[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[willow]

3. turn on max time acceleration

4. go take a nap

In my humble opinion, nothing used as intended in KSP should require step 4.

Hear hear. I also refuse to time accelerate. Right now I have acquired 500 anti matter. Which I believe at my current tech level brings me halfway to the mun. I got here by putting two very large stations in orbit, one has 36 antimatter collectors, the other has 24. I also have a research station that has 12 science labs orbitting kerbin, and 12 science labs in a cluster landed on the mun. I have gathered about 50 science, enough to update 3 radiators.

Yes, I could leave my computer on and time accelerate through the night, but to me this is equivalent to using the edit button on fuel balancer and just launching a ship preloaded with science and anti matter. It's not an accomplishment.

I do like that updating two similar parts twice on different ships costs twice the amount of science. With this mod I find I reuse my craft much more than I would do previously. An upgraded ship, a veteran unit, actually means something. Though admittedly, I haven't acquired enough science to upgrade anything yet, I'm just getting into that mindset.

I suspect the game will be much different if you decide to send a science mission to duna, not that the actual science done there will make a huge difference, but time accelerating through 50 or more days for the journey would fill your coffers. I'm not sure how I feel about that, I think I would not feel the accomplishment...

Here's an idea though. What if the science lab produces science depending on where it is, much like it does now, only much faster, like 100 science in a week or a few days, the amount might vary per destination, easier destinations give less science, the difficult targets give you the most science. But it produces that science only once! So once your science lab is spent you must send another one. The idea is that sending a mission to duna will get you a certain amount of science, leaving the thing in orbit won't give you additional science after that.

Anti matter suffers the same problem. Perhaps a game mechanic could be found where the strategy of just putting up many orbital stations with many collectors stops being the best strategy? Like taking an atmospheric dive into jool, which is dangerous, or something similar with kerbol. But the anti matter thus collected will get you around the kerbol system. Lots of return for making an effort, not for time acceleration.

I agree with Chase that effort should be equated to return, not taking a nap.

[Donziboy2]

Until after 0.22 comes out I cant see any point in Fractal_UK spending time to change the way science works.

Also guys a single AM Collector at 900K around Kerbin will get just almost 4 AM per day.

And engines that use MJ/MW don't need to be directly attached to the reactor/gen. I have a dual DT Vista that has a single 1.25m AM/Gen upgraded and the engines are not directly attached to it.

[IrritationX]

There was talk a while back about a rotating microwave transmitter dish, so it could track the planet. What are the chances of that happening, or does anyone know whether there is a parts mod that includes something that can be used to continuously point a dish at the center of a planet, as the kethane detectors and ISA Mapsat dish does?

I'd like to be able to put one of those on my orbital power stations, so I'm not shooting most of the power out into space for a little under 2/3 of my orbit, and instead direct it at the planet's surface and ships in lower orbits. I've tried using multiple dishes, but since generated power isn't divided among the transmitters it just drains the power faster while simultaneously shooting power where I don't want it to go: into space. At the same time, increasing the number of reactors and generators only increases the amount of power that goes out through the transmitter, instead of solving my power problems.

I know some people are putting large solar arrays into an orbit of Kerbol and beaming power out to all of the planets, but that's not the route I want to go, because I prefer to keep the source of power close to what it's feeding in case something goes awry.

So, any help on solving these issues would be appreciated.

Kudos to all of Fractal, zzz and anyone who has had a hand in developing, expanding and testing this mod. It's great.

[pina_coladas]

Two quick questions...how is it people are attaching multiple engines directly to reactors

And...would I still get full thrust from a given engine, even if multiples are attached to a single reactor, if I only activate one of them at a time?

That was me, I just modified a shiny B9 part with 4 attach nodes into a reactor. And yes, you do get full thrust from a given engine if the others are disabled. You also get full thrust on all of them at once until they spazz out and shut themselves down one at a time, sending your jet into a spin so violent that parts fly off in all directions. I only did it because the thermal turbojets are so tiny...

[Fractal_UK]

Time for a post about thermal mechanics, as progress is now being made on this.

First of all, I want to talk about how generators in this mod work at present. Each generator has a rating when you build it and when you upgrade it that tells you the "percentage of Carnot efficiency" that the generator provides, this Carnot efficiency refers to the percentage of Carnot cycle efficiency it achieves. The Carnot cycle is the type of cycle used by an ideal heat engine, i.e. the most efficient a theoretical heat engine can be. The Carnot efficiency is given by 1-T_C/T_H where T_C is the temperature of a "cold bath" and T_H is the temperature of a "hot bath".

