[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[Tharios]

Then you just have people leaving the game open overnight, which is a boring way to play the game. I think what we need is to give time a value so that people don't waste decades just timewarping, this could be done by giving the kerbals salaries, or something similar. That way people would be encouraged to actually play the game (to pay for the kerbals or w/e) during the in-game time they would normally spend timewarping.

Let them do it. It's a stupid thing to do, and their "boredom" as a result is their own fault.

Once again...everyone time-warps anyway to get from planet to planet. No one at all just goes at the normal speed to get to Jool, or Moho, or even Eve or Duna.

The research issue will be resolved since it won't be a continuous thing from now on, but the antimatter collection, kethane mining, etc...that will still be subject to it, and nothing can be done about it. Because in your "kerbal salary" scenario, they're still encouraged to time-warp to build up funds, or leave their computer running for the same reason, unless one has to actively pay the kerbals by hitting buttons, which is truly tedious and pointless. It's just the clock-reset from "Lost".

Now...all that said...

If you really want to keep people in the game that way...give Kerbals "lifespans". You don't ever get to keep them forever. You always have to replace them every so often as they "retire". Then you have to actively replenish them on distant bases as they otherwise mysteriously teleport to their version of Tahiti for a long and happy retirement with a big, fat pension.

Space is hard on the body in the best of circumstances, and since Kerbals spend so much more time up there than our own astronauts do, it stands to reason their careers will be shorter. So...maybe just a year or two...with a little random variation for those who "entered the program" younger or older than the norm. Obviously, the long life of nuclear reactors isn't conducive to keeping people active with enough frequency...so shorter Kerbonaut careers. Should do the trick.

Edit: I'm going the heck to bed...

Edited October 17, 2013 by Tharios
That whole stupid "job" thing.

[forsaken1111]

I like the idea of enforced crew rotation, but I also think its a bit beyond the scope of this mod at present.

[Why485]

Willow's post on the advantages/disadvantages of stock vs ISM was really good. Going into this, I was thinking that the best solution would be to just completely use the stock science system as a replacement, but there is one very significant loss in doing that. You lose the reason to build space stations.

That's a pretty big deal because the way science works in KSP right now makes it so that there's no good reason to build space stations or anything permanent due to diminishing returns. What if you merged the two systems? Allow science to be gathered like it always gets gathered in the stock game, but also have the science modules slowly produce science on their own, independent of any science missions you're currently running.

The trick would be to balance the two. It's easy to make either the science lab pointless or doing specific missions pointless, but to me this seems like the best approach and getting the best of both worlds.

[Ratata]

Why not both? Example: three "Tiers" of Research - Tier 1 "Space is Cold" - best Result at the first Report. Tier 2 "Does it get colder if we go higher?" - Best Result after a medium amount of time. Tier 3 "Why is space cold?" - Better results the longer you research it.

[zzz]

slowly produce science

Issue is - players instead of playing and launching expeditions to Jool prefer just sit at launchpad to get all upgrades. Need to give them option to take all upgrades from start if they so desire it or to make every planet give only fixed amount of science. Or just don't care about such players.

just tie the system into the existing KSP science system by making

It means don't use any "slowly produce science". I'm talk about "issue" if someone want to have it.

Edited October 17, 2013 by zzz

[forsaken1111]

Issue is - players instead of playing and launching expeditions to Jool prefer just sit at launchpad to get all upgrades. Need to give them option to take all upgrades from start if they so desire it or to make every planet give only fixed amount of science. Or just don't care about such players.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here, just tie the system into the existing KSP science system by making labs collection points for science data and having parts/upgrades unlocked by spending science like all other parts. If people want all upgrades right away they would be playing sandbox, not career mode, and things will work as normal.

Edited October 17, 2013 by forsaken1111

[BostLabs]

What isn't the purpose, to be simple? I didn't say the game was suppose to be simple, I just see no reason to further complicate the game with 'yet another resource' that does pretty much the same thing as something we already have, and no need to get rude.

.

He wasn't trying to be rude. He was suggesting that the awareness described might be shocking to your understanding on how things work.

