I'm new. I suck. I NEED help. I really want to enjoy this game...

[giddonah]

So I've been messing around a couple days with this game. The tutorials are cool and completed easily. The scenarios are fun and are completed easily. Try to do something on your own? Apparently this is where the game hates you like you just kicked it's dog.

I've followed youtube videos on rocket design and had the same rockets just tumble, even with SAS on. I loaded the default rockets and had some get into orbit, and others go wildly out of control. THEY'RE THE DAMN DEFAULT DESIGNS WITH SAS. Why the hell are they so hard to control????

I guess the game is still under development like minecraft? Some videos say "as of v.18, but I'm on 20.something. It looks like what was an addon before has been integrated into the game now?

I really just want to be able to have fun with this. How do I have fun with this game? Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Sapphire]

Try using ASAS, not SAS. Press T before launching to turn it on, and T again to turn it off when you start your gravity turn.

[stupid_chris]

The stock designs are dump, don't use them. Now if you really want us to help, you're gonna have to give us more information than just "I tried and it didn't work!" Like screenshots of your rocket and what you did precisely would help.

[Captain Sierra]

Some rules of thumb: ALWAYS use ASAS. Don't waste weight on RCS if you don't absolutely need it (your ship turns faster than molasses in winter and you don't plan on docking), Don't rely too heavily on solid boosters, Bigger is not always better, Struts are your friend (they are the duct tape of this game).

[giddonah]

Ok, to clarify, I've never actually used the SAS module. I've always used the ASAS module. Whether it was my own rocket from scratch, or adding it to a file rocket. Most of the time I'm still having problems. I copied a design off a youtube video part for part. His rocket went interplanetary, mine started tumbling before it left atmosphere. Part for part. Are there differences between versions of the game?

I had one launch with the default z-map satellite rocket go fine until it was time for the gravity turn. I'd toggle SAS off, but my input was met with resistance like SAS was still on. I finally got the rocket to turn to 45 degrees and hit SAS to maintain. It sort of worked. I finally got the satellite in orbit.

If the default rockets suck, how am I supposed to do better if mine just tumble before getting out of atmosphere? What mods are good now? I certainly don't want to use the autopilot mod, that's like cheating but if the game is unplayable without it...

[Cheebsta]

Mechjeb 2 actually is a massive help starting out. It *can* autopilot, but it doesn't have to, and it's better not to let it unless you can already fly, because there are times when it decides to be an autofireball.

ASAS and SAS work a little differently, and there is no reason you can't have both.

Torque power of the command pod also has a lot to do with the agility of the rocket it's stuck to. The unmanned modules don't have a lot.

Some engines offer more control than others too.

Start out simple and small, then work your way up from there so you can see where the problems start to happen.

[stupid_chris]

Stock has terrible rockets trust me, if you want us to help with your rockets falling apart, we need pictures. Likely more struts.

[Sapphire]

^ That, Let's see some pics! F1 to take screenshots, they'll be stored in /Kerbal Space Program/Screenshots wherever you have the game installed.

[AncientAstronaut]

If you really are using stable rocket designs with ASAS, I think the problem lies somewhere between your computer's keyboard and the chair you use for your desk. Build something REALLY simple with ASAS and see if it flies straight.

[Coneshot]

Lets eliminate the ship, build one of these and also pay attention to the staging at the right side:

launch plan:

1.) S.A.S on

2.) Throttle up (shift)

3.) Launch! (spacebar)

4.) hit "D" around 12k alt to start gravity turn to 45 degrees.

5.) Stage when 1st stage is empty

6.) at 35k lay on over to 0 degrees, open your map.

7.) When apoapsis reaches about 75k hit "X" to kill engines.

8.) Coast to about 30 secs prior to apoapsis, then throttle back up to full.

9.) Watch the map for Periapsis to appear on the far side of planet, continue to burn until Periapsis is at 75k.

10.) Congrats, you are in orbit!

