Does anybody actually use the "Tools and Applications" forum?

[CoriW]

Hello, I'm the creator of the "Kerbal Space Program Mission Generator" website, and I've noticed something that is concerning me.

When I originally posted the forum thread for my mission generator, I had posted it in the "General Discussion" forum, and while it was there the website got 1,467 page views within the first day. However the next day a moderator moved the thread to the "Tools and Applications" forum because it was more relevant to the thread.

Now since the thread was moved, it hasn't gotten any single posts in it from anyone except myself, and the website quickly dropped down to 0 page views a day. Normally I would not be concerned about this sort of thing but I have put about 60 hours into working on my website and now it's not getting any views at all which is making me feel that I'm doing it for nothing.

Don't get me wrong I really enjoy working on it, but the main reason I created it was for others to use, and since apparently nobody seems to ever look in the "Tools and Applications" forum, it's not being used at all.

EDIT: This is interesting, before I posted this my website statistics said August 7th, 8th, and 9th all had 0 views, and after I posted this it now says 138, 165, and 123 page views respectively. Well, that's confusing.

Edited August 10, 2013 by CoriW

[Johnno]

First off, I approve wholeheartedly of your work, as I already noted in your original thread. I had noticed your changes while checking the site (to get more ideas for missions for myself), rather than your thread, to be honest I had not visited your thread all that many times after my first view.

Sadly, I think the majority of forumgoers have very specific tastes. General, How To, Challenges, are the ones I personally visit the most. Likely most people have a similar selection (that is, 2-4 'favourite' subforums).

Even so, I'm glad I caught your thread, I got your site bookmarked so you don't have to worry about me. But I agree, sad that you're not getting the amount of views that your thread/work/site does deserve.

[-RanZ-]

The problem is there are too many sub forums and 90% of them no one reads... most of the threads mods move go to a sub form to die

[lammatt]

the problem of the site not getting consistent long term views is that

why would people want to ramdom what they are going to do in the game while they can play a more interesting challenge in the challenge forum?

[CoriW]

Something I find kind of funny though, is that originally when my thread got moved to "Tools and Applications" my initial thoughts was that it would get even more views, since that's a sub-forum of the "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase" thread which actually gets about twice as many views as the "General Discussion" forum. However it seems that sub-forums of sub-forums aren't very popular.

Hmm, thinking about it I wonder if I could ask a mod if I could have my thread moved to "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase", I mean it isn't quite as relevant as the "Tools and Applications" sub-forum, but it still should fall under "Project Showcase" right? I just really feel like I want lots of people to see and use the website, not because it would benefit me, but because I built the website for the community and I would be depressed if the project just got ignored because people didn't even know about it.

That's one of the reasons I've put it in my signature as well, is so that no matter what sub-forum it's in people will still be able to see and use it.

(On a side note: I've been working really hard on the website over the past few days and version 1.3 should be released in a day or 2, the reason I'm saying it here is because I don't want to post another "double post" in the main thread without it being important like a changelog.)

EDIT:

the problem of the site not getting consistent long term views is that

why would people want to ramdom what they are going to do in the game while they can play a more interesting challenge in the challenge forum?

Well, it was talked about in a couple threads already that some sort of random mission generator would probably used quite frequently by those who can't think of things to do in KSP, the problem with the "Challenges" forum is that it's just that -- Challenging. While the mission generator can indeed produce some very challenging missions, it can also be used to generate more average missions that aren't so challenging or difficult to accomplish, it can be a very useful tool for everybody.

Edited August 10, 2013 by CoriW

[stupid_chris]

Alright, IIRC I'm the one who moved your thread.

I do agree that your thread is most likely getting much less views from where it is, but honestly, this is where it belongs. We move things to where they belong for the sake of having ordered forums. If everything is all over the place just to get more views, it's going to be a hell to actually find what you are looking for.

Addon release and project showcase forum is for actual in game things. Whatever interacts directly with the game goes there. The tools and application forums is for whatever is related to the game but is contained off of it. It's a sub forum of the addon release and project showcase forum, so yes, your own project is there. Whatever is website, .exe files and other things all go there.

