[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[Chase]

I agree with this. The system in Interstellar was specifically made to work even while you are not focused on a vessel so that you can continue playing the game while things happen in the background. Go to duna, drive around, fly home. Maybe launch some other crafts. Check back on your lab and you have accumulated some science. Yay

Unfortunate most of us like to do 'one mission at a time', we don't all run Kerbal Alarm Clock, just because something is on its way or at some place doesn't mean I jut want to let it sit. In other games it's fine, because the games are made around that concept. KSP is strictly one mission at a time kind of game. Mind you can do multiple missions at the same time, but most people (as far as I can tell) don't.

Now I am not saying the latter is BAD, it isn't bad, but it's not for everyone, especially not as the main way of getting Science. I think KSP would be better off with both options. Current 0.22 Science for missions and rovers, and long term research for stations, bases, probes, and such. Stuff you tend to leave alone for a long period of time ANYWAY.

[Fractal_UK]

Been working on a brand new science experiment. Since I added the Dual Technique Magnetometer early in development of this mod as something very similar to the stock science parts, it's time for that part to really come of age. You can record information about the magnetospheres of all the various planets/celestial bodies and send that information back to Kerbin for additional science points.

Screenshot from LKO so I don't give the game away completely:

Edited October 18, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[forsaken1111]

Nice! That looks excellent

[Chase]

The science value for it could be a little higher (I could see 30-40). Also I hope that sandbox automatically unlocks all the advanced parts, and possibly provides some antimatter, etc. Since we now have a Career mode, no reason not to give sandbox people all the toys out the door (as Tharios mentioned).

That said, I am glad to see you integrating with career mode. Also you should consider looking into TreeLoader once they get the Tree Builder released for use. So you can create your own tech tree.

One small request, please don't make the advanced parts ludicrously expensive Science wise. I can see 2000-6000 easily, but not something like 20,000 or something that would be just annoying to get.

[Tharios]

The science value for it could be a little higher (I could see 30-40). Also I hope that sandbox automatically unlocks all the advanced parts, and possibly provides some antimatter, etc. Since we now have a Career mode, no reason not to give sandbox people all the toys out the door (as Tharios mentioned).

That said, I am glad to see you integrating with career mode. Also you should consider looking into TreeLoader once they get the Tree Builder released for use.

One small request, please don't make the advanced parts ludicrously expensive Science wise. I can see 2000-6000 easily, but not something like 20,000 or something that would be just annoying to get.

I imagine the amount of science it produces is relative to its placement up the tech tree. Without knowing which node it's found in, there's no way to make a determination about how much science it should give for its use.

I don't think the treeloader yet allows for the addition of new nodes, but it should soon. That will definitely be a bonus. That was always a problem with modding tech trees in Galactic Civilizations II. You could turn any tech into any other tech, functionally, but you couldn't change their IDs, nor could you make new ones because the game wouldn't recognize them. It sucked...game had so much potential...

Edit: Also, I think 2k to 6k for the most advanced parts isn't unreasonable, considering the Science value of some missions, but that said, having seen what some people can do with the most basic parts from the beginning, something needs to be done to balance out that abuse. The initial half-a-dozen parts in the stock game absolutely should not even get a stable orbit, let alone to Minmus...or apparently even Duna in some cases. That's just not kosher. But since their effectiveness is hard to limit without ruining the parts, it's the science that will have to be adjusted somehow, I think.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Tharios
Missed Point.

[Seyvern]

Reasonable in the cases of some of the parts...and reasonable enough overall to justify not bothering to upgrade anything at that point. But then the problem becomes that there aren't enough nodes currently to cover all the stock and all the KSP:I tech proper relative placement in the tree.

Agreed right now. I'm assuming thats something squad will fix reasonably soon. Or someone will figure out how to mod it.

[BoJaN]

After trying your mod for the first time the day before 0.22 was released, the science system in 0.22 was very disappointing. Your system of having to spend time and energy to do very little research a much more interesting and rewarding. The 0.22 science system just makes KSP feel a lot like a children's game with no real challenge...

[Chase]

Having seen what some people can do with the most basic parts from the beginning, something needs to be done to balance out that abuse. The initial half-a-dozen parts in the stock game absolutely should not even get a stable orbit, let alone to Minmus...or apparently even Duna in some cases. That's just not kosher. But since their effectiveness is hard to limit without ruining the parts, it's the science that will have to be adjusted somehow, I think.

Your complaining that people are too good at the game? They don't do it because its easy, they do it because its a challenge, you just were saying how the game should be more challenging.

That said, it's about impossible to not allow people to do so, and why would you? Sure you could give them only rovers and planes at first, but this is a game about making rockets. However looking at the tech tree, it looks like budget will be implemented soon, which will limit such insane trips early on (but I am sure someone will still manage it).

[Exposure]

Not too bothered over the stock science system compared to Interstellar if only because stock is currently very incomplete and trying to be balanced for people new towards the game (though a difficulty level feature for those more experienced with the game wouldn't be unappreciated), and KSP Interstellar's science system is more focused on giving players who've been playing the game for a while access to parts that can do...well, look at the name.*

Even if it's technically impossible to actually go interstellar right now. :V

[Tharios]

Your complaining that people are too good at the game? They don't do it because its easy, they do it because its a challenge, you just were saying how the game should be more challenging.

