Old 0.20 save debate: Please close, mods.

[finkmac]

*Sigh*… No save migration… Not even a converter…

So much for my fun KSP times…

[Giggleplex777]

*Sigh*… No save migration… Not even a converter…

So much for my fun KSP times…

C'mon, back in the old days, saves and .crafts broke in almost every update. I'm used to it.

[FITorion]

ISA Mapsat doesn't work that way. It actually DOES scan the surface, using an adjustable number of scanlines. It comes with no pregenerated map textures and no database of locations (it has a database of maximum and minimum altitudes for each planet, however).

That's most of why it's so neat: Saving the raw scan data allows you to generate maps of more or less an arbitrary size. I used to do that to check the fine resolution of my scans, generating huge maps to pore over while zoomed in.

It may have worked the way you say at first, but not any longer.

Edit: You know, I forgot about one of the features he added in The dev version of mapsat 4: There's now a button to regenerate the altitude database, which he claims is to allow you to scan new planets without him having to update the plugin manually to do it.

Edit2: Okay, it's not a button, it's a checkbox (a round one that lights up but...) It checks for missing planets automatically if enabled, but apparently it's a fairly time consuming operation to calculate the altitudes and add them to the database.

That's my guess too, but you are now officially my favorite person for the day.

hmm. well...

that's cool. ... but I guess it does mean you'll have to rescan the planet... IF it changes significantly.

[Tiron]

hmm. well...

that's cool. ... but I guess it does mean you'll have to rescan the planet... IF it changes significantly.

Which is why I polished off Minmus and am waiting for that dev blog before I do any more scanning. If they're going to be futzing with terrain I'd like to minimize the damage.

[Dweeb of Kerbin]

While save breaking does kind of suck, even with the steam version (at least so far) if you copy the current main kerbal folder and name the pasted version something new, you will still be able to go into that folder and play the old version once the game has updated. I'm not great at letting things go, so I have a feeling I will be doing a lot of trial and error to see what I can move from the old version into the new one.

[FITorion]

I plan on moving my designs over. Shouldn't be any reason why the list of parts and what they're connected to should change with this update so...

But we'll see what happens. I backed them up just to make sure they didn't get deleted during the update.

[NoMrBond]

*Sigh*… No save migration… Not even a converter…

So much for my fun KSP times…

Make sure you save your files, once players/coders are aware of the differences between the 0.20 save/persistence files and the 0.21 save/persistence files someone will hopefully release a save converter/updater

[KerbMav]

I never play on patchday anyway.

And as long as I keep my space station stock, I think it will be up again in no time - in this case I wouldnt even be above hyperediting it fully assembled back into orbit!

[Scotius]

Oh, come on guys. I look forward to fresh start with updated stuff. Even if we don't get many new parts, new ASAS alone will be game-changing. Some designs that are impossible to fly now might be doable with the new way ship control will be handled.

Tyrion. I feel your pain, man. I'm currently halfway through scanning Moho, and it was PITA to get MapSat there. And i have a flock of MapSats en route to every planet in system - sending them all was not a walk in the park. Next time do things a bit different. Instead of sending probes send kerballed exploration crafts, or even a landing mission that will release mapping satellites once arriving.

[nats]

I accept I bought a beta game that will be developing -

"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds ...."

is my motto with this game, I just play one off missions at the moment.

[comham]

Save compatability decisions are a balancing act between boosting the community (allowing them to keep their saves, make more LP's and boost sales) and actually developing the game. KSP has a pretty healthy community and nuking the saves occasionally probably boosts the community too, because of the fresh start effect. So I welcome save nuking.

Also I don't actually play KSP. I'm waiting for 1.0 All I've done is land on the mun and minmus.

[jwenting]

well said, comham. We already have some elitists who belittle the efforts of those of us who're less expert than them. Without the occasional nuking of saves and big changes to the user experience that kicks them back a few notches that would get a lot worse, leaving the community largely hostile to newcomers even before GA release.