To be honest, even this thread shouldn't be in the general discussion forums, it should be in the forum forum.

[CoriW]

Alright, IIRC I'm the one who moved your thread.

I do agree that your thread is most likely getting much less views from where it is, but honestly, this is where it belongs. We move things to where they belong for the sake of having ordered forums. If everything is all over the place just to get more views, it's going to be a hell to actually find what you are looking for.

Addon release and project showcase forum is for actual in game things. Whatever interacts directly with the game goes there. The tools and application forums is for whatever is related to the game but is contained off of it. It's a sub forum of the addon release and project showcase forum, so yes, your own project is there. Whatever is website, .exe files and other things all go there.

To be honest, even this thread shouldn't be in the general discussion forums, it should be in the forum forum.

I completely understand the reasoning for the way the forum is set up, and won't attempt to argue it or anything similar. I don't think I realized that the "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase" forum was intended for in-game tools only, thanks for pointing that out to me.

Although I would go as far to ask if there would be any possibility (I know it's unlikely) that the "Tools and Applications" sub-forum could be moved to the "Add-ons" main forum, instead of being a sub-forum of "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase"? It seems to me that it would make more sense to have in-game and out-of-game projects be sub-forums of the same forum rather than one being a sub-forum of the other, since they are really fairly unrelated from each other. The only similarity is that they're both programs that have been made for KSP, in other words "Add-ons".

As for where this thread is located, I didn't even know there was a forum forum...? Where is that located?

[stupid_chris]

I completely understand the reasoning for the way the forum is set up, and won't attempt to argue it or anything similar. I don't think I realized that the "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase" forum was intended for in-game tools only, thanks for pointing that out to me.

Although I would go as far to ask if there would be any possibility (I know it's unlikely) that the "Tools and Applications" sub-forum could be moved to the "Add-ons" main forum, instead of being a sub-forum of "Add-on Releases and Project Showcase"? It seems to me that it would make more sense to have in-game and out-of-game projects be sub-forums of the same forum rather than one being a sub-forum of the other, since they are really fairly unrelated from each other. The only similarity is that they're both programs that have been made for KSP, in other words "Add-ons".

As for where this thread is located, I didn't even know there was a forum forum...? Where is that located?

For that part, I can try talking to the people in charge of it, but I wouldn't count on it. It was first made to sort things out better I believe, but I'll bring it up.

And for the forum forum, it's hidden down in the "KSP Network" group, kinda sneaky this one.

[katateochi]

I didn't even know there was a Tools and Applications sub forum, I knew of the Forum Forum, but I never remember to check it, if this was in Forum Forum there is no chance I'd ever see it.

I remember back when most things used to go in General Discussion (before mission reports or live from mission control (youtubes) etc) and there used to be much more lively and involved discussions. When those sections first got created I was really disappointed at the change in the number of views things relegated to those sections got. It almost makes posting about things there pointless.

For example I posted about my Constellation mission in live from mission control and it got 8 replies and the vid got a few more hits. It was then featured on KSP weekly (thanks xPDxTV) and the vid got more hits than any other vid I've made, but the thread in mission control remained inactive. A little later someone else made a post about it in General Discussion and that thread is now 9 pages long (with 14 times more views). That thread in GeneralD also produced a noticeable spike (+1000 hits) in the vid's view count graph (noticeable even after the mountain of a spike the KSP weekly feature produced). I'd also posted the craft in the spacecraft exchange and that has got a high view count as its linked from the vid, but mission control is a dead section!

A lot of new users still post their "I made it to Mun" threads in General Discussion, which I think is great, they are actually seen and they get some encouragement from the community, if they post them in mission reports then they don't get seen and they don't get the encouragement that makes them feel like coming back with more (and in the early days of me playing KSP it was partly the enthusiasm of the community that really made KSP something special).

I can understand the goal of having a more organised forum, but also I think that the first goal should be to have more active discussions and it should be structured to put content in the face of the majority of users. I think the mods are a bit hasty to move things out of general discussion before people have had a chance to see them (especially when taking different time zones into account).

At work we have a similar discussion forum; there is a general discussion analog called the hub, everything goes there to start with and things stay there for a minimum of 3-4 days. Once something has been seen by most people and has had a good initial discussion it is then filed into a more relevant sub topic. Topics in the hub that don't generate interest fall off the first page but they still remain in the hub for a few days, once they fall to about the 3rd/4th page (or are 3-4 days old) they are filed/archived. There is also a most-recent-first log of what topics have been moved where that is accessible from the hub.

The aim of this system is fast access to new information by as many people as possible without them needing to spend much time on it. People only ever need to check the first two pages of the hub to quickly see everything new that's going on, they don't have to trawl the many sub sections and very few people miss out on seeing new topics.

I don't think the sub-sections of the forum are a bad idea but it is just a fact that very few people check them. It's become quite discouraging to post in those sub-sections. Most people check GD frequently so I think that is where new topics should start out and I think they should stay there long enough that most people get a chance to see them.

I would like to ask the mods to be less efficient in filling topics please! File things that have fallen to the 2nd or 3rd page and give us more chance to see things and take into account that many of us don't have the time to check all the sub sections. It would also be really helpful to have a sticky thread in GD where the mods record (most recent first) which topics have been moved and to where.

Please don't take this as a criticism of the mods (who I think do a great and difficult job) and this isn't meant to sound like I'm telling you what to do, it's just a suggestion to ponder.

[CoriW]

(.......)

Well, that pretty much sums it up, I agree.

[AmpsterMan]

Okay, I'll post in your thread so I can sub myself to it

[SolarLiner]

I never had such "fav" forums or sub ones. I always use the "New posts" feature of all the forums I go. But I've seen lots of new thread quickly disappear because of non response/non-activity. And there was great thread, too often I think ...

I don't know how many uses forums like me, but I think this is a good way to find interesting discussions over the huge place that is the KSP community forum.

[Senshi]

The subforums are used very regularly. If people are not able to find the mods and contents posted there, they probably don't belong there anyway. Sorry, but three levels of hierarchy is not that difficult to grasp, really.

The threads in these subforums (especially the Addon ones) get plenty of activity as-is, and piling those in General Discussion as well would make it even more of a chaos than the forums already are. I personally frequent the addon forums 95% of my time here, and I just barely manage to keep up with the new developements and discussions there. Having to scour through a "general" forum where no thread is of interest to me would be an incredible step down in comfort.

So: please don't reduce the number of forums in the Addons section. I can't speak about the others, as I rarely look at them.

[boxman]

I have never used that forum and mostly just browse general.

[RocketPilot573]

Tools and Applications forum? Never heard of it, nor can I find it no mater how hard I try. I'm afraid any threads in there might as well be lost forever...

[CoriW]

I never had such "fav" forums or sub ones. I always use the "New posts" feature of all the forums I go. But I've seen lots of new thread quickly disappear because of non response/non-activity. And there was great thread, too often I think ...

I don't know how many uses forums like me, but I think this is a good way to find interesting discussions over the huge place that is the KSP community forum.

That's a pretty good method I think, the only issue with that is it may get a bit disorganized at times with all the different threads, that's the reason why there are sub-forums.

The subforums are used very regularly. If people are not able to find the mods and contents posted there, they probably don't belong there anyway. Sorry, but three levels of hierarchy is not that difficult to grasp, really.

The threads in these subforums (especially the Addon ones) get plenty of activity as-is, and piling those in General Discussion as well would make it even more of a chaos than the forums already are. I personally frequent the addon forums 95% of my time here, and I just barely manage to keep up with the new developements and discussions there. Having to scour through a "general" forum where no thread is of interest to me would be an incredible step down in comfort.

So: please don't reduce the number of forums in the Addons section. I can't speak about the others, as I rarely look at them.