That said, it's about impossible to not allow people to do so, and why would you? Sure you could give them only rovers and planes at first, but this is a game about making rockets. However looking at the tech tree, it looks like budget will be implemented soon, which will limit such insane trips early on (but I am sure someone will still manage it).

I'm not implying anyone should be penalized, but frankly, even I managed to get to the Mun in my first go, and I'm not really all that good at the game (I think). A number of corporate management types are quite apt at gaming the system to become ludicrously rich. Does that mean we pat them on the back and say "good on you"? No, it means we fix it so they can't do that anymore. Yes yes..."it's just a game." That's no excuse to leave something silly, just because "it's not that important". Doing things the right way is always important. But, maybe that's just me.

It's not because they're good players (though many probably are), it's because the modeling of physics in the game only loosely mimics reality. So it's possible to do things that really don't make sense...like spinning wing-planes that can make orbit with a little RCS thrown in. Being able to exploit a flaw in a game to irrationally extreme benefit isn't to be lauded as anything but an opportunity to fix said flaw. It's not about fairness, it's about quality.

Yeah...some of that's just the quirky flavor of KSP and it should probably remain in a limited way. But there's got to be a line where enough's enough. Either make it even harder to hit Duna with starting stock parts, or make it impossible because it's absurd. I'd say offer more realistic modeling of physics, but the game is too far for that, and I don't think their chosen engine would support it anyway. We'll see if and when they implement a funding system, and what effect it has.

Though, all that said, odds are the only reason anyone made it is because of things like MechJeb, which I suppose doesn't really count, anyway.

[Chase]

With unlimited funds, resources and man power, even with limited technology you can do some rather crazy things. Such as the results we see here. If we had unlimited resources and man power, forget the moon, we could have gone to the outer planets (after of course we went to the moon, because.. its right there and all).

[Tharios]

With unlimited funds, resources and man power, even with limited technology you can do some rather crazy things. Such as the results we see here. If we had unlimited resources and man power, forget the moon, we could have gone to the outer planets (after of course we went to the moon, because.. its right there and all).

No, actually one can't. With effectively unlimited resources and manpower, we could've gone farther than the moon in the same time it took us to get to the moon, sure. Probably to Mars, maybe even Jupiter, though I doubt it...and the process probably wouldn't have occurred any more quickly. Since money and manpower only speed the process of development, not the actual creative invention. Money doesn't make ideas, and since only a tiny smidgeon of people are really visionary, adding more people only makes the process of refinement go faster. It doesn't actually make the ideas come any quicker. Diminishing returns, remember? Too many cooks spoil the pot. Certainly, more is better, to a point...but only to a point.

And yes, it is somewhat that way in the game, but it's much too extreme, even for KSP. It's not just amusingly silly, it's ridiculously nuts. And while it won't ever be fixed, it should be. That's all. I'm not implying it should be a perfect simulation, but that strikes me as a rather glaring flaw. An economic Kraken, if you will.

On another note...we should've colonized the entire system by now...but the Dark Ages cost us about a thousand years of development. Closer to two thousand, when you consider that it didn't just forestall the growth of knowledge for several centuries, but actually sent it backward several centuries, first.

[Chase]

Yes, but your still thinking Limited. Even when we say something in our world is unlimited, it really is just limited, just really really large beyond anything we could really hope to ever use.

But in this case I mean unlimited as in infinite. With an infinite number of groups, an infinite number will come up with a good idea and implementation quickly, and an infinite number will not.

[Fractal_UK]

So how about this, Fractal. Since Career mode is separate now, how about an aspect of the mod that turns off all research and makes all parts fully upgraded from the beginning, for Sandbox mode? Since the two are separate, those who want the challenge go Career, and those who just want to build and fly spiffy ships right off the bat have Sandbox.

I don't know how well that will work from a technical standpoint, but it seems like a good option for a future update at some point.

Turning off research for Sandbox and having everything start auto-upgraded is pretty much the only option. Sandbox mode doesn't include the scenario data about your current science or science experiments, etc so by working on integrating the mod with the stock tech tree and stock science tree, this is pretty much the only option I'm left with (other than weird and messy solutions).

That said, sandbox at least becomes what it says on the tin, a place where you can test out the very best of the technology that exists in the mod, play with it and see how it works for your career mode playthroughs.

[theonegalen]

As soon as this is Tech Tree / Stock Science updated, I am going to download it.

[Fractal_UK]

As soon as this is Tech Tree / Stock Science updated, I am going to download it.

Integration is more or less done now after a spell of frantic API exploration, coding, caffeine and limited sleep.

I've also added a (very) small level of automatic heat dissipation that all ships can benefit from, which scales with their mass. This won't prevent any parts that need heat radiators from needing them for continuous operation but it does mean that small, lower power output, ships can cool themselves by simply turning the electronics off.

I've made a ridiculous number of changes for this update so I'm going to spend a bit of time checking everything over but hopefully there aren't many bugs and 0.7 will be able to arrive soon.

[RabidMonkey]

Love this mod! I'm kinda RPing the research required for it right now by trying to finish the tech tree before it's released - and I'm no Manley. I had to send rescue missions out for my initial flights to the Mun and Minmus, and now I need to rescue the guys sent to rescue Jeb from the Mun. At least he has two other Kerbals to talk to now.

[db48x]

If only that information were included in the Wiki, which writes so boldly, "the mod will freely convert between the standard ElectricCharge and MegaJoules at no extra charge"

Thanks for the reply!

It sounds like I may have misunderstood it when I added that to the wiki; I haven't actually launched any solar sats myself.

Fractal_UK, would you clarify how this currently works, and how it's supposed to work? Would it be correct to say that if you are generating and transmitting a large amount of power, the receiver will receive it as ElectricCharge but can spend it as MegaJoules?

[Fractal_UK]

Fractal_UK, would you clarify how this currently works, and how it's supposed to work? Would it be correct to say that if you are generating and transmitting a large amount of power, the receiver will receive it as ElectricCharge but can spend it as MegaJoules?

Every part in the mod generates both ElectricCharge and Megajoules, both will be produced according to demand. So, microwave receivers will give you both, the generators will give you both, etc. The only things that will not give you both are stock parts or parts from other mods, things like solar panels, RTGs, etc.

[forsaken1111]

Every part in the mod generates both ElectricCharge and Megajoules, both will be produced according to demand. So, microwave receivers will give you both, the generators will give you both, etc. The only things that will not give you both are stock parts or parts from other mods, things like solar panels, RTGs, etc.

But you will only get a electriccharge to MJ conversion if you are transmitting it via a microwave transmitter. There is no way to do it on a single craft, correct?

I.E. I could not include a massive solar array on my craft to power its plasma thrusters even if I would be getting 1000+ electriccharge per second?

[Fractal_UK]

But you will only get a electriccharge to MJ conversion if you are transmitting it via a microwave transmitter. There is no way to do it on a single craft, correct?

I.E. I could not include a massive solar array on my craft to power its plasma thrusters even if I would be getting 1000+ electriccharge per second?

Just think of it as a Megajoule -> Electric Charge conversion. Everything that produces Megajoules will give you ElectricCharge but something that produces ElectricCharge will only produce ElectricCharge.

[forsaken1111]

So is there any reason you're not allowing EC -> MJ conversion? Will it create a weird resource loop with your resource handler?

Allowing it would enable compatibility with other mods that simply produce EC.

[Andersenman]

I could not include a massive solar array on my craft to power its plasma thrusters even if I would be getting 1000+ electriccharge per second?

To be fair, even when I did try that, I found that I had to employ academic amounts of Gigantors to reach the mistakenly inferred MJ-production scale.

In hindsight, this impracticality does have a balancing effect of sorts: Developing and improving an entire industry purely on Science gathered in space should require huge efforts. Compare dimensions of the ISS with Earth-based and Earth-powered research. If all that research capacity we have on Earth had to be performed in space only (essentially, Interstellar's labs somewhere in Kerbalspace), those labs had bloody damn well better have some massive Energy-gathering devices!

On the other hand,

Allowing it would enable compatibility with other mods that simply produce EC.

Fair enough.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Andersenman

[forsaken1111]

To be fair, even when I did try that, I found that I had to employ academic amounts of Gigantors to reach the mistakenly inferred MJ-production scale.

True the stock solar panels wouldn't be terribly useful for reaching a 1000+EC/s or 1+MJ/s production rate for energy but there are other mods that introduce massive solar panels or other methods of energy generation, like burning kethane in a combustion generator. An array of such combustion generators could get up to the MJ area I'm sure, as could any other method when used in excess.

But really I'm not arguing for the conversion, I was asking why it hasn't been done. If it introduces funny resource loops or issues then its understandable.

Hm... maybe I'll do some testing on my own when I finish up my stock career mode run (which is a blast so far!) and after the next version of this mod comes out.

[Tharios]

Yes, but your still thinking Limited. Even when we say something in our world is unlimited, it really is just limited, just really really large beyond anything we could really hope to ever use.

But in this case I mean unlimited as in infinite. With an infinite number of groups, an infinite number will come up with a good idea and implementation quickly, and an infinite number will not.

I'm going to assume you meant an infinite number can do it, and a finite number cannot.

Even a truly infinite quantity though is irrelevant. Sure, they'll do it really quickly, but there's a maximum point where it doesn't matter how much more you put into it, it can't get done any faster. Just as even if you did have truly infinite energy available, you couldn't ever exceed the speed of light directly.

I'll even leave out the whole fact that it only works at all if human intellects were truly diverse and capable of infinite conception.

That said...throwing everything we have at a problem is still even my preferred way of getting things done. It's what effectively eradicated small pox, put men on the moon, brought forth the nuclear age, etc. When we put our collective will as a civilization to a problem, it doesn't stand a chance, because the human brain is currently the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. And it's awesome.