[lammatt]

SAS is crap

use ASAS

or MechJeb's SmartASS

[lammatt]

Lets eliminate the ship, build one of these and also pay attention to the staging at the right side:

launch plan:

1.) S.A.S on

2.) Throttle up (shift)

3.) Launch! (spacebar)

4.) hit "D" around 12k alt to start gravity turn to 45 degrees.

5.) Stage when 1st stage is empty

6.) at 35k lay on over to 0 degrees, open your map.

7.) When apoapsis reaches about 75k hit "X" to kill engines.

8.) Coast to about 30 secs prior to apoapsis, then throttle back up to full.

9.) Watch the map for Periapsis to appear on the far side of planet, continue to burn until Periapsis is at 75k.

10.) Congrats, you are in orbit!

whenever someone says turn at blahblahblah altitude to blahblahblah degree... i LOL

why would someone think those numbers are magical?

NO you dont have to follow those BS numbers

you can tilt early or you have to tilt late

it depends on how much thrust weight ratio you can afford at a particular height.

- you have to understand wht the rocket is doing if you burn at higher inclination and vice versa...

ie

if you burn toward the zenith you are using all your thrust to push the vehicle up; if you burn toward the horizon you are using all your thrust to gain horizontal velocity;

if you burn toward the velocity vector you are using you thrust to push forward your vehicle (while some of the thrust is used to counter act the drag and the gravity; so the velocity vector pointer drops; thats why u have to burn at slightly higher inclination when atmosphere is thick)

and when you essentially leave the atmosphere; there's no drag... so you can burn toward the prograde mark to increase your orbital speed

so...my usual launch profile is pretty much like the stock one by Mechjeb which i found pretty fuel efficient... 100% sure way better than those "turn at 15km to 45deg and turn to horizontal burn at 40km" BS

it's like...tilting a slight bit at ~5km and watch closely the Ap and vert. velocity stats to see if they are rising healthily...

if so... turn more

and i always try to burn as close at the prograde mark as i can afford (of cos you judge it by looking at your Ap /vertical speed/time to AP stats) to minimize any steering loss. (tho it's neglecgible most of the time... still...it's better than wasting fuel with those turn at 45km BS)

Edited July 22, 2013 by lammatt

[Nurph]

Parts have mass and inertia. A spinning rocket will want to keep spinning. Try not to make sharp turns in atmosphere, you may just be working the controls too hard.

[soranno]

I have to advise newer players that at least for a little while practice building rockets without any asas at all.

Take a little time to learn how to engineer a balanced controllable rocket rather than just throwing anything together and hoping ASAS can keep it pointing up.

After enough time you may find you neither want nor need asas anymore anyway, which suits just fine as it is mostly broken. Fortunately those days are at an end come the next patch! Hooray for new asas!

[Cheebsta]

whenever someone says turn at blahblahblah altitude to blahblahblah degree... i LOL

why would someone think those numbers are magical?

NO you dont have to follow those BS numbers

you can tilt early or you have to tilt late

it depends on how much thrust you can afford at a particular height.

It also depends on the mass and build of the rocket. Heavier rockets should start their gravity turns higher. Somewhere is indeed a "magic number" that requires the least delta V.

And again, SAS and ASAS are two different things. To say "SAS is crap, use ASAS", you may as well say SAS is crap, use octagonal struts... SAS works only against rolling, ASAS has control of surfaces and gimbals, as well as providing a teeny bit of control torque. They work just fine together, and usually it takes more than one SAS on a really big rocket to get the full effect. One ASAS is fine, so long as the command pod has enough torque, or you've added gimbal engines and/or control surfaces (fins).

[lammatt]

I have to advise newer players that at least for a little while practice building rockets without any asas at all.

Take a little time to learn how to engineer a balanced controllable rocket rather than just throwing anything together and hoping ASAS can keep it pointing up.

