Concerns on the Uranus analog

[Omicron314]

I just hope it looks like a gas giant from orbit, and not a giant space rock. While that would be pretty awesome, I think it would be best to stick with the basic setup of our own solar system.

[Amazonys]

Personally I'd much prefer the Uranus analogue to be without the rocky-core. Seeing that gas giants are widely known to have metallic cores due to pressure, it seems non-consistent with the fact that Jool doesn't have a "rocky" core to explore. Furthermore these "rocky" cores are preceded my thousands of kilometers of pressurised liquids. So yes, Jool can be landed on through glitches, and you could lessen the gravity of the planet to make it more easily escapable; but those feel more like aversions to a problem rather than realistic gameplay decisions.

My counterproposal would be, to reiterate some ideas above: the Uranus analogue would be on nearly a 90 degree axial tilt, but remain a gas giant akin to Jool which is already in the game. Also the moons of this analogue would revolve nearly perpendicular to the solar plane. Also if rings are ever feasible then some of those would be necessary per the real life Uranus.

Furthermore seeing as SQUAD has stated that Jool will have the largest moons in the game, and there is a distinct lacking of an object with a radius of 400km, I'd say have large one moon orbiting at that size (in addition to other interesting, smaller moons). This moon as a Titan/Oberon analogue would have a thick atmosphere with high mountains and perhaps small lakes. (Not a beach like Laythe, but cold, dreary and devoid of life) This atmosphere would thick but escapable, its gravity "just-a-bit-more-than-Duna's." It could be in perpetual storms and haze reducing visibility range. So the high incline orbit, thick atmosphere, rings, and distance from the sun and inability to see where you are landing would make this moon extremely difficult to land on. Seeing as this would be the last of the promised 3 gas giants, it would represent the endgame of exploration and should be difficult in every aspect, but keep in line with what currently exists in game.

TL;DR no rocky-core, just convert those existing ideas to a moon of said giant for the sake of consistency and gameplay

Just my 2 cents

[jfx]

Turns out it's actually 11% lower. TIL.

http://www.universetoday.com/18947/gravity-on-uranus/

So it's all good with tall mountains and return missions.

I figure that at worst atmospheric pressure at the surface could be 'interesting'.

Uranus has no "surface". It is Gas -> supercritical fluid -> fluid -> ice. If you'd replace that with a typical rocky core of the same size the gravity will be crushing since the solid (rock, molten core etc) is much denser.

Edited September 29, 2013 by jfx

[lajoswinkler]

Moho was similar to Uranus.

http://i.imgur.com/mAmtP.jpg

Hot atmosphere, brown...

(honestly, this just had to be the developers' joke, only a fool wouldn't recognize what's going on with it)

Kidding aside, I'd like to see actual damage to the equipment sent to high pressure environments. Wouldn't it be nice if a fuel tank would cave in like a squashed soda can, and windows on landers were bursting? Maybe there could be an option for career mode to take existent equipment and use money to pimp it up for such missions. Maybe to send a probe which will last longer if more resources are spent on it, and then will just be broken and left there as a reminder? That would be nice. We've got Soviet probes on Venus which are today half squashed metallic corpses.

I don't see a reason to send Kerbals everywhere. Not everything in space needs to be visited. Humans will never land on the surface of a neutron star. Never ever. We won't even send a probe there. We will never swim in Jupiter's metallic oceans or surf on the Sun's waves of plasma.

There are places that will forever remain out of our reach. So what? Is that a reason to make us angry or sad? Of course not.

I've measured almost 990°C deep in Jool and more than 15 atmospheres of pressure. That's cool, but would be cooler if the equipment was actually destroyed in the process and if it was like that on Eve.

I don't agree with making a rocky giant. It's very unrealistic. If we have a gas giant the size of Jool, larger planet will also be a gas giant.

If there is already a set of internal KSP rules and physical laws, with everything 10x smaller, with changed gravitational constant, then let it be.

