Should/will Ion engines be buffed?

[LittleItaly]

I just always found it odd how the devs (so far) have only put in two types of Xenon Gas containers (and only on the smallest size) as well as only one kind of engine.

Have the devs mentioned anything about further exploring and expanding Xenon gas an Ion engines to be broader in spectrum like liquid fuel engines? Are there any .21 compatible mods that serve this purpose?

Thank you!

P.S. I apologize if this is posted in the wrong place

[astropapi1]

They should be nerfed if anything.

Really, they're like mainsails compared to the real thing.

[Scotius]

In KSP Ion engines are already overpowered compared to their RL counterparts. And yet they still are most useful for small, lightweight crafts - like probes. For anything bigger you are better off with LV-N. Still, i would be happy to see engine like VASIMR or MagnetoPlasmaDynamic Thruster added to the game at one point. Those actually pack a decent thrust/Isp combo.

[Sapphire]

I think they should be. I seem to recall reading somewhere that when comparing the Ion's TtW to the NERVA's TtW, and the Ion's ISP and NERVA's ISP, the NERVA has a better ratio. So the NERVA, compared to the Ion, even with the Ion's ISP, the NERVA is a far better engine.

[CoriW]

In KSP Ion engines are already overpowered compared to their RL counterparts. And yet they still are most useful for small, lightweight crafts - like probes. For anything bigger you are better off with LV-N. Still, i would be happy to see engine like VASIMR or MagnetoPlasmaDynamic Thruster added to the game at one point. Those actually pack a decent thrust/Isp combo.

I agree with you about the plasma engines, I would love to see those added to the game in the future!

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think they should be. I seem to recall reading somewhere that when comparing the Ion's TtW to the NERVA's TtW, and the Ion's ISP and NERVA's ISP, the NERVA has a better ratio. So the NERVA, compared to the Ion, even with the Ion's ISP, the NERVA is a far better engine.

Comparing.... TWR to ISP?? Pfffffffft.. XD

Okay yeah, the Ion Engine's TWR sucks. It's quite a ways below 1, whereas the NERVA can lift its own mass... almost three times over, IIRC.

The engine doesn't fly on its own though, and the LV-N needs fuel. It needs at least its own mass in fuel to really get anywhere when already in orbit, and that's with nothing else weighing it down. It also kinda needs to carry all of its fuel with itself.

The Ion Engine also needs fuel. It also needs that pesky electricity, in rather large amounts.

Here's the thing: Electricity comes from the Sun, via solar panels. In unlimited quantities.

As such, the Ion Engine only needs to carry the Xenon, which is 1/120th of the thing that propels it. Yeah, there's the solar panels, but the amount of mass you save in Xenon is massive.

Bottom line: A NERVA probe will need 20 tons of mass to have the same delta-V as an Ion probe of 2 tons. Sure, it'll get there faster, and likely with less hassle, but I still think it's quite indicative.

[magnemoe]

They should be nerfed if anything.

Really, they're like mainsails compared to the real thing.

However in real world you don't mind doing week long burns with the ion engines.

That would be pretty boring in KSP. Another option would be higher physical warp for small probes.

As it is it work well enough for an small probe like an kethane mapper or iso mapsat.

[Cesrate]

The real problem is not the little thrust of ion rocket(although greatly buffed than those in real life), but the low rate of physics warp(4X is obviously too low).

[Venomolf]

I think we should have magnetoplasmadynamic engines.

[Sean Mirrsen]

The actual problem is the players' lack of patience.

Until ion-powered long burns can be abstracted on the level of on-rails timewarp, this will not change. If you want a hideously efficient probe engine, you're going to have to wait while it does its thing.

edit: MPD thrusters and VASIMR thrusters are great and all, but they're effectively a rehash of Ion Engines, and likely not a great big priority for Squad at the moment. Plus they're even bigger power hogs, to the point where the only plausible powersource for an IRL VASIMR is a prototype compact nuclear reactor.

[Venomolf]

There will be flaws with such a power hungry Ion-Type engine. You would probably need a whole space station worth of power just to power it, but would be worth it for the huge ISP.

[NERVAfan]

to the point where the only plausible powersource for an IRL VASIMR is a prototype compact nuclear reactor.

Even with the super-light ultra-thin-film solar panels that exist these days? Supposedly (Wikipedia) IKAROS has 25-micrometer-thick solar panels. Could a nuclear reactor really get better specific power (watts per kilogram) than something like that?

[Venomolf]

MPD's are a very probable type of propulsion for the future, but its expensive to manufacture solar panels like that, you know.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Even with the super-light ultra-thin-film solar panels that exist these days? Supposedly (Wikipedia) IKAROS has 25-micrometer-thick solar panels. Could a nuclear reactor really get better specific power (watts per kilogram) than something like that?

Considering that an MPD needs something on the order of hundreds of kilowatts, you're looking at a solar array massing in at a hundred tons - that is still dependent on full exposure to the Sun, and is probably extremely fragile. A nuclear reactor is compact, and not dependent on positioning, not to mention rather sturdy by design - and it quite certainly can match the required power production.

[Brofessional]

They ions are fine as they are, but they do need to add the large scale ion engine from KSPX, simply to reduce part counts.

[SunJumper]

For added ion engine related parts, I'd like to see some 1m and 2m tanks. Increases stability and reduces lag.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Ion engines are slow enough on probes. 2m xenon tanks is just overkill.

(also, what stability? They're barely exerting enough force to push off off Gilly!)

[SunJumper]

Ion engines are slow enough on probes. 2m xenon tanks is just overkill.

(also, what stability? They're barely exerting enough force to push off off Gilly!)

Launch stability. 10 little xenon tanks are less stable than one big and wide tank.

[Comrade Jenkens]

Though technically ion engines are fine balance wise, I simply don't have the patience to watch the PC for 3 days while it does a burn. As such I just put them on satellite to adjust their altitude

[hazarada]

The main problem i see with them is that they don't really have a purpose. Anywhere you can get to with ion's, you can get with any other engine, faster. Also since they are so tiny, you cant power anything larger than a toothpick with them for lag reasons.

Buff them? Nah, the game just needs to implement more suitable situations for them, also bigger versions.

[AmpsterMan]

I too would like to see some larger Ion engines. Would be kinda fun to see what we can make with bigger engines

[Themohawkninja]

The Ion engines are balanced as far as gameplay is concerned, and we don't exactly need to add larger xenon tanks, since 700 gets you to a lot places. I wouldn't mind seeing some 1.25 or 2.5 meter ion engines though. I am all for the idea of having one engine type for every size.

[Anton P. Nym]

The main problem i see with them is that they don't really have a purpose. Anywhere you can get to with ion's, you can get with any other engine, faster. Also since they are so tiny, you cant power anything larger than a toothpick with them for lag reasons.

Buff them? Nah, the game just needs to implement more suitable situations for them, also bigger versions.

I think ions will come into their own when Career mode hits because they end up vastly cheaper than the alternatives. They have huge mass savings, which means smaller launch stages, which means even more mass savings in a virtual spiral. I've got a prototype Moho orbiter waiting in orbit for the launch window; on the pad it weighed under 10T, and total cost was about the same as the first stage booster of my more-conventional Moho orbiter design.

There's MiniMoho. I think I'll try the same design for a Dres orbiter when that window opens up.

-- Steve

[Senja123]

Just bigger versions sound fine.

[Sandermatt]

As Ion engines will hardly ever destroy a vessel through their thrust, it would be interessting to allow much higher time warps if only ion engines are on.