After enough time you may find you neither want nor need asas anymore anyway, which suits just fine as it is mostly broken. Fortunately those days are at an end come the next patch! Hooray for new asas!

ya... most of the time... you dont need to turn on SAS during the ascend anyways... unless you are super light weight by which a slightest tab on the WASD makes your nose turns have a gimbal

[Coneshot]

whenever someone says turn at blahblahblah altitude to blahblahblah degree... i LOL

why would someone think those numbers are magical?

NO you dont have to follow those BS numbers

you can tilt early or you have to tilt late

it depends on how much thrust weight ratio you can afford at a particular height.

I wrote those instructions because they work well for this particular rocket. Other rockets will of course have different ascent characteristics. They are a starting point for someone learning to get into orbit. Don't flame me for trying to help get someone started.

[lammatt]

I wrote those instructions because they work well for this particular rocket. Other rockets will of course have different ascent characteristics. They are a starting point for someone learning to get into orbit. Don't flame me for trying to help get someone started.

ya... agree those numbers are good pointer for someone who's getting start...

was just trying to say they arent magical...

[Johnno]

whenever someone says turn at blahblahblah altitude to blahblahblah degree... i LOL

why would someone think those numbers are magical?

NO you dont have to follow those BS numbers

10km altitude is magical because that's where the atmosphere gets quite thin.

45 degrees is magical because according to physics that's where something will go the furthest in a gravitational field if fired.

Combining these two you can get a decent enough launch profile you don't have to a) muck about with and download an autopilot for.

you can tilt early or you have to tilt late

it depends on how much thrust weight ratio you can afford at a particular height.

Indeed. But pitch to 45 degrees at 10km is a universially functional launch profile that will work well enough if your TWR isn't too low.

so...my usual launch profile is pretty much like the stock one by Mechjeb which i found pretty fuel efficient... 100% sure way better than those "turn at 15km to 45deg and turn to horizontal burn at 40km" BS

What if I told you that introducing someone to Mechjeb before they've learned the basics on their own through simple instructions is moreso BS than giving them a universially functional launch profile and letting them learn as they go?

it's like...tilting a slight bit at ~5km and watch closely the Ap and vert. velocity stats to see if they are rising healthily...

if so... turn more

So instead of 10km you turn at 5km, and instead of 45 degrees you turn 'a slight bit' or 'more' ? How is that better or easier for a fresh player to follow? 10km tilt to 45 is exact, much easier to follow and will get the job done. And what's 'rising healthily' ?

and i always try to burn as close at the prograde mark as i can afford (of cos you judge it by looking at your Ap /vertical speed/time to AP stats) to minimize any steering loss. (tho it's neglecgible most of the time... still...it's better than wasting fuel with those turn at 45km BS)

Right, of course you forgot to mention that to do this you have to switch to orbit speed straight off and do continual direction adjustments, rather than one single gravity turn at a set altitude to a set pitch. A new player will for sure waste more fuel chasing their prograde marker than getting into the thin atmosphere (10km) and doing a single gravity turn (45 degrees), going to map mode and following their AP marker.

By the way, there's no need to call someone else's flight profile or way of flying 'BS', repeatedly. It works for some, doesn't work for others. Yes at the end of the day you want to learn TWR and optimal flight profiles, but for a new player a single gravity turn at a set height is much easier. Much much easier.

[Monkeh]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in here yet is if the rockets that go out of control are staying in one piece.

If your rocket breaks apart at a stress point, (say two jumbo fuel tanks stuck on top of each other, see here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/41420-How-to-keep-two-jumbo-fuel-tanks-together ), then the engine will still be burning but you won't have any control over it. Next time you go out of control try throttling down the engines and see if it works. If they carry on firing then they are no longer attached to your command pod and are just freely pushing you onwards.

You can tell at what point this happens as your POV will slide higher up the rocket a little bit. This happened a lot to me and it took me a while to figure out what was hapening, but yeah, try throttling down next time you spin, if nothing happens, add more struts.

[lammatt]

10km altitude is magical because that's where the atmosphere gets quite thin.