Your right, a lot of sub-forums do get used very regularly, however there are a couple that I've noticed that don't get nearly as much attention as others, I also don't think piling everything up in "General Discussion" is a good idea either, it would pretty much make for one giant mess of a forum if everything was in the same place. Although I do like the idea brought up by "katateochi" to have things in one place for a couple days, then move it to an appropriate sub-forum, it does still have a couple flaws in how disorganized things could get with the number of threads that are actually created and posted on in a day.

As for the number of sub-forums in the "Add-ons" forum, I never suggested that any sub-forums be merged or removed. All I suggested is that one of the sub-forums be moved so that it is no longer the sub-forum of an unrelated sub-forum. The reason I suggested that is because right now a lot of people don't even know there is a forum for Out-of-Game Add-ons because it's hidden away where nobody would expect it to be located, inside the In-Game Add-ons sub-forum, when really Out-of-Game and In-Game Add-ons really aren't related to each other in any way except for being "Add-ons", which is exactly why they should both be located under the main "Add-ons" forum.

Tools and Applications forum? Never heard of it, nor can I find it no mater how hard I try. I'm afraid any threads in there might as well be lost forever...

Well, if you go down the the "Add-ons" main forum, then into the "Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase" sub-forum, the very first thing listed is a section called "Sub-Forums", and under that you'll see "Tools and Applications"

[rkman]

Tools and Applications forum? Never heard of it, nor can I find it no mater how hard I try.

It's actually right there when you go to the forum root:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum.php

Add-ons

...

Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase

Sub-Forums: Tools and Applications

But somehow it's easy to overlook.

Which is a bit of a shame because it contains jewels such as the Launch Window Planner and Partgen (to easily make custom fuel tanks and such).

Edited August 11, 2013 by rkman

[PrivateFlip]

This is certainly an interesting argument. Although anybody can agree to the idea a thread should in principle go in the most fitting subsection and no one is actually disagreeing with a moderator for enforcing this, there can be a legitimate discussion about what effects a certain subdivision has and whether such a subdivision is desirable.

Certain overly specific subdivision might be having the undesired effect of placing some threads, which many might enjoy, in a very specific sub forum which because of its low action doesn't get much views.

CoriW's case is an excellent example. Reasonable people could disagree on whether giving tools and applications their separate forums is beneficial.

For one I do know it exists but I never go there.

The subdivision is also in some way arbitrary. Not in the sense that there isn't a fundamental difference between ingame and outgame add-ons, but in the sense that we could imagine other subdivisions like for example between part, plugins and part-plugin combination mods which we don't make.

I think everybody can appreciate why you might want the questions and discussions of modders seperate of the general game discussion, both for the sake of the developers as the rest of the community. The same might be said for those wanting to post lengthy fan fiction, you're either in to that or you don't. But for this subdivision the reason is not so apparent other than that we can make the distinction. For example like threads are currently marked with [Part] and [Plugin] in the showcase section there could be another [Tool] marker just as well.

Looking at the relevant sizes (Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase Threads: 651 Posts: 68,485 Tools and Applications Threads: 57 Posts: 2,164) the order this subdivision brings is questionable. (I'll bet this subdivision was made before it was a problem.)

Some diversion of topics on a subforum isn't necessarily a bad thing. Take this thread In memorian, Meldorf Kerman, RIP seems like an excellent short funny diversion for the general discussion where its currently placed but formerly its a work of fiction so it will probably be moved to KSP Fan Works by a moderator. Too bad, because I and lots of others never go to fan works just to find out a short and passable little comment like this among the often longer, more serious stuff which we're at least right now not interested in.

Like katateochi already said, besides order there is a relevance to having activity and, maybe more base, to having views when you post something.

I like the suggestion of using the new posts functionality as a preferred way to use the forums. But isn't proposing such a solution to the perceived problem not an indicator the forums may be a little overly ordered.

So to add my 2 cents, I do feel there is a relevant discussion here. (There probably won't be as this thread has/will be moved to the 'forum forum' subforum which most of the people IN THIS THREAD didn't even knew existed. )

Edited August 11, 2013 by PrivateFlip

[AlternNocturn]

I think the forum admins should rename it to something more inviting, like "External Add-ons". Other than that I have no idea how one could prevent Tool and Applications from being a death trap for awesome KSP-related applications.

