333786011

> rotation = 0.5000005,-0.4999996,0.5000007,0.4999993

9415c9415

<

And:

9486c9486

< translation = 0

---

> translation = -4

9654c9654

The different translation figures make sense, but my guess is something is up with that third figure of position.

Oddly, if I restore the position to the "before" values I get this:

Now the pad's back in the center -- not where it is meant to be on the left, and the track is still out of position, but not as much. If I set both the position and translation back to "before" values the problem is gone, which agrees with the fact that I don't see the problem if the pad is centered.

It's as if the position of the track is taken using the pad as the base coordinates and so needs to be adjusted as the pad moves to keep it still -- but something has gone wrong during quicksave? Just a guess.

Thanks again.

(Workaround Recenter all gantry rails before quicksaving. It also seems to fix the problem after it occurs: recenter, quicksave, restore.)

(Edit to add: tried removing Tweakscale so IR is the only mod installed. Bug remains.)

Edited February 11, 2015 by Camacan
Add appended extra additional info.

[Ziw]

I think gantry is prone to too many issues. In my crane project I ended up constructing my own gantry out of 3 extendatrons (from Model Rework) - not very elegant solution, but it worked.

[MartGonzo]

So now tweakscale is officially unsupported what now for IR?

Will someone else take on tweakscale or will the requirement for that mod be dropped?

[Ziw]

So now tweakscale is officially unsupported what now for IR?

Will someone else take on tweakscale or will the requirement for that mod be dropped?

A lot of people have issues with tweakscale (including me personally) so they try to avoid using it. You can still use IR without tweakscale, but you either have to edit the CFG files yourself or stick to 1 size of the IR parts.

[MartGonzo]

A lot of people have issues with tweakscale (including me personally) so they try to avoid using it. You can still use IR without tweakscale, but you either have to edit the CFG files yourself or stick to 1 size of the IR parts.

ah ok, thanks

I hope someone does take tweakscale up though as it's one of the most useful mods

The last version that seemed to work without issues was 1.44 maybe someone who knows how could look into porting that version across to the 0.90 beta?

Edited February 11, 2015 by MartGonzo

[Olympic1]

ah ok, thanks

I hope someone does take tweakscale up though as it's one of the most useful mods

The last version that seemed to work without issues was 1.44 maybe someone who knows how could look into porting that version across to the 0.90 beta?

There is a fix for tweakscale, but I didn't test it because I never use TS

Edited February 11, 2015 by Master Tao
change link for compliance with Add-on Posting Rules

[MartGonzo]

There is a fix for tweakscale, but I didn't test it because I never use TS

many thanks, I'll give that a try

Edited February 11, 2015 by Master Tao
same as above

[Camacan]

So now tweakscale is officially unsupported what now for IR?

Will someone else take on tweakscale or will the requirement for that mod be dropped?

I'm reading a lot about folks having trouble with Tweakscale. Naively, it seems like IR would be well served by having its own bare-bones rescaling support built in; just enough to change the size of its own components. Both to get away from the bugs and avoid an inter-mod dependency which never seems optimal from a mod management point of view. But it is easy to suggest someone else does more work.

My install of KSP has been uncrashable for months but I'm getting crash bugs every 40 minutes or so since I installed IR/Tweakscale -- but only when I revert to assembly. I've been trying to work out if it is IR or Tweakscale, but so far it's just not reproducible. And it's a "silent" crash -- no dialogue saying a crash log has been generated. Is there a way to identify which mod crashed / get more info?

[sirkut]

I'll see about implementing my own custom TweakScale style feature to IR. All I need is the size and translations to change. I hope it will be an easy fix.

[Camacan]

That would be terrific.

(Just to clarify -- that first bug report up in #5011 isn't Tweakscale related.)

[Ziw]

I'll see about implementing my own custom TweakScale style feature to IR. All I need is the size and translations to change. I hope it will be an easy fix.

Yes!!! Please! I believe Zodius already started looking into it too.

[taniwha]

sirkut: Just be sure to do the scale setting in OnLoad or OnStart and not in (On)(Fixed)Update. Yes, that will make the editor a little trickier, but it will be much better in-flight.

[Galane]

How to make coaxial spinning things using the free spinning docking washers. You need three washers. Place one with the fixed base down, on top of the craft. Place the bottom rotor parts on top of the washer.

Place a washer, fixed base UP, on top of the bottom rotor. Place the third washer, fixed base down, on the second washer, then build the top rotor.

However, it's easier to build from the top down because the nodes on the washers don't want to snap together when placing then on top of other parts, but do snap on the bottom.

I gave this a test with a simple unmanned drone with two four bladed rotors build with wing connectors and the little orange radial engines at their tips.

What would be useful to reduce the numbers of joints and parts in such a build is a double sided free spinning docking washer with a fixed center and two rotating parts.

Here's my attempt at a dual rotor (not coaxial) gyrocopter. It flies pretty decently, pops up off the runway real smooth in a short distance at half throttle with SAS on. MechJeb's spaceplane guidance handles it well enough.

The problem is landing. I've managed just once to land it without complete destruction (still tore off 1.5 rotors) and killing Jeb, and that was missing the runway. All other times throughout development to the posted craft it crashed on the runway. Even when it comes down level it immediately flips to one side. Tonight I tried extending the rear landing gear to the sides with 1x1 panels on the small hardpoints then angling them down to bring the gear down to the same level as the nosewheel. Same flipping problem, even with changing the flaps on the rotor support bar to two type 5 on each side. That pretty much stopped roll instability in flight. Still pitches up and down a little.

I may try a quad landing gear, extended even farther to the sides. Just for the heck of it I may try sticking an Oscar B and one of that size engines on the radial attachment point then trigger it at touchdown to try and 'nail' the craft to the deck to keep it from flipping.

The really bugging thing is how slow the rotors spin. Real world gyroplanes have the unpowered rotors spinning real fast via the air movement through them. Would be nice if they'd spin fast and work for landing with auto-rotation. They can be forced to spin fast by putting engines at their tips, but then it's no longer an autogyro. Once the power it stopped the rotors slow to a crawl, no inertia. If they'd spin fast enough a single rotor design would work, but at the slow speed it gets retreating blade stall and rolls the craft over.

[AcidEric]

Hi just a quick question (i Hope)

I could really do with an unpowered tall hinge ( like the free rotating washers but as a tall hinge). I've tried searching the thread but didn't find anything.

I have a big heavy rover that breaks going onto hills or off the runway what would I need to change in the part config to achieve this (if its even possible) I'm pretty clueless when it comes to this sort of thing so a post I can copy and paste would be great.

Cheers

AE

[Leon026]

This might be a strange question, but I downloaded the plugin, and extracted it to my GameData folder... but I dont see anything ingame? : (

[Master Tao]

@AcidEric:

The Rework parts (link in the OP) include a free-moving hinge. Try it with a smaller rover first. I don't think it will serve your purpose because it pivots completely freely without stop points. I believe it's not possible due to Unity physics limitations – you can't have a part be both free moving and have stop points.

@Leon26:

When installed correctly, you will have a MagicSmokeIndustries folder in your GameData folder. If that's what you have, check with a new sandbox game since the parts are available fairly late in Career mode.

[AcidEric]

I don't mind no stop points.

I've managed to cobble something together with the free washer but its a bit too flexible a hinge would also be more elegant.

Its a bit of a monster but it does have space for 15 kerbals and nearly 100k rocket parts so I can build my MKS base onsite as one piece

Edited February 13, 2015 by AcidEric

[Camacan]

Galane: I suspect the phenomena that you are seeing are a result of KSPs aerodynamics being quirky rather than realistic. Neither lift not drag works in intuitive ways. Perhaps things will improve with the coming overhaul.

I wonder if docking washers are a good choice to power rotors, in terms of what they were originally designed for.

(Gotta be better than

this monstrosity though!)

You might be interested in this helicopter design competition. And this crazy coaxial helicopter design.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Camacan