Yes, the game is suppose to be challenging, and it is. What it isn't suppose to be is a boring grind. So it's just a fact you'll have to accept. (This phrase is rather hostile for me, but I hope you realize it yourself and decide to say things in a nicer way from now on.)

that is the problem with the written word on a forum. One can color a paragraph with their mindset. You were expecting hostility so that is how you read it. I, on the other hand, didn't read it that way. Perhaps you need to clear your expectations a bit before you try to read something. There are facts that have to be accepted. The physical world has facts like that. No matter how much you flap your bare arms, you are never going to be able to fly like that. That is a fact you have to accept. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Sorry, but that is life.

I thought his side of the conversation was well thought out. He even thanked you for the thought provoking conversation. I would not say he was being hostile at all. But we get out what we want to see/hear from a conversation sometime if we are not watchful of our own mindset. You could take this conversation and think I'm being hostile. I assure you that I am not.

have a a good day.

[forsaken1111]

Another point: What one person considers a 'boring grind' another might think is fair and balenced. Its not for you to say what the game is 'supposed to be'. If a particular mod is too much of a grind to you, simply don't use it. Some people may enjoy it while others do not.

Its okay to have differing opinions.

[Fractal_UK]

Willow's post on the advantages/disadvantages of stock vs ISM was really good. Going into this, I was thinking that the best solution would be to just completely use the stock science system as a replacement, but there is one very significant loss in doing that. You lose the reason to build space stations.

That's a pretty big deal because the way science works in KSP right now makes it so that there's no good reason to build space stations or anything permanent due to diminishing returns. What if you merged the two systems? Allow science to be gathered like it always gets gathered in the stock game, but also have the science modules slowly produce science on their own, independent of any science missions you're currently running.

The trick would be to balance the two. It's easy to make either the science lab pointless or doing specific missions pointless, but to me this seems like the best approach and getting the best of both worlds.

That is, in fact, the plan. The science lab from the mod is not going to appear until relatively late in the tech tree, by which time you will have the capacity to put it them on or around other planets and the science production that you get from them will actually become useful.

I'm not worried about people just placing them on the launch pad and time accelerating to fill out the rest of the tree. Kerbin science production is really slow anyway, so you'd have to spend a long period of time time accelerating on the ground and honestly at that point, they might as well open up the savegame file and edit in the science number they want. Choosing to unlock the tech tree that way would just be a really weird decision.

When you get to the advanced techs, however, the rates do become more competitive so those ongoing science labs are going to be providing you with useful science production. Additionally, any old ships you have will be able to be upgraded when new techs become available meaning that Interstellar will continue to be both a way of generating science and a way of using it.

[Bibblejw]

Yeah, realistically, the whole thing will get much easier as/when they implement currency. Or have any kind of centrally-distributable resources (i.e. being able to fill up AM tanks on the platform from a hold in KSC, or upgrade parts in the VAB.

But I'm aware that I'm dreaming now, so I'll stop.

[Why485]

That is, in fact, the plan. The science lab from the mod is not going to appear until relatively late in the tech tree, by which time you will have the capacity to put it them on or around other planets and the science production that you get from them will actually become useful.

I'm not worried about people just placing them on the launch pad and time accelerating to fill out the rest of the tree. Kerbin science production is really slow anyway, so you'd have to spend a long period of time time accelerating on the ground and honestly at that point, they might as well open up the savegame file and edit in the science number they want. Choosing to unlock the tech tree that way would just be a really weird decision.

When you get to the advanced techs, however, the rates do become more competitive so those ongoing science labs are going to be providing you with useful science production. Additionally, any old ships you have will be able to be upgraded when new techs become available meaning that Interstellar will continue to be both a way of generating science and a way of using it.

Sounds like a plan. I've been following this mod closely for a while but I've always been put off by how roundabout and un-intuitive the research and upgrading part of it was. I was holding off on really getting into the mod with 0.22 around the corner because of all the mods I've seen, this is the one that would benefit the most from an integration with the stock science system. This is as big of a deal to this mod as when stock electric charge was introduced and unified all the parts that were using unique and idiosyncratic electricity plugins.

I'm really looking forward to ISM has in store for KSP. The way ISM works, going from chemical rockets to advanced propulsion systems with a real and logical progression mechanic is what I've always wanted KSP to become. This mod is right up my alley.

[Donziboy2]

Fractal_UK when it comes to upgrading existing ships with say a better generator or reactor, will there be something required other then it just instantly changing as soon as you unlock the tech? Say needing a Kerbal in EVA or a special mechanics module with an EVA Kerbal to do the work?

[Fractal_UK]

Fractal_UK when it comes to upgrading existing ships with say a better generator or reactor, will there be something required other then it just instantly changing as soon as you unlock the tech? Say needing a Kerbal in EVA or a special mechanics module with an EVA Kerbal to do the work?

When you research a "free upgrade tech" then all future parts that you create will be automatically upgraded once they appear on the launch pad. Parts on vessels that have already been launched will not upgrade automatically and you'll have to spend some science to upgrade them, like the old system. I'm currently undecided on whether this should require EVA Kerbals to do. I can see the sense of the idea.

[theSpeare]

I don't like that idea, Fractal. Your current method of upgrading is really great enough - if you followed a one-time-upgrades-all you'll hit that dead end where you no longer need science, something that stock career suffers in. In 0.21 we were encouraged to keep doing science to make sure we could launch a very advanced ship, it was one of the best instances of balancing. Made science fun to do, and fun to hoard.

If you're still doing science lab stuff you should lower all the rates so people are forced to have more and have it in the background. Otherwise the incentive to go pick up science elsewhere is lost.

[Fractal_UK]

I don't like that idea, Fractal. Your current method of upgrading is really great enough - if you followed a one-time-upgrades-all you'll hit that dead end where you no longer need science, something that stock career suffers in. In 0.21 we were encouraged to keep doing science to make sure we could launch a very advanced ship, it was one of the best instances of balancing. Made science fun to do, and fun to hoard.

If you're still doing science lab stuff you should lower all the rates so people are forced to have more and have it in the background. Otherwise the incentive to go pick up science elsewhere is lost.

I wouldn't worry about that at this stage, there simply aren't enough tech nodes to have automatic upgrades for the most advanced techs, meaning that for now you're going to have to do per part upgrades for things like antimatter reactors, warp drives etc. There are only a few techs for which I can fit in automatic upgrades at this stage.

Once new tech nodes can get added, expect them to be expensive. I have no intention of making it trivially easy to get advanced technologies.

[theSpeare]

Yeah, okay I can buy that - super expensive upgrade. When can we see your integration into the career tech tree?

[TheAstronut]

0.22 please, I want to use the tech tree with this.

[Xentoe]

i would suggest to put at least all "base" Technologys in a Technode.

(I mean that you get with the KSP Science the basic parts) And than their Updating, is done with your Science system.

That would be coolst I guess.

(It was ever a bit (sorry) "lame" that you had the AM Reactor, the Warpengene.. simple without science, but it was not possible to "hide" them.

Now you can.

So I would suggest make the the basic systems in a technode (natural all sizelevels, not one for eatch). this should I hope (guess) work.

But how is this when you use the new science nodes and othe rmods to too?

Is that not somehoe incobatible than?

[SeventhArchitect]

*le sigh*

Looks like I'm about to scrap EVERYTHING, and start anew. I need to edit a few fiels, and get started on some things, like sats and research. There is an update! I'm going to tame this update!

Bam! Zoom! Straight to the moon!

[Tharios]

I like the idea of enforced crew rotation, but I also think its a bit beyond the scope of this mod at present.

I honestly don't know. It probably is beyond any mod right now, but if I had the knowledge and skill, I think one of the things I might try first is attaching a resource to individual Kerbals that can't be replenished. I don't think it'd be possible to vary the amount or rate of decline, but I do think it'd be possible to give them a "shelf-life".

[Tharios]

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here, just tie the system into the existing KSP science system by making labs collection points for science data and having parts/upgrades unlocked by spending science like all other parts. If people want all upgrades right away they would be playing sandbox, not career mode, and things will work as normal.

Ah...there...nail, head.

Career mode isn't about getting everything all at once. It's about that arduous, perilous climb to the stars. Sandbox mode is for getting everything all at once.

So how about this, Fractal. Since Career mode is separate now, how about an aspect of the mod that turns off all research and makes all parts fully upgraded from the beginning, for Sandbox mode? Since the two are separate, those who want the challenge go Career, and those who just want to build and fly spiffy ships right off the bat have Sandbox.

I don't know how well that will work from a technical standpoint, but it seems like a good option for a future update at some point.

[Tharios]

i would suggest to put at least all "base" Technologys in a Technode.

(I mean that you get with the KSP Science the basic parts) And than their Updating, is done with your Science system.

That would be coolst I guess.

(It was ever a bit (sorry) "lame" that you had the AM Reactor, the Warpengene.. simple without science, but it was not possible to "hide" them.

Now you can.

So I would suggest make the the basic systems in a technode (natural all sizelevels, not one for eatch). this should I hope (guess) work.

But how is this when you use the new science nodes and othe rmods to too?

Is that not somehoe incobatible than?

I could be wrong...but I think that's the way it's going to work...with upgrades of earlier techs occurring in the same nodes as the base techs of more advanced parts?

So a base nuke reactor of all sizes will be available maybe a 1/4 or 1/3 the way up the tree, along with generators and radiators, and all the other techs would come after, with the upgrades of those prior techs also. Probably Radiators, Reactors, Generators, in that order, i'd think.

That would leave the most advanced techs with no upgrade option in the tree itself, but you would never start with something advanced like the warp drive. You'd still have to research the warp drive at the end, and then also spend science to upgrade it, and probably all the AM tech too. At least, that's what I got out of it.

Edit: Fractal...I do have to say that I think I've gotta jump on board with those who say Labs should be additional drop-off points for full-gain science. It still creates "choke points" in research, but spreads them out a bit and maintains the mod's need for keeping up stations and bases system-wide, apart from AM and power generation.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Tharios
Clarification

[Seyvern]

Okay, let me give you an example of what the plan is:

Let's say you research the Nuclear Propulsion tech. That will give you access to Solid Core Nuclear reactors and Thermal Rockets. Let's say you research a later tech that gives you access to Gas Core Reactors (let's say Metamaterials for now but I haven't actually decided on this finally yet) then the idea is that all future Nuclear Reactors you build in the VAB will automatically be Gas Core designs but if you have older Solid Core still flying in space, you can upgrade them as you could before with the retrofit option.

I'm pretty sure this works in theory but I'm madly working out what I need to do to get the mod properly integrated with 0.22.

Also, I fear I'm going to be short on tech nodes unless I figure out a way to add more.

Why allow them to be upgradeable? After all, the mechanical design of a gas core and a solid core reactor are not at all compatable. Make two sets of parts - gas cores and solid cores. You cant build gas cores until you have the tech, and solid cores that are floating around up there are obsolete. Doesn't mean you can't continue to use them, or even build them, just means they aren't state of the art. And if you build your ship correctly, you can detatch the obsolete reactor and plug in a new one if you get around to it or have some pressing need.

Getting rid of the whole 'upgrading by button push' paradigm would make the whole thing more solid IMO.

[justmeman117]

Sounds like you have a [KSP]\GameData\GameData\WarpPlugin set up, that is why you are having problems. All you need to do install the mod is unzip it into the base KSP directory, most mods are set up like that, that's why they have an included GameData folder. You should have two folders in GameData then: [KSP]\GameData\WarpPlugin and [KSP]\GameData\HexCans.

thanks bro, ill try it out

[Tharios]

Why allow them to be upgradeable? After all, the mechanical design of a gas core and a solid core reactor are not at all compatable. Make two sets of parts - gas cores and solid cores. You cant build gas cores until you have the tech, and solid cores that are floating around up there are obsolete. Doesn't mean you can't continue to use them, or even build them, just means they aren't state of the art. And if you build your ship correctly, you can detatch the obsolete reactor and plug in a new one if you get around to it or have some pressing need.

Getting rid of the whole 'upgrading by button push' paradigm would make the whole thing more solid IMO.

Reasonable in the cases of some of the parts...and reasonable enough overall to justify not bothering to upgrade anything at that point. But then the problem becomes that there aren't enough nodes currently to cover all the stock and all the KSP:I tech proper relative placement in the tree.

The only solution I can see to that would be to rebuild the tree from the top down, setting all the parts in order from most advanced to least, and then working from the end to the beginning, packing all the most basic stock techs into the first 3 or 4 nodes and letting the advanced stock parts get a few tiers farther as stock and Interstellar blend together.