Practical heat engines don't use Carnot cycles. They use (ideally) Eriksen cycles, Rankin cycles, Stirling cycles, Brayton cycles, etc.

So, the total efficiency of the generator (which is what you see on the part display while it is running) is given by this percentage of carnot efficiency parameter (say 24%) multiplied by 1-T_C/T_H.

The hot bath temperature T_H is simply equal to the core temperature of the reactors, which you can look up on the table on the first page of the thread, in the wiki or in the VAB.

At present, the cold bath temperature T_C is arbitrarily set to 500. In future updates, instead of having an arbitrary value for T_C it will instead use the average temperature of your radiators. The key point to take from this if you're less interested in the actual maths of it is simply: by having more radiators to keep your ship cool, the more efficient your electrical generators will be.

Once radiators reach the maximum temperature, they will begin to accumulate heat that they can't dissipate fast enough, so the "WasteHeat" bar in the resource menu is effectively the danger marker - when that gets full: problems!

Fortunately, as always, there are safety features to prevent things becoming too deadly. Once your WasteHeat bar fills up to 99% of maximum, your reactors will perform emergency shutdowns in order to prevent the accumulation of further dangerous waste heat. This is no big deal for antimatter reactors, you can simply restart them once the heat level drops to safe limits. The fission reactors, however, are not designed to be shut down completely but rather operate continuously at, at least, a low power level. They are capable of shutting down but doing so is an emergency procedure and they will then require maintenance to get them working again.

Should you somehow keep generating heat (actually rather difficult with all the safety features) and reach the 100% mark, death and explosions will result.

[Cairan]

You'll see that the static solar panels and the RTGs don't produce any waste heat, for now I think these are too small to be worthy of modelling. The smaller deployable solar satellites generate a decent enough amount of power though so these you'd expect to have some kind of special section of the structure designed for heat radiation, at least. A few gigantors and deployable radiators start to seem entirely reasonable.

I could make it apply to my parts only but I don't really want to give the impression that heat rejection is only important when you put nuclear reactors in space. The ISS has effectively arrays of deployable radiators and they're only for dissipating ~70kW.

In my opinion, heat rejection is one of the biggest features missing from the stock game. It shouldn't be an optional extra, it should be an integral part of space travel. I might add some config file option for turning the feature off completely though.

Well my point is merely two folds. First, when you do implement "heat stroke" damage to all vessels, it would break existing vessels instantly, therefore requiring an user who wants to adopt your mod to get rid of all existing space infrastructure and start again from scratch. If you implement only on vessels which use at least one of your parts, then you enable a transition period in the games of interstellar mod adopters.

Second, all objects in space tend to reach a radiative equilibrium state at one point or another. What generate waste heat is basically the "work" done on the vessel, such as generating electricity, charging and discharging batteries, powering equipment, etc. It seems you use this metric (energy usage) as a basis for waste heat generation. However, it could be assumed that small probe parts already incorporate all the required passive heat dissipation technologies required of them to operate in deep space.

I would also add that there are many methods other than radiators to get rid of heat, such as flash evaporators, heat pipes, just to name those, which could be presumed to already be inside the stock KSP probes and capsules parts.

I do agree with you that heat rejection is a major lack at this point in stock KSP, but that's what mods are for

[forsaken1111]

Very nice, sounds like a good system. I'd still like to see some very slow passive heat dissipation from heat producing parts. If I lose all of my radiators I should be able to operate my reactor in short bursts with a long cooldown period between. Nothing retains heat perfectly after all. Even if it takes weeks to cool down it would be a good emergency option.

[Fractal_UK]

Well my point is merely two folds. First, when you do implement "heat stroke" damage to all vessels, it would break existing vessels instantly, therefore requiring an user who wants to adopt your mod to get rid of all existing space infrastructure and start again from scratch. If you implement only on vessels which use at least one of your parts, then you enable a transition period in the games of interstellar mod adopters.

Second, all objects in space tend to reach a radiative equilibrium state at one point or another. What generate waste heat is basically the "work" done on the vessel, such as generating electricity, charging and discharging batteries, powering equipment, etc. It seems you use this metric (energy usage) as a basis for waste heat generation. However, it could be assumed that small probe parts already incorporate all the required passive heat dissipation technologies required of them to operate in deep space.

I've already added heat generation to stock deployable solar panels. My thinking on this issue is that static solar panels and RTGs are probably small enough that you can dissipate heat with structural parts and it doesn't need to be modelled by me. Once you get up to even small deployable solar panels though then you need to have some kind of dedicated heat radiation system to prevent things getting damaged.