Eve should be changed. Increase its surface temperature and pressures, give it a thick shroud, a cloud blanket, and leave the gas giants be the best at what they do the best already - hosting a nice satellite system.

Uranus has no "surface". It is Gas -> supercritical fluid -> fluid -> ice. If you'd replace that with a typical rocky core of the same size the gravity will be crushing since the solid (rock, molten core etc) is much denser.

No, that's not how it goes in gas giants.

When you descent down, you get from gas into supercritical fluid (no apparent phase transition) and it gets denser and hotter. The center contains "rock", meaning heavy elements. There are no literal rocks inside, it's a planetary geology term ("ice" means volatiles, "gas" means "permanent gasses", it's a naming convention). The core is a very compressed mixture of iron, nickel and other heavy elements ("rock") at extremely high temperatures. It's compressed plasma.

Edited September 29, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[MajorSystemError]

This Uranus analog sounds awesome, I can't wait to start exploring it.

Yes....I too cannot wait to start exploring...Uranus....*sigh*. Can we please take Futurama's idea and rename this planet "Urectum" to stop that stupid joke once and for all?

Backing quietly out of the thread now.....

[Kulebron]

Turns out it's actually 11% lower. TIL.

http://www.universetoday.com/18947/gravity-on-uranus/

So it's all good with tall mountains and return missions.

I figure that at worst atmospheric pressure at the surface could be 'interesting'.

I confused Uranus with Saturn, as always. You're right.

[magnemoe]

Why would a player want to visit it? For the challenge, that's why. I built a 600-ton rolling base specifically for a mission to Eve, and that's only because the stock wheels couldn't take the strain of what I was asking them to do (the one I eventually sent weighed more than twice as much as the initial version, which used stock wheels). I would LOVE to see a planet with higher Gs and harsher conditions, to push my engineering skills to the absolute, ultimate limit - that's WHY I play KSP. I relish the challenge of designing a functional vehicle that can operate in an environment like that.

Also, FYI: I have SEEN players "land" on Jool (0/negative altitude) and return to orbit. Stock. NOTHING in this game is impossible.

http://imgur.com/a/dahmU#0

Probably this. And yes I would like more challenges, one benefit of Jool is that the gravity is pretty low.

You can get off Eve with an 18 ton lander, down below 6 at highest point and putting kerbal on an ladder.

[rodion]

Yes....I too cannot wait to start exploring...Uranus....*sigh*. Can we please take Futurama's idea and rename this planet "Urectum" to stop that stupid joke once and for all?

Backing quietly out of the thread now.....

The joke has a significantly shorter shelf life if you teach people to pronounce Uranus correctly...

[Commander Zoom]

For brevity's sake, I agree with everything Amazonys said.

[thunderstar]

in real life uranus is not a gas giant, its some like of "super earth" with a very thick atmosphere, its not a gas giant because its has a solid rock surface, even it's surface gravity it's like 6% more than on earth like one user previously mentioned, so i think it will be a large planet, problably a little larger than eve with a thick atmosphere

[Amazonys]

in real life uranus is not a gas giant, its some like of "super earth" with a very thick atmosphere, its not a gas giant because its has a solid rock surface, even it's surface gravity it's like 6% more than on earth like one user previously mentioned, so i think it will be a large planet, problably a little larger than eve with a thick atmosphere

I agree a super earth would be cool but I'd argue against it being in the original Kerbol system due to its analogue theme. Also Uranus is not a super earth, it is an "ice giant" a type of gas giant.

From Wikipedia:

composed...primarily of various ices, such as water, ammonia, and methane... For this reason, astronomers sometimes place them in a separate category called "ice giants".

Composition breakdown for anyone interested.

Uranus' Composition

For brevity's sake, I agree with everything Amazonys said.

[Holo]

So Squad dev Mike (better known as Mu) mentioned in the devstream Friday about a Uranus analog, basically it will be a gas giant sized planet with a thick atmosphere, but instead of being a gas giant it will have a rocky surface that will be hidden under clouds and the thick atmosphere.