45 degrees is magical because according to physics that's where something will go the furthest in a gravitational field if fired.

Combining these two you can get a decent enough launch profile you don't have to a) muck about with and download an autopilot for.

Indeed. But pitch to 45 degrees at 10km is a universially functional launch profile that will work well enough if your TWR isn't too low.

What if I told you that introducing someone to Mechjeb before they've learned the basics on their own through simple instructions is moreso BS than giving them a universially functional launch profile and letting them learn as they go?

So instead of 10km you turn at 5km, and instead of 45 degrees you turn 'a slight bit' or 'more' ? How is that better or easier for a fresh player to follow? 10km tilt to 45 is exact, much easier to follow and will get the job done. And what's 'rising healthily' ?

Right, of course you forgot to mention that to do this you have to switch to orbit speed straight off and do continual direction adjustments, rather than one single gravity turn at a set altitude to a set pitch. A new player will for sure waste more fuel chasing their prograde marker than getting into the thin atmosphere (10km) and doing a single gravity turn (45 degrees), going to map mode and following their AP marker.

By the way, there's no need to call someone else's flight profile or way of flying 'BS', repeatedly. It works for some, doesn't work for others. Yes at the end of the day you want to learn TWR and optimal flight profiles, but for a new player a single gravity turn at a set height is much easier. Much much easier.

LOL....

10 is as magical as 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or 20 orwhatever. (kerbin tropopause is at ~15km according to the ailtimeter in the flight HUD if those color bands mean anything... so you may indeed say any number around that is the magical number)

and anyways...

did i not try to explain the HOW?

iow... telling new player there's an as-if-magical way to do things hinders their learning of the how and why

and indeed... i said i agree 15km ~40deg turn is a good start in my following post

nevertheless thinking those value as magical is nonsense.

Edited July 22, 2013 by lammatt

[stupid_chris]

LOL....

10 is as magical as 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or 20 orwhatever. (kerbin tropopause is at ~15km according to the ailtimeter in the flight HUD if those color bands mean anything... so you may indeed say any number around that is the magical number)

45deg is only magical if there is NO air friction (aka drag). a more realistic value would be around 42 i believe...

and anyways...

did i not try to explain the HOW?

iow... telling new player there's an as-if-magical way to do things hinders their learning of the how and why

and indeed... i said i agree 15km ~40deg turn is a good start in my following post

nevertheless thinking those value as magical is nonsense.

Come on, don't start please. Yes there are magical numbers. Those are called limits, and they come from math formulas, they aren't pulled out from thin air. If you draw curves of efficiency vs. what altitude you start your gravity turn at, and efficiency vs. the angle of your gravity turn and you optimize those functions in a 3D graph, you'll come to a conjunction point in which the two curves come together in a 3D space, that's called the most efficient launch profile. Yes, every craft will have a different most efficient launch profile, but it doesn't move much, and if you round the value, you'll come up to 10km grav turn at 45deg 95% of the time. So yes, there's magical numbers, just as terminal velocity is the magical speed to not go faster than if you won't want to waste fuel. If that displeases you, get angry at maths and make your own 3D graph.

[Cheebsta]

nevertheless thinking those value as magical is nonsense.

I am sure NASA just throws them suckers up there all willy nilly like and hopes they make it.

Also:

[Nasakev]

On what part of the launch plan do things go pear shaped?

Some thoughts: Consider replacing the LV-T30 with the LV-T45. It has slightly less thrust but unlike the LV-T30 has engine gimbaling; meaning when it thrusts it can point in different directions giving you more control. Adding a SAS module in addition to the ASAS one might also help with stability.

[capi3101]

I usually direct new folks to the Historical Missions section of the wiki. They include notes on how to build basic stuff. Senshi's Basic Rocket Design is another good one for just starting out.

Really, we need to see what you've built so far so we can diagnose problems. Some screenshots (F1) would be useful, or the .craft files if you can post them.