[Catullus]

If your save matters that much, unzip the new version into a fresh directory and just keep playing the old one until you're ready for something new. I still pull out .18.2 occasionally.

[Fractal_UK]

As a last resort, you can always recreate important things in your old save file in the VAB, then edit the save file to move them from the launch pad to the proper location. I have a few space stations in orbit of other bodies that took numerous launches as well as about 50 Kerbals on Laythe. I can't be bothered relaunching those missions from scatch but I don't feel that editing them back there is in any way cheating. The rest of my stuff could probably use a refresh anyway.

Save file incompatability is unfortunate but hardly a major problem when editing them is so straightforward, plus if it brings new features, hopefully they'll be well worth the inconvenience.

[Naten]

This thread has more views than the challenge submission guidelines

Shows something.

[Fel]

ISA Mapsat doesn't work that way. It actually DOES scan the surface, using an adjustable number of scanlines. It comes with no pregenerated map textures and no database of locations (it has a database of maximum and minimum altitudes for each planet, however).

That's most of why it's so neat: Saving the raw scan data allows you to generate maps of more or less an arbitrary size. I used to do that to check the fine resolution of my scans, generating huge maps to pore over while zoomed in.

Thing is, it does not "Scan the surface". What it does do is "Uncover the Map."

It has a database of all the locations of anomalies because it reads their location directly from the game, and it only checks the location of the device with the ISA_MapSat part which then is used to say "Okay, this is close enough so we'll show it now". (Same goes with terrain, not really scanning, just reading data).

FYI ON SAVE COMPATIBILITY

If you "clean" your saves to remove everything except the part location information (no MODULE, no RESOURCES, no EVENT data or such), the game will automatically load all of that back in. I had a "Jeb's Magic Turbine" craft (was it 0.17?) loaded into 0.19 using a similar approach, and crafts aren't much different than saves (just a few extra pieces of information).

Edited July 4, 2013 by Fel

[Tiron]

Thing is, it does not "Scan the surface". What it does do is "Uncover the Map."

It has a database of all the locations of anomalies because it reads their location directly from the game, and it only checks the location of the device with the ISA_MapSat part which then is used to say "Okay, this is close enough so we'll show it now". (Same goes with terrain, not really scanning, just reading data).

FYI ON SAVE COMPATIBILITY

If you "clean" your saves to remove everything except the part location information (no MODULE, no RESOURCES, no EVENT data or such), the game will automatically load all of that back in. I had a "Jeb's Magic Turbine" craft (was it 0.17?) loaded into 0.19 using a similar approach, and crafts aren't much different than saves (just a few extra pieces of information).

In a sense, you're right. It's pulling the data from the game, yes. But then IRL scanning satellites pull their data from the Earth. The difference being the data was oh so very analog and not already digital.

ISA doesn't come with a pregenerated map texture that it exposes as you pass over the surface, it uses a series of beams (how many is selectable in the options) that cover a swath 16 degrees wide, centered on your position, that pull the height data for the spot they hit. If they come close enough to an object, it gets saved into the anomaly database.

The point is, there's no way to simply pull a completed map and anomaly database from somewhere. To get it you HAVE to put a ship with an ISA Mapsat dish into orbit, and have it pass over the planet in such a way that its 18 degree swath ends up, at some point, touching every point on the planet. Using a higher orbit does so faster, but with a lower resolution (though you can now mitigate or eliminate that by using more scanning beams...at the expense of rapidly increasing CPU load as you add more).

I tend to do ISA and Kethane mapping simultaneously, but the Kethane scanner doesn't HAVE a swath width. It only scans the point directly beneath you. It's gotten easier to use with the recent updates, however, which changed the scanning to be based on a geodetic hex grid (and some pentagons, of course), so you don't have to somehow hit EVERY point on the planet, but the grid's still pretty fine. It still requires you to take a lower orbit with a finer grid in order to hit everything. The lower orbit makes it take longer. A LOT longer. About 3-4 times longer, generally.

It also seems to me that by your definition it'd be impossible to actually scan a planet, because it's all already data in the game's databases, if not the mod's. But let me ask, what's the practical difference between a beam that pulls data directly from the game's heightmap, and measuring the beam's return time to determine the distance? Sure it's more accurate. And probably faster. And gets you the height directly rather than a database of relative heights. But the practical effect is the same. You're basically pointing a radar dish(With a massive swath) at the planet and making a map based on the result.

Unfortunately, you can't at present get the data from the mapper via an uplink, you have to be sitting in the ship with the dish in order to collect the data...which is most of what's so annoying about it. You have to leave the game running with your mapping probe focused for hours of realtime. I'd just rather minimize how much of that I have redo, because it's really...not that fun. But it makes other things easier and more fun sooo...

[Fel]

Rather than respond to your explanation (which is accurate, I'm not debating that), let me state my position.

ISA "magically knows" the location of the Satellite to infinite precision. The dish "Magically Knows" the exact position it needs to be oriented in order to have "100% Precision" onto the exact spot it is roaming over. Note that you can spin the satellite like crazy, have an absurd orbit, and it still gets the precise locations "scratching off" the map underneath.

(And before the protest, usually ground radar works in conjunction with the on board systems to maintain the exact positioning of the satellite)

The point is, it is impossible to get a different map no matter how hard you try (Yes, the scratches are different, but not the map.) I mean, before mapping, the cartographers even decide exactly where the hemisphere separation point is! And with 100% accuracy on a single pass no matter what your orbit, the 100% "I can see the anomaly with magical detection tools" [i mean, kethane makes even less sense. Ground penetrating radar from space?]... there is zero distortion, zero difference...

*And yes, you can get an ISA map without having a sat; ISA uses that interface.

double[] coordFixed = coordFix(lon2,lat2);
Vector3d rad = QuaternionD.AngleAxis(coordFixed[0], Vector3d.down)*QuaternionD.AngleAxis(coordFixed[1], Vector3d.forward)*Vector3d.right;
double elev = vessel.mainBody.pqsController.GetSurfaceHeight(rad) - radius;

That is it, I believe.

The point is, there's no way to simply pull a completed map and anomaly database from somewhere.

Okay, wrong.

	private void createAnomalyFilter()
	{
		CelestialBody[] planetoids = FlightGlobals.Bodies;
		foreach(CelestialBody planetoid in planetoids)
		{
			Transform[] childlist = planetoid.GetComponentsInChildren<Transform>();
			foreach(Transform child in childlist)
			{
				if(!anomalyList.ContainsKey(child))
				{
					{
						anomalyList.Add(child,planetoid.name);
						//double[] coords = coordFix(planetoid.GetLongitude(child.position),planetoid.GetLatitude(child.position));
						//print (planetoid.name+"\t"+child.name+"\t"+child.GetType()+"\t"+Math.Round(coords[1],1)+"°\t"+Math.Round(coords[0],1)+"°\t"+Math.Round (planetoid.GetAltitude(child.position),1)+"m");
					}
				}
			}
		}

ISA DOES PULL, anomaly data directly from the game.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Fel

[Tiron]

Rather than respond to your explanation (which is accurate, I'm not debating that), let me state my position.

ISA "magically knows" the location of the Satellite to infinite precision. The dish "Magically Knows" the exact position it needs to be oriented in order to have "100% Precision" onto the exact spot it is roaming over. Note that you can spin the satellite like crazy, have an absurd orbit, and it still gets the precise locations "scratching off" the map underneath.

(And before the protest, usually ground radar works in conjunction with the on board systems to maintain the exact positioning of the satellite)

The point is, it is impossible to get a different map no matter how hard you try (Yes, the scratches are different, but not the map.) I mean, before mapping, the cartographers even decide exactly where the hemisphere separation point is! And with 100% accuracy on a single pass no matter what your orbit, the 100% "I can see the anomaly with magical detection tools" [i mean, kethane makes even less sense. Ground penetrating radar from space?]... there is zero distortion, zero difference...

*And yes, you can get an ISA map without having a sat; ISA uses that interface.

double[] coordFixed = coordFix(lon2,lat2);
Vector3d rad = QuaternionD.AngleAxis(coordFixed[0], Vector3d.down)*QuaternionD.AngleAxis(coordFixed[1], Vector3d.forward)*Vector3d.right;
double elev = vessel.mainBody.pqsController.GetSurfaceHeight(rad) - radius;

That is it, I believe.

Okay, wrong.

	private void createAnomalyFilter()
	{
		CelestialBody[] planetoids = FlightGlobals.Bodies;
		foreach(CelestialBody planetoid in planetoids)
		{
			Transform[] childlist = planetoid.GetComponentsInChildren<Transform>();
			foreach(Transform child in childlist)
			{
				if(!anomalyList.ContainsKey(child))
				{
					{
						anomalyList.Add(child,planetoid.name);
						//double[] coords = coordFix(planetoid.GetLongitude(child.position),planetoid.GetLatitude(child.position));
						//print (planetoid.name+"\t"+child.name+"\t"+child.GetType()+"\t"+Math.Round(coords[1],1)+"°\t"+Math.Round(coords[0],1)+"°\t"+Math.Round (planetoid.GetAltitude(child.position),1)+"m");
					}
				}
			}
		}

ISA DOES PULL, anomaly data directly from the game.

None of which helps me in recreating my Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus maps in the event they change in 0.21, does it?

[Fel]

None of which helps me in recreating my Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus maps in the event they change in 0.21, does it?

Based off the interfaces, yes you CAN create a plugin that automatically generates the maps for any body without being there. If you can program, it wouldn't take much to recreate them.

[Tiron]

Based off the interfaces, yes you CAN create a plugin that automatically generates the maps for any body without being there. If you can program, it wouldn't take much to recreate them.

A teeny bit. I'm really a hardware dork, so my training and experience in programming are...minimal, at best.

[HAL777300]

Probably not. I don't think that the devs would make the new version wipe your saves, otherwise they would have a lot of angry players on their hands... unless of course this is what they've done previously. I just got on KSP, so I don't know.

Also, can someone post the URL to a site where I can get Mechjeb for 0.20.2? As I said, I'm kind of new to this stuff, so can anyone help?

[rryy]

Probably not. I don't think that the devs would make the new version wipe your saves, otherwise they would have a lot of angry players on their hands... unless of course this is what they've done previously. I just got on KSP, so I don't know.

Also, can someone post the URL to a site where I can get Mechjeb for 0.20.2? As I said, I'm kind of new to this stuff, so can anyone help?

They've had to do this for the 0.17-0.18 transition, but it hasn't happened since, and with the known changes coming up in 0.21, it doesn't seem likely this update.

Here is MechJeb.

[Guest]

They've had to do this for the 0.17-0.18 transition, but it hasn't happened since, and with the known changes coming up in 0.21, it doesn't seem likely this update.

Or you could go by what Harv said earlier in this thread...

While we've been able to maintain compatibility over the last couple of updates, unfortunately this one isn't such a case. The new crew management system changed the format for saving crews (to something much better), and the new format isn't compatible with the old version. Instead of risking breaking things even more by writing some sort of upgrade logic, we decided it was better to just break compatiblity and start fresh.

This also gives us a nice opportunity to do other tweaks that we can't usually do, exactly because they tend to break saves. Because we're going to break it anyway, we can push in a lot of other little tweaks that wouldn't have gone in otherwise, so hopefully they will make it worthwhile.

You can always manually edit your save so it matches the new format, but that can cause other issues, so we really don't recommend it.

Stay tuned for a dev blog soon about new things that we got to add because we decided to break compatiblity.

Cheers

[Kerbol Prime]

Or you could go by what Harv said earlier in this thread...

That's unfortunate. I'll have to start new I guess. Will crafts be broken as well?