Normally I wouldn't put up a fuss about things but this has me concerned as they will be putting work into designing a planet that will be pointless for players to visit. Why will it be pointless? Well you will have a gas giant sized planet, with a gas giant sized gravity and extremely thick atmosphere, most likely much more so than Eve. Many long time players already know the challenge of getting around and off of Eve. Now imagine Eve infinitely worse though, a trap where nothing you land there will be able to get only a few meters off the ground at best, G's would be so extreme that it would kill Kerbals if you did manage to make a craft that could potentially escape (when G effects are added anyways). Then there would be the gravity issues, your craft will break extremely easily due to the extreme gravity, if a Kerbal fell over would they even be able to stand back up for that matter? Also it's distance would make it that much less favorable for some players.

My point is, if Squad went ahead and put this planet in, why would a player want to visit it? Unless they had modded engine parts and quantum struts it would just be so much more trouble than it would be worth with so little reward. I know there are a few players that like the near-impossible challenges, but this just seems plain impossible, like trying to land on Jool and return with stock parts impossible. I think a better decision would be to make this planet a gas giant and instead give one of its moons an extremely thick atmosphere with the mountainous terrain.

Pointless for players to visit? Why wouldn't you want to visit it? Such high pressure and atmosphere would create some beautiful rock formations, upper atmosphere gliders would be glorious, and Kerbals would be able to walk on it with ease if they had the aid of a robotic exoskeleton.

Anyway, I haven't saw anyone land on the Sun yet. What's the point on having it?

Edited September 29, 2013 by Holo

[czokletmuss]

No, the planet Eeloo is to become a moon of is the Saturn analog that was shown during Kerbalkon 2012, it's to be larger than Jool and have rings.

Is there any footage of this? Do you have link to it by any chance?

[Amazonys]

Is there any footage of this? Do you have link to it by any chance?

Here ya go, Google Search really IS handy There are no rings because SQUAD is still trying to get them to work. So nothing is final but this is what has been seen so far:

I do remember that we got a teaser pic for a new gas giant a short while back. Eeloo and a few other moons will orbit it.

-snip image in place of url-

Saturn Analogue Picture

Edited September 29, 2013 by Amazonys
grammar

[EleSigma]

Is there any footage of this? Do you have link to it by any chance?

Crap, I used to keep a link to the Kerbalkon 2012 video that had it's picture on me. XP

Here is the wiki article:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Gas_planet_2

[NoMrBond]

I'd go there for the same reason as everywhere else, for science.

Just because it'd be difficult to have a crew manually touch the rocky surface doesn't preclude it as an interesting location for other means of exploration

[PDCWolf]

They call it an Uranus analogue but the game can't into wind nor atmospheric haze, it also can't do rings, No real size planets either and this "Uranus analogue" also is rocky.

Seriously, where's the analogy.

[lajoswinkler]

in real life uranus is not a gas giant, its some like of "super earth" with a very thick atmosphere, its not a gas giant because its has a solid rock surface, even it's surface gravity it's like 6% more than on earth like one user previously mentioned, so i think it will be a large planet, problably a little larger than eve with a thick atmosphere

No.

Once for all, here's an explanation of this picture.

In planetary geology, terms gas, ice and rock are defined like this:

GAS - matter that stays gaseous at temperatures encountered in the nature and is only liquid or solid in the laboratory conditions. Also known as "permanent gases". Notable examples are hydrogen and helium. "Gas" does not mean the matter is gaseous. It means it's hydrogen/helium.

ICE - volatiles such as methane, ammonia, water, carbon dioxide, hydrocarbons, tholins, etc. "Ice" does not mean the matter is solid. It can be in any state of matter.

ROCK - heavy metals (iron, nickel), silicates, other heavy elements. "Rock" does not mean there's actual solid rock like in your garden. "Rock" can be in any state of matter. The composition is what matters.

GAS GIANT - planet mostly made of gases as defined above, with low amounts of ices and a rocky core. If state of matter is concerned, they're mostly supercritical fluids, some degenerate matter such as metallic hydrogen and metallic water and plasma in the center.

