[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[NathanKell]

Yeah, what's the point of separate "LiquidFuel," "Oxidizer," "Xenon," and "MonoPropellant" resources? Why not just have one "BurnyStuff" resource? And one fuel tank too, that would really cut down the part list.

On a more serious note, humans die after minutes without oxygen, days without water, and weeks without food. This means that your spaceplane, for instance, *needs* to pack Oxygen, but could get away with not bringing water or food. On a tight mass budget, that *matters.*

[Agathorn]

Why do these resource mods complicate the issue with multiple components? They spend so much programming (and add multiple parts) to model consumption/recycle rates and spawn so many debates. Why not satisfy the resource need and simplify the issue with a 'all-in-one' Life Support container that containers whatever it is that a Kerbal needs to survive. One part, one resource, to represent all the LS balance the crew needs to consume/resupply or recycle. If you are running out of O2 is it a game concern that you still have room for 3 days of garbage? The fact you need a return or a resupply is the game issue. KSP has enough parts and debates about 'how much does 3 days of water in zero gravity really weight?'.

Why are you even bothering to post in this mod's thread if you don't like what it does?

[jrandom]

"I'd love this realism mod if it wasn't for all the darned realism!"

[T_S_Kimball]

It works for me with the 0.9 pre-release #2

But expect an update for the recover vessel credits

For the updated Career, something will need to be done about the 'recover a stranded Kerbal' missions. Even if in orbit around Kerbin, the poor thing will probably die just from Oxygen/Electricity.

A temporary workaround (I think) should be to not accept those missions for now, as the Kerbal will spawn once accepted.

[jpkerman]

Yeah, what's the point of separate "LiquidFuel," "Oxidizer," "Xenon," and "MonoPropellant" resources? Why not just have one "BurnyStuff" resource? And one fuel tank too, that would really cut down the part list.

On a more serious note, humans die after minutes without oxygen, days without water, and weeks without food. This means that your spaceplane, for instance, *needs* to pack Oxygen, but could get away with not bringing water or food. On a tight mass budget, that *matters.*

Good points, but KSP did start with just a single catch-all 'Liquid Fuel' when I got into the game. I still wonder what it matters to the over all game if I have a bit of oxidizer left when the Liquid fuel runs out. To Jeb "Engines no go whoosh" is all that matters.

I remember the point being made many versions ago that 'this is not orbiter' in many of the forum responses for a more complex simulation of physics and aerodynamics.

In the example you cite, A single container of life support for 1 kerbal in a spaceplane tweaked for 3 days would represent your 'more O2-little bit of water-and a snack' balance without adding 3 separate resource bars to the display. If mass matters, make a tweakable for 'Basic, Standard' Extended' and change the mass for your craft concerns but only have 1 bar in the Resource panel instead of 6.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jpkerman

[BananaDealer]

Why do these resource mods complicate the issue with multiple components? They spend so much programming (and add multiple parts) to model consumption/recycle rates and spawn so many debates. Why not satisfy the resource need and simplify the issue with a 'all-in-one' Life Support container that containers whatever it is that a Kerbal needs to survive. One part, one resource, to represent all the LS balance the crew needs to consume/resupply or recycle. If you are running out of O2 is it a game concern that you still have room for 3 days of garbage? The fact you need a return or a resupply is the game issue. KSP has enough parts and debates about 'how much does 3 days of water in zero gravity really weight?'.

Troll post is troll.

[ExplorerKlatt]

For the updated Career, something will need to be done about the 'recover a stranded Kerbal' missions. Even if in orbit around Kerbin, the poor thing will probably die just from Oxygen/Electricity.

A temporary workaround (I think) should be to not accept those missions for now, as the Kerbal will spawn once accepted.

The mod author covered this a few posts back, like a page or two.

In a nutshell, the mod doesn't recognize the kerbal until the first time it is loaded (in physics range).

[jpkerman]

Why are you even bothering to post in this mod's thread if you don't like what it does?

I like what it does, I just do not like the impact on the resource panel. That is why I posted here. I delete the individual component tanks and just use the 3-in-1 tanks.

[TaranisElsu]

Good points, but KSP did start with just a single catch-all 'Liquid Fuel' when I got into the game. I still wonder what it matters to the over all game if I have a bit of oxidizer left when the Liquid fuel runs out. To Jeb "Engines no go whoosh" is all that matters.

I remember the point being made many versions ago that 'this is not orbiter' in many of the forum responses for a more complex simulation of physics and aerodynamics.

In the example you cite, A single container of life support for 1 kerbal in a spaceplane tweaked for 3 days would represent your 'more O2-little bit of water-and a snack' balance without adding 3 separate resource bars to the display. If mass matters, make a tweakable for 'Basic, Standard' Extended' and change the mass for your craft concerns but only have 1 bar in the Resource panel instead of 6.

The reasons for the three separate resources include (but are not limited to):

1. More realism
   
2. Resources recycle using different processing with different resulting efficiencies. It is currently set up so that you can recapture 90% of the water, but only ~86% of the oxygen.
   
3. In-situ resource collection. NASA has figured out how to extract Oxygen from the lunar regolith (dirt)(not economically yet though) and there might be some water there, but you definitely won't find any food there.
   

Did you know that they do not ship any oxygen up to the ISS? They only ship water and food. Water is safer to deal with and they use electrolysis to get the necessary oxygen. And they use the Sabatier recycling process to recapture some of the oxygen from the carbon dioxide the crew is exhaling. It outputs water and methane. They are talking about using the methane (which is waste right now) to fuel the return trip from Mars.

So imagine that, you are breathing out something that could be converted to fuel to power a space craft.

[ExplorerKlatt]

I like what it does, I just do not like the impact on the resource panel. That is why I posted here. I delete the individual component tanks and just use the 3-in-1 tanks.

I do agree with you on the resource panel impact, but I wouldn't want the mod dumbed down or simplified just because of that.

Have you tried alternate resource panel? Excellent mod. I have it set to hide all the LS resources until they hit critical levels.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ExplorerKlatt

[T_S_Kimball]

The mod author covered this a few posts back, like a page or two.

In a nutshell, the mod doesn't recognize the kerbal until the first time it is loaded (in physics range).

Oops. That's what I get for skimming backwards in time on too many threads.

I started getting curious about the game again recently, but decided to hold for 0.24 before starting the mod-fetching.

Edited July 18, 2014 by T_S_Kimball

[jpkerman]

"So imagine that, you are breathing out something that could be converted to fuel to power a space craft. "

I thought we were all breathing out greenhouse gases and threatening the planet. I much prefer your version.

I can understand the appeal of realism in a simulation. I like the Tac-Life Support Mod. I just wanted (aside from the debate on the storage space requirements of dehydrated food) to mention that old time adage about 'keep it simple' and sometimes, 'less is more'. I was hoping you might consider a simplified part.

But it is late where I exist and I must work in the morning, so I bid you Adieu. I shall sleep tonight and dream about exhaling rocket fuel.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jpkerman

[NathanKell]

jpkermin: Sounds like this in the Dev forum might well be the mod you're looking for.

[jpkerman]

I do agree with you on the resource panel impact, but I wouldn't want the mod dumbed down or simplified just because of that.

Have you tried alternate resource panel? Excellent mod. I have it set to hide all the LS resources until they hit critical levels.

Have not come across that, so many mods, so little time. Thanks I'll look it up.

[jpkerman]

jpkermin: Sounds like this in the Dev forum might well be the mod you're looking for.

Thanks, I will look into that also. There are certainly many fine and fair folk among this forum, and only a few who are not.

[JeffreyCor]

Any news on .24 comparability?

I'm having issues with this on 64 bit .24. 3 attempts have all resulted in crash which has been resolved by removing TAC-LS. Of course it is unknown if the problem is specific to this or an interaction with another mod.

[TaranisElsu]

I'm having issues with this on 64 bit .24. 3 attempts have all resulted in crash which has been resolved by removing TAC-LS. Of course it is unknown if the problem is specific to this or an interaction with another mod.

And where is your log file? Please post it somewhere that I can see it. Also, are you using TACLS 0.8 or one of the 0.9 pre-releases? What was the last thing(s) you did before it crashed? Which scene(s)? How am I supposed to help when given so little information?

Sorry if this comes across kind of mean. It is not intended that way. I just get frustrated sometimes because I really try to help but am usually given so little information. And not just sometimes, *most* times. The log file reveals a lot of helpful information. You should also try looking in it and see if you can figure out the problem . Also, when tracking down problems, I usually run with the debug window open (Alt+F2) so that I can see the errors as they happen.

I have done some testing with 0.24, and have fixes for the couple minor issues that I saw, none of which involved a crash. A new pre-release of 0.9 built against 0.24 is coming soon^TM

[JeffreyCor]

TACLS 0.9Pre2. When testing on its own there is no issue. When used in conjunction with others that have been tested to be working together, when loading or starting a new game when the spaceport screen is loading it remains black and get a crash window. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2cg7514me8myzuz/output_log.txt

[TaranisElsu]

TACLS 0.9Pre2. When testing on its own there is no issue. When used in conjunction with others that have been tested to be working together, when loading or starting a new game when the spaceport screen is loading it remains black and get a crash window. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2cg7514me8myzuz/output_log.txt

Line 16565 is where it starts loading the space center scene: "[HighLogic]: =========================== Scene Change : From MAINMENU to SPACECENTER ====================="

Shortly afterwards, you have several exceptions (NullReferenceException's) that seem related to TweakableEverything, specifically TweakableEVA. Check to see if that has any updates? And/or try removing just that mod and see if it fixes it. Or even just the TweakableEVA part of the mod.

Also, you should update NEAR again. ferram posted a fix recently for an unrelated error that I see in your log file.

[ExplorerKlatt]

I was just looking at TweakableEverytjing and can confirm that it has an update that fixes an error with EVA

[Bizz Keryear]

One thing that has to take in consideration is that, if you have a Kerbal rescue mission, that they start off with a reasonable amount of resources...

So a capsule with a battery (maybe solar panel) and enough food and stuff to last a few days / weeks / month / years (cause I heard you might up ending rescuing Kerbals from beyond Jool) would be nice.

But I actually have no idea how to determinate how much stuff to give them... anyway as fast solution you might give them too much and working on that problem later...

That said I now try to rescue one ... hopefully he will no die while I am trying.

[JeffreyCor]

I was just looking at TweakableEverytjing and can confirm that it has an update that fixes an error with EVA

That update was already installed. For some reason this mod and TweakableEverything don't seem to get along, ie each works without the other. I'll post over there so you are both aware of the issue so both great mods can become more friendly to each other

[toadicus]

TaranisElsu, I got JefferyCor's report and did a little digging. Here's a cross-post from my TE thread.

There seems to be a compatibility issue between this and TAC-LS 0.9 Pre 2. Each one seems to work fine without the other, but when both are installed sadness follows. I posted over there as well. Hopefully these two mods can become friends again

JefferyCor, unless you've got a version of TACLS that I don't see and that isn't actually called 0.9 Pre 2 and dated 8 days ago, the problem is on his end. CrewRoster changed names in the assembly and he's getting a TypeLoadException during SpaceCenterManager::Start() because the old binary isn't compatible with KSP 0.24. TaranisElsu will need to update his code for the CrewRoster changes (I hear it's called KerbalRoster now) before TACLS will start up correctly.

It's a little deceptive, because a lot of the TACLS functionality does appear to start up correctly, but there is at least the one definite incompatibility there.

Hope that helps!

[enneract]

Yep, 0.9 Pre2 does not work in .24. It doesn't complain, but only lack of power can kill crew, LS doesn't drain power, and resources being added to pods is spotty at best.

[Spyre2000]

Under .24 I notice the Kerbals have no supplies when they go EVA and it gives warning they are out as soon as they leave the ship. They don't seem to die from this lack of supplies either.