Heat does, however, tend to be generated fairly slowly aboard solar vessels which gives you a large amount of time to react to its accumulation. It's also not something I presently have plans to make occur in the background meaning that people adopting the mod from stock should have the ability to add radiators to any existing ship or space station with docking ports available.

For those who don't want to play with actual heat mechanics, I'll add some kind of settings option to turn off WasteHeat generation all together but if you do play with waste heat, I won't draw a distinction between stock parts and parts from this mod.

Very nice, sounds like a good system. I'd still like to see some very slow passive heat dissipation from heat producing parts. If I lose all of my radiators I should be able to operate my reactor in short bursts with a long cooldown period between. Nothing retains heat perfectly after all. Even if it takes weeks to cool down it would be a good emergency option.

I could possibly model that by just giving all ships a, very very small, mass dependent heat dissipation figure. That way all ships would get rid of a little heat over time without radiators. It'd be better than modelling dissipation for more parts.

[Exposure]

I could possibly model that by just giving all ships a, very very small, mass dependent heat dissipation figure. That way all ships would get rid of a little heat over time without radiators. It'd be better than modelling dissipation for more parts.

While you seem to be considering requests, is there any chance we can get some kind of super mini radiator like say, the static solar panels? As is I feel a bit silly putting radiators meant to deal with megawatts of energy when at best, it's going be dealing with around 4 kilowatts of energy. Maaaybe more if I end up changing the current solar panels on my service module to one of the ones included in the Near Future Propulsion pack.

[NeoAcario]

Fractal_UK

Anyway to prioritize which order resources are displayed under the resource tab? Kind of annoying to not have them in the same order every time. Seems like each launch has a different resource order. I'm sure this has something to do with the build / parent order with individual craft, but I figured I'd ask if there's something quick and easy that could be done.

Or does someone know a mod?

~Steve

[ggibsonjr]

What button do I hit to actually upgrade the parts? I have enough science points but no upgrade option. I get a retrofit option but that doesn't use my science points.

[Fractal_UK]

While you seem to be considering requests, is there any chance we can get some kind of super mini radiator like say, the static solar panels? As is I feel a bit silly putting radiators meant to deal with megawatts of energy when at best, it's going be dealing with around 4 kilowatts of energy. Maaaybe more if I end up changing the current solar panels on my service module to one of the ones included in the Near Future Propulsion pack.

Yeah, you're right, a smaller radiator, probably 62.5cm, is a sensible idea to include.

At the moment, the code I'm using to add waste heat generation isn't compatible with solar panels from other mods but it's possible I will change this in future. It's purely a matter of the optimal way of designing the module loader.

Anyway to prioritize which order resources are displayed under the resource tab? Kind of annoying to not have them in the same order every time. Seems like each launch has a different resource order. I'm sure this has something to do with the build / parent order with individual craft, but I figured I'd ask if there's something quick and easy that could be done.

I'm afraid I don't know of any way to change that, it might be possible but I can imagine the solution being somewhat arcane.

[Tharios]

Is it wrong that I emptied my Astronaut Complex repeatedly, launching every Kerbal with more than 10% stupidity, en masse into a fiery sky-death...just so I could populate my labs with only the best and brightest of the species?

[NeoAcario]

Is it wrong that I emptied my Astronaut Complex repeatedly, launching every Kerbal with more than 10% stupidity, en masse into a fiery sky-death...just so I could populate my labs with only the best and brightest of the species?

I just stick all my dumb-dumbs in miners... and manning refueling stations in the middle of no where. Your method seems too quick and easy on them. I prefer to make the stupid suffer a boring life sitting in the middle of no where.

Oh... and I use a lot of CPU cores.

~Steve

[Galacticruler]

Is it wrong that I emptied my Astronaut Complex repeatedly, launching every Kerbal with more than 10% stupidity, en masse into a fiery sky-death...just so I could populate my labs with only the best and brightest of the species?

Not at all, I did the same thing by loading 92ish of them into one...hmm..."object" and Hyperediting it to orbit, then thrusting towards kerbin as long as I could.(wound up using hyper edit to make it move 7km/s at sea level and they got plumetted into the sea...at 7km/s...)

[Tharios]

I just stick all my dumb-dumbs in miners... and manning refueling stations in the middle of no where. Your method seems too quick and easy on them. I prefer to make the stupid suffer a boring life sitting in the middle of no where.

Oh... and I use a lot of CPU cores.

~Steve

Ah...I've always been the "get-it-done" type. Though you make a valid point, since there aren't any robots to send for mining and such...or does that work with probe-based ships? If I can send a probe, then I'd rather just take the stupid Kerbals out of the equation entirely and go with robo-miners and whatnot.