ICE GIANT - same thing as gas giant, but with more ices in is composition. They do not contain literal ice. They're basically hot hell beneath their clouds.

Uranus and Neptune are mostly gas by composition, and the mantle in the picture is just part of the planet with a notably larger proportion of ices. Hydrogen and helium still make up most of the matter, and its ratio against the ices drop down as you go deeper. There are no boundaries, no oceans with waves. It's weird, degenerate matter, electrically conductive, very hot and dense and it gets worse as you go towards the core, where you encounter more and more rock.

Edited September 29, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[Moar Boosters]

The joke has a significantly shorter shelf life if you teach people to pronounce Uranus correctly...

Replacing anus with urine really doesn't help that much.

Both are just as correct as each other. The word comes from Latin and there aren't any native Latin speakers alive to tell us how we should really be pronouncing it.

[Amazonys]

They call it an Uranus analogue but the game can't into wind nor atmospheric haze, it also can't do rings, No real size planets either and this "Uranus analogue" also is rocky.

Seriously, where's the analogy.

Hence why some we are arguing against the proposed "rocky-Uranus" in favor of an actual analogue.

-snip clarification-

Uranus and Neptune are mostly gas by composition, and the mantle in the picture is just part of the planet with a notably larger proportion of ices. Hydrogen and helium still make up most of the matter, and its ratio against the ices drop down as you go deeper. There are no boundaries, no oceans with waves. It's weird, degenerate matter, electrically conductive, very hot and dense and it gets worse as you go towards the core, where you encounter more and more rock.

I responded to this guy in one of my posts as well. Thank you for clarifying better/further

Basically it still supports the idea that the Uranus analogue should actually be an analogue not some "rocky super-earth."

I think I said it rather well earlier.

[Josh Harris]

Maybe an Uranus analog refers to it's axial tilt (which may be mentioned above,I only skimmed the thread). A nearly 90 degree tilt could present a challenge for exploration of any moon system, more delta-v requirements for changing inclination.

[Slur]

All I hope for this is, A cool, icy-blue for the atmosphere, and a ring system. I also want to se at least 2-3 moons(possibly with one being Eeloo). Maybe one reminicent of Minmus in a way, with small hills as opposed to the craters that we're used to. As for the third, maybe kind of like Bop or something along those lines.

Edit: Is there any archive of the devstream I could look at? Link?

Edited September 30, 2013 by Slur

[DerpenWolf]

I would love to see a Uranus analog with a near 90 degree axial tilt and a cloudy and thick atmosphere! Considering Uranus is actually quite cold at certain points (about 49K I think) I would expect to see an Icy landscape. I would personal like to see this planet have a cyan or yellowish colored atmosphere (Taking into consideration that the 2nd gas giant will likely be red/orange and that any Neptune analog will probably be blue-purple). As for a name for this planet lets just call it Uran!

[M5000]

He also mentioned deep valleys and high mountains, so that implies that the surface would be solid, so that doesn't prohibit anything outside of something like an Eve lander. Who's to say you can't strand a Kerbal there, and if you don't like killing/stranding Kerbals, you can still launch a probe there..

Maybe this is one of those things that some people simply won't be able to do. It'd add a nice dimension to the game, having some more challenging bodies like Eve would be awesome.

However, Mu also said in the stream, if I remember correctly, that a new planet isn't a priority right now and that it may not be in the next update, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[lajoswinkler]

A gas giant sized KSP planet with solid surface would have a devastating surface gravity. I don't think any part could survive even slow descent. Kerbals themselves would be crushed and could not stand up.

I think it's about the time for the developers to start rounding up the basic rules of KSP universe. If Jool is a gas blob, there simply can't be a planet larger than Jool with rocky surface.

Why not making a rocky monster with 1/4 diameter of Jool? It could still have a hellish atmosphere, and would present the ultimate, unbeatable super-Eve challenge.