0.22 Technologies List

[Sean Mirrsen]

Their first rockets are supposed to be suborbital. They get a decoupler pretty much as their first tech upgrade, and keep getting them as tech advances, I don't really understand what the problem is. Stack decouplers are the logical first step to separate the capsule (it would have taken at least one trip to space and subsequent landing to recognize the need for such a thing), and they get a radial decoupler as one of the items on the next tier, and that's just the default.

For a small inconvenience, you get a much better entry point for rocket construction, as decouplers and staging aren't exactly simple matters to a layman.

[Epthelyn]

Beyond the idea that the Kerbal Space Program starts with Bill, Bob and Jeb heading off to space before any other technology is developed, you could also consider that the technology required to create a functional probe is more than that required to make an engine and attach it to a fuel tank. That can't really be appreciated ingame unless certain mods are used (RemoteTech?) because as far as the player is concerned you're just flying using the same controls etc. just without a few tonnes of dead weight.

This is certainly going to be interesting. I'm used to starting off every save with a 3-man pod lander an orange tank and a mainsail. Mainsails are far down the tech tree

[generalmiller]

The arguement that unmanned is harder than manned control makes no sense. First off using our history as a comparison, since it is the only measure we have, unmanned rockets predate manned rockets by over 15 years. It is easier to design a small probe than a manned capsule due to the technologies going into it. Capsules are harder to make in that they have to actually carry living beings and all the things we need to live from oxygen to warmth. And going by Kerbin's atmosphere and tempature at the KSC they need these things as well to an extent. Obviously they don't need constant resources from a gameplay perspective.

Now that does not mean I am against having the capsule as a start piece, but that at least one probe core should be able to be a starting piece as well. While the point of Kerbals perhaps not having as much care about life and limb as we do in reality is true. Ultimately we are the rulers of their little world in our game and should have the choice as to weather we want to risk their lives or not from the start.

For the tl;dr crowd give us just one probe core to start.

Also I apologize for my numerous grammer errors, but my tablet is exactly cooperating.

Edited October 13, 2013 by generalmiller

[AmpsterMan]

I'd be happy if we just has the Stayputnik at tier1. It's real life counterpart (sputnik) was the first artificial thing in space after all.

[bsalis]

Any information how modifiable would be tech-tree and career mode? Would love to see added B9 and another mods to research;) And some more research parts.

I was thinking the same thing. Though more about if a mod could rearrange the part progression. Or add part improvements... and, as you suggest, include mod parts.

If the tech tree is in human readable text files, like most other things so far. You could probably make the changes yourself.

[ZedNova]

I sometimes put a probe and a manned module on my ships.

[Superfluous J]

The arguement that unmanned is harder than manned control makes no sense.

Your arguements are based on a false premise: That we work for NASA. Of course it'd be easier (and less dangerous) to design a probe (and program it to do what you want without your directly controlling it) than it would be to design and implement all of the spacecraft features to keep someone alive. That's not what Squad is considering when they think something is easier, though. They are considering what is easier for the PLAYERS OF THEIR GAME.

The big important thing is that you can fly a manned mission with 3 parts (capsule, fuel, engine) and they work no matter what. If you run out of fuