[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[futrtrubl]

Thanks, all. I have 0.125 m ones. C extractor, sabatier, water purifier and water splitter. I guess a few months more and RTGs will decay below the minimal sustainable power.

Unless you have a mod that adds RTG decay they wont.

[lajoswinkler]

I do. That's the fun part.

[Snarfster]

Um.... "absolutely arbitrary density for water"?

All of my calculations and sources are available:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing

Lines 101-102:

Water                   kg/m^3      kg/L
Density (liquid)         0.001       1            @ 4°C / 100 kPa

That should be the commonly accepted value, and should be what the community resource pack (CRP) and other mods use.

Starting at line 219, I laid out all of the math and numbers behind my parts. As WuphonsReach said, and discussed a couple pages ago, I might have the amount of usable space within the containers set a little too high, but the density of each resource and ratios between them should all be correct.

Also, I did not use the "5 units per liter instead of 1 unit per liter". If you do, you will end up with way too much per container. I think you should have divided the 1600 units of LiquidFuel by 5 to get 320 liters. Then use that to figure out how much food, water, and oxygen:

Food: 320 Liters * 47.20% = 151.04 units

Water: 320 Liters * 31.20% = 99.84 units

Oxygen: 320 Liters * 21.61% = 69.152 Liters * 221.135 (compressed @ 0°C / 20 MPa (~197.4 atm or 2900 psi)) = 15,291.91 units

Um... how did I end up with twice as much when it sounded like you were starting from 8000 liters?

@WuphonsReach, have you seen the "Balance Check" section in my spreadsheet starting at line 376? What do you think about the numbers there?

Alright, I gave your sheet a good look and calculated the volume of my tank. It has a volume of 8800 and a few litres, but let's say 8000 to keep it in line with the stock tank it's based on.

So if I take the ratios from your sheet am I correct in saying it will contain:

3776 Food

2496 Water

382296.46 Oxygen

This would make for about 2581 days of life support for the tank.

(It sounds about right with the full tank tanking 8000 Water).

Edited March 16, 2015 by Snarfster

[hab136]

I do. That's the fun part.

That sounds neat. Is it Realistic RTGs? (only one I could find after some quick Googling)

[lajoswinkler]

Yes, that's the one.

[WuphonsReach]

So I've been poking around in the MKS/OKS storage parts:

6700 days of life support supplies

TAC/LS does it in 4.8t

MKS/OKS does it in 4.0t

The two mods basically agree on how much dry:wet mass ratio there should be for 250cm storage. So I withdraw my suggestion that storage within the TAC/LS components is too good. The smaller parts might still need to be trimmed a bit (especially the really small parts) in capacity, but I'm comfortable with the 250cm units compared to MKS/OKS.

I think the bigger issue is that the various recyclers are just too massive for the benefit that they provide. I suggest targeting the 125cm units at 3 kerbals and the 250cm units at 9 kerbals and drastically cutting the mass of the parts by a factor of 6x-10x . A good balance point might be that the 250cm parts are 2x the mass of the 125cm parts, while providing 3x the benefit.

Air Filter 125cm = 1.0t -> 0.25t

CE 125cm = 5.0t -> 0.45t

Sabatier 125cm = 5.3t -> 0.5t

Water Purifier 125cm = 3.0t -> 0.3t

Water Splitter 125cm = 3.4t -> 0.5t

CE 250cm = 5.5t -> 0.9t

Sabatier 250cm = 6.0t -> 1.0t

Water Purifier 250cm = 3.5t -> 0.6t

Now for a 9-ship crew on a 4000 day mission, or 36k kerbal-days of supplies, you would need 25.8 tones of life support supplies. Or you pack along about 1.5t of recycling components along with the power sources needed and cut your water/oxygen requirements by a large factor.

[Yemo]

[...]

I think the bigger issue is that the various recyclers are just too massive for the benefit that they provide. I suggest targeting the 125cm units at 3 kerbals and the 250cm units at 9 kerbals and drastically cutting the mass of the parts by a factor of 6x-10x . A good balance point might be that the 250cm parts are 2x the mass of the 125cm parts, while providing 3x the benefit.

Air Filter 125cm = 1.0t -> 0.25t

CE 125cm = 5.0t -> 0.45t

Sabatier 125cm = 5.3t -> 0.5t

Water Purifier 125cm = 3.0t -> 0.3t

Water Splitter 125cm = 3.4t -> 0.5t

CE 250cm = 5.5t -> 0.9t

Sabatier 250cm = 6.0t -> 1.0t

Water Purifier 250cm = 3.5t -> 0.6t

Now for a 9-ship crew on a 4000 day mission, or 36k kerbal-days of supplies, you would need 25.8 tones of life support supplies. Or you pack along about 1.5t of recycling components along with the power sources needed and cut your water/oxygen requirements by a large factor.

That is basically what I did in my SETI BalanceMod (link in my signature, I posted about those changes somewhere here in this thread a while ago).

From memory, that is how it looks like with SETI installed:

All 1.25m converters adjusted for 3 kerbals and mass adjusted to 0.48t (not sure I did something to the AirFilter, isnt 0.25t too low?).

All 2.5m converters still at 9 kerbal support and mass adjusted to 1.44t.

I also adjusted the Universal Storage Converter wedges to support 1 kerbal and have a mass of 0.16t.

Converters, which were present in one mod but not the other one were added.

The TAC ls Sabatier formula was changed to the real Sabatier Reaction formula, using Hydrogen (thus needs the CommunityResourcePack or at least its Hydrogen definition)

This rebalance comes on top (but independent) of the standard SETI approach of replacing VAB part clutter with procedural parts, so there is only 1 procedural life support tank in SETI instead of the plethora of tanks with standard TAC ls.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Yemo

[Yemo]

While working on mod integration for the SETI-BalanceMod I once again hit the ec definition bump.

There are a lot of mods with different ec assumptions, so I asked in the CommunityResourcePack-Thread about an effort to standardize it, any input from you guys is very welcome!

[ctbram]

Where is the damn link?

[eightiesboi]

Where is the damn link?

I don't know if the links have been recently damned (or sanctified, for that matter); however, if you are referring to the download links to TAC-LS, they are on the first page, in the first post, obfuscated under the heading: "Download the latest version".

If you mean some other damn links, like links to other threads or sausage links or a golf course, then more information about which specific damn links you are looking for would be helpful. Asking nicely wouldn't hurt either.

(PS - TaranisElsu, can we get Holy Water modules? For space vampires? Someone saw a Vorvon hanging around my space station. )

[Scathalh]

Nice idea.

Maybe you can implement some difficult levels and make it more flexible.

I prefer a module, which enables TAC for a vessel / station or add a setting menu (usefull for casual gamer).

Edited March 27, 2015 by Scathalh

[Mapoko]

In some sceenshots I did see greenhouse for a station. Is it somewhere in the 270 pages back or it is another mod. Also does it add food for TAC LS ? I am building a huge carrier that will have no intention of going back to Kerbin. I can recycle water and oxygen, but need food source.

[WuphonsReach]

In some sceenshots I did see greenhouse for a station. Is it somewhere in the 270 pages back or it is another mod. Also does it add food for TAC LS ? I am building a huge carrier that will have no intention of going back to Kerbin. I can recycle water and oxygen, but need food source.

MunSeeker's greenhouse -

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-90-MunSeeker-Mk1-Greenhouse-%28TAC-Life-Support-0-10-1-add-on%29-Update-Nov-1-2014

or

https://github.com/MunSeeker/Greenhouse-Mk1

A single greenhouse supports 3 kerbals max and converts the waste products back into food/H2O/O2. So it competes slightly with the various TAC-LS components. The big benefit is that it can translate Waste -> Food which the TAC-LS recyclers do not do.

The downside is that it is a very heavy part (6t), but that's a problem with all of the recyclers.

[Yemo]

In some sceenshots I did see greenhouse for a station. Is it somewhere in the 270 pages back or it is another mod. Also does it add food for TAC LS ? I am building a huge carrier that will have no intention of going back to Kerbin. I can recycle water and oxygen, but need food source.

You could take a look at the SETI-Greenhouse.

When you use the greenhouse, you need 10% of the usual water and 20% of the usual amount of food, everything else is recycled by that one component.

And of course EC, depending on the mods you have installed (eg BackgroundProcessing, which is highly recommended).

So you do not need additional recyclers.

2 greenhouse versions are available, 2.5m for 1 kerbal (2 tons) and 3.75m for 3 kerbals (6 tons).

Edited March 29, 2015 by Yemo

[magnemoe]

MunSeeker's greenhouse -

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-90-MunSeeker-Mk1-Greenhouse-%28TAC-Life-Support-0-10-1-add-on%29-Update-Nov-1-2014

or

https://github.com/MunSeeker/Greenhouse-Mk1

A single greenhouse supports 3 kerbals max and converts the waste products back into food/H2O/O2. So it competes slightly with the various TAC-LS components. The big benefit is that it can translate Waste -> Food which the TAC-LS recyclers do not do.

The downside is that it is a very heavy part (6t), but that's a problem with all of the recyclers.

Are the recyclers too heavy? They look to be the same quality as the ones on IIS, who I doubt uses so heavy ones.

Again its add to the gameplay, you want to use recyclers on bases and major ships, not on taxis and landers. Yes you can store the waste products for later processing.

Note that this does not include the greenhouse who is more on the light side

[Yemo]

Are the recyclers too heavy? They look to be the same quality as the ones on IIS, who I doubt uses so heavy ones.

Again its add to the gameplay, you want to use recyclers on bases and major ships, not on taxis and landers. Yes you can store the waste products for later processing.

Note that this does not include the greenhouse who is more on the light side

Imho recyclers should be used for long range vessels and distant, part time occupied stations or bases which do not get enough sunlight due to slow planetary/moon rotations.

And permanent stations/bases with enough sunlight would use greenhouses.

That is the setting for which the SETI-Greenhouse is designed for especially when used together with BackgroundProcessing and the SETI-BalanceMod.

[Mapoko]

Thank you ! I will look into those and pick one. Tonnage is not really a problem, compared to what my total weight will be. And for 20, I guess it will be reduced to 18 I will need 6 of them.

For visual reasons can I use both greenhouses ? Meaning what if the cupola on this picture was also part of the greenhouse

Also I can not remember where, but possibly in the 100s of pages of stations show off there were disc shaped ones. Maybe like pieces of pizza they were docked to eachother somehow. If they were inflatable - no ty.

1 more thing - Which mod have those huge panels ?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Mapoko

[RoverDude]

@Taranis

Any chance of backing out the whole 'add test subject to every single manned part' config? It's wrecking havoc with MKS/OKS by making unreasonably luxuriant contracts and causing me a few support headaches?

And while I could just tell folks to ignore it or delete the MM config file, we both kinda know how well readme's help with support issues And I'd prefer to not have to start doing a bunch of defensive coding.

Thanks!

[Sandworm]

I'm working on some stockalike, tweakscale-ready, TAC parts. They are still in development but I thought I would mention them here to get some feedback.

Dev thread:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/115126-Stockalike-TAC-Containers-09-04-2015-v0-1

It's basically a revisit of these parts:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/66479-23-Somnambulic-Aerospace-Life-Support-Parts-0-0-1-%2818-Jan%29

[munseeker]

I'm working on some stockalike, tweakscale-ready, TAC parts.

Ohh - nice! That looks like a good inbetween size to the existing tanks.

[TinyPirate]

Hi there! I featured TAC LS in my 2 Minute Mods series. I hope you find this interesting and enjoyable. I've loved this mod for ages and hopefully did it justice (in just over 2 minutes). Feel free to share around and use to promote TAC LS.

[Mapoko]

Hello.

I recently started a new save and I am trying to reduce the part count and stuff, so I am trimming some stuff.

Resource containers are good and all, but have you thought of making them into one container with changeable resources instead ?

Like this small project that peaked my interest and I tried tinkering with it for my own use. [0.23]Cargo Transfer Bags and Tanks(for TAC life support) 0.7

Because I really want to avoid a full page of utility full of basically the same module with just different resources inside.

[Mecripp]

Hello.

I recently started a new save and I am trying to reduce the part count and stuff, so I am trimming some stuff.

Resource containers are good and all, but have you thought of making them into one container with changeable resources instead ?

Like this small project that peaked my interest and I tried tinkering with it for my own use. [0.23]Cargo Transfer Bags and Tanks(for TAC life support) 0.7

Because I really want to avoid a full page of utility full of basically the same module with just different resources inside.

http://s1.postimg.org/cmipxpv25/screenshot47.png

http://s9.postimg.org/ml7kmt4bh/screenshot48.png

I use this so, I don't need some of the parts on the ship it just adds to the pods

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleCommand],#CrewCapacity[1]]:Final
{
        MODULE
	{
		name = TacGenericConverter
		converterName = Air Filter

		// Number of units to convert per day (24 hours)
		// (convert one per second)
		conversionRate = 86400

		// A comma separated list of resources to use as inputs.
		// For each resource, list the resource name and the amount (which
		// is multiplied by the conversionRate)
		inputResources = IntakeAir, 0.477, ElectricCharge, 1

		// A comma separated list of resources to output. Same as above
		// but also specify whether it should keep converting if the
		// resource is full (generating excess that will be thrown away).
		outputResources = Oxygen, 1.0, false

		requiresOxygenAtmo = true
	}
}

        MODULE
	{
		name = TacGenericConverter
		converterName = Carbon Extractor

		// Number of units to convert per day (24 hours)
		conversionRate = 8.4

		// A comma separated list of resources to use as inputs.
		// For each resource, list the resource name and the amount (which
		// is multiplied by the conversionRate)
		inputResources = CarbonDioxide, 1, ElectricCharge, 1000

		// A comma separated list of resources to output. Same as above
		// but also specify whether it should keep converting if the
		// resource is full (generating excess that will be thrown away).
		outputResources = Oxygen, 0.9, false, Waste, 2.218, true
	}
}

        MODULE
	{
		name = TacGenericConverter
		converterName = Fuel Cell
		conversionRate = 3
		inputResources = Oxygen, 3.7215675, Hydrogen, 7.443135
		outputResources = Water, 1, false, ElectricCharge, 18014, true
	}
}

        MODULE
	{
		name = TacGenericConverter
		converterName = Water Purifier

		// Number of units to convert per day (24 hours)
		conversionRate = 8.4

		// A comma separated list of resources to use as inputs.
		// For each resource, list the resource name and the amount (which
		// is multiplied by the conversionRate)
		inputResources = WasteWater, 1, ElectricCharge, 1000

		// A comma separated list of resources to output. Same as above
		// but also specify whether it should keep converting if the
		// resource is full (generating excess that will be thrown away).
		outputResources = Water, 0.9, false, Waste, 6.382, true
	}

[RainDreamer]

Hello.

I recently started a new save and I am trying to reduce the part count and stuff, so I am trimming some stuff.

Resource containers are good and all, but have you thought of making them into one container with changeable resources instead ?

Like this small project that peaked my interest and I tried tinkering with it for my own use. [0.23]Cargo Transfer Bags and Tanks(for TAC life support) 0.7

Because I really want to avoid a full page of utility full of basically the same module with just different resources inside.

http://s1.postimg.org/cmipxpv25/screenshot47.png

http://s9.postimg.org/ml7kmt4bh/screenshot48.png

You should really check Modular Fuel Tank out. It will help you with your stuff, and TAC does have MFT config for use with it.

[Mapoko]

@MeCripp I do not see added mass to those command pods from the filters.

@RainDreamer - it was more of a request to actually change the tanks in the release, but I guess I can simply modify the tanks for personal use reducing it to 3 discs and 3 hex tanks instead of 15+15.

Not sure how to proceed about license, so I guess I will keep em for myself for now.