[NeoAcario]

Ah...I've always been the "get-it-done" type. Though you make a valid point, since there aren't any robots to send for mining and such...or does that work with probe-based ships? If I can send a probe, then I'd rather just take the stupid Kerbals out of the equation entirely and go with robo-miners and whatnot.

Except robot miners can't place flags...

Besides... my understanding is that we'll need boots on the ground in 0.22 to get more science. Better get into the habit.

Oh.. and does stupidity factor into everything a science lab does or just research?

~Steve

[Tharios]

Except robot miners can't place flags...

Besides... my understanding is that we'll need boots on the ground in 0.22 to get more science. Better get into the habit.

Oh.. and does stupidity factor into everything a science lab does or just research?

~Steve

Eh...not big on planting flags except as location markers...basically so I know where neat things are. Only need one Kerbal for that, and once he's outlived his usefulness...into Kerbol he goes...or whatever other convenient fiery death is available.

As for boots-on-the-ground in .22...if it's for the purpose of science, then stupid Kerbals still won't matter.

And I'm not sure if stupidity affects the other functions of Labs, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

-

Offhand curiosity, I have a single lab with two genius Kerbals, a single computer core, and 2.5m nuclear reactor and electrical generator. It is ground-based. I'm generating .297 science/day. Is that right? Have I missed something? Because I get that we're supposed to go do other stuff while researching, or time-warp it, but at this rate it'll take days of even time-warped research to get even one thing upgraded.

[Fractal_UK]

Oh.. and does stupidity factor into everything a science lab does or just research?

Just research: stupid Kerbals can handle rocket fuel, fusion fuel, antimatter, but they can't handle Science!

Edit:

Offhand curiosity, I have a single lab with two genius Kerbals, a single computer core, and 2.5m nuclear reactor and electrical generator. It is ground-based. I'm generating .297 science/day. Is that right? Have I missed something? Because I get that we're supposed to go do other stuff while researching, or time-warp it, but at this rate it'll take days of even time-warped research to get even one thing upgraded.

No, it's not right. It's 0.1 per day with 2 kerbals, +50% because they're clever so 0.15. Computer core base rate is 0.3 per day. Landed is x2, so you should be at 0.9 per day total. Assuming you're just on Kerbin.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[Ryugi]

You guys are monsters. Poor dumb Kerbals. =(

I use them for the mundane tasks that don't require a bunch of smartness, like running fuel depots, manual labor, test-flights occasionally (you don't have to be smart to be brave and follow orders), long-term studies on Kerbal biology in space, and janitorial staff. Someone has to scrape the green mess off the launchpad and runway too, and that doesn't require a PhD, and neither does directing traffic on the ground with the glowsticks.

[ggibsonjr]

Where is the microwave power transmitter? (screenshot please!)

[Nobody_1707]

Surely you don't throw Bill, Jeb, and Bob into Kerbol? You monsters!

[Tharios]

Just research: stupid Kerbals can handle rocket fuel, fusion fuel, antimatter, but they can't handle Science!

Very well then, you have given me a use for stupid Kerbals. The eugenics program will be cancelled.

No, it's not right. It's 0.1 per day with 2 kerbals, +50% because they're clever so 0.15. Computer core base rate is 0.3 per day. Landed is x2, so you should be at 0.9 per day total.

So what's the ideal set-up for a lab then? I've got the core, lab, generator, and reactor mounted in a stack in that order from the bottom up. Is something missing or placed incorrectly?

You guys are monsters. Poor dumb Kerbals. =(

I use them for the mundane tasks that don't require a bunch of smartness, like running fuel depots, manual labor, test-flights occasionally (you don't have to be smart to be brave and follow orders), long-term studies on Kerbal biology in space, and janitorial staff. Someone has to scrape the green mess off the launchpad and runway too, and that doesn't require a PhD, and neither does directing traffic on the ground with the glowsticks.

Once again...that's what robots are for. But...since robots can't do the processes that Fractal mentioned in his post, I now have an effective use for stupid Kerbals.

[Fractal_UK]

So what's the ideal set-up for a lab then? I've got the core, lab, generator, and reactor mounted in a stack in that order from the bottom up. Is something missing or placed incorrectly?

Sounds like it should work fine. What are the individual science rates that the core and the science lab are reading on their status displays?

[Tharios]

Sounds like it should work fine. What are the individual science rates that the core and the science lab are reading on their status displays?

My resources list displays no change at all. The lab itself displays a rate of .296/day, and the core displays no change at all either.

After more than a month of accelerated Kerbin time, I have 4.33 science total.