[sal_vager]

It does need more exposure, there's some great stuff in there, and we discussed having an [App] tag but stuff would still be lost on the addon releases page.

Not sure how to drive more traffic there to be honest, people have to want external apps.

[CoriW]

It does need more exposure, there's some great stuff in there, and we discussed having an [App] tag but stuff would still be lost on the addon releases page.

Not sure how to drive more traffic there to be honest, people have to want external apps.

I've pitched this twice now, but honestly I think that the solution to this could be as simple as moving the Tools and Applications forum to the "Add-ons" root forum.

The reasoning behind the idea is that fairly often people tend to easily overlook sub-forums of sub-forums, and currently that's exactly what the Tools and Applications forum is, for example if somebody mentions "The Science Labs", "Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase", or "KSP Fan Works" forums people immediately know which forum has been mentioned and where it is located. The reason for this is simple, because even if the person has never actually browsed or used those forums they have seen them multiple times every time they go to the root forum, so subconsciously their brain takes a note that those forums exist. However in the case of the "Tools and Applications" forum, if mentioned a lot of people quickly get confused and ask where that forum is simply because they never even knew that it existed.

So with that being said, the solution I'm proposing may seem like something that wouldn't really effect much, but in reality I think it really would, simply because while on the root forum people would see the Tools and Applications forum and even if they weren't browsing it, they would indeed know it existed. The side effect to more people knowing something exists is usually more people interacting with said thing that exists.

Edited August 11, 2013 by CoriW

[Epthelyn]

You're right about people only going to the sections they want to. I tend to browse the forums when I've got nothing else to do, not as a "I'm going to spend time replying to posts" activity (mostly, anyway). I head straight for the How-to section to see if there's anything I can help with, or the General Discussion section because most of the threads in there are fairly interesting and in some cases you get re-directed to the other forums from it via links in posts or even peoples' signatures. As for the other sections, well, I didn't even know there was a "Tools and Applications" sub-sub-forum until I did a Google search for "KSP Mission Generator" and found one then backtracked through the forum structure. I imagine the same thing happens with the Addons and Project Showcase section; people will usually know what mod they want and use a search engine to find it, aiming directly to the page and not having to scroll down. In doing so, unless they randomly scroll down the forum now and then, half the sections are never really seen.

In other words, if I'm browsing through the forum to fill in time, I go to the parts where I know I'll find something to look at. I don't need tools because I'm not necessarily playing the game and enough mission reports end up 'wrongly' placed in General Discussion to provide more than ample stories to read through.

Unless a section is of interest at least once, there's no retention value. Even if there is something interesting, a situation arises (especially in the case of tools, mission reports or mods) where bookmarking pages is used instead of hopping through the forum and searching through the list of threads - Obviously this makes sense, it's a hell of a lot quicker.

[Tw1]

Perhaps a complete re-working of the main forum page could help.

Organised as it is, General gets the most views because it's easy to find.

If the vertical list was replaced by larger horizontal buttons, with general in the middle, people might see the other forums and visit more often.

[PrivateFlip]

It does need more exposure, there's some great stuff in there, and we discussed having an [App] tag but stuff would still be lost on the addon releases page.

Do you by 'lost' mean getting lost between the great amount of other threads on the addon release page? That's certainly a mayor disasdvantage. If your mod isn't extremely popular you'll be pushed of the first few pages in no time, but maybe this would be a price to pay in order to have some more traffic to these threads.

Not sure how to drive more traffic there to be honest, people have to want external apps.

That's obviously true; maybe be most people simply don't have an interest in external apps but if they did, they also need to know the subforum exists, which currently a significant number of people apparently don't. In addition it would also help the threads would also be in a place which people frequent (at least those who might be interested in the thread). If activity in a certain section is low some people just stop going there altogether instead of checking in there on a regular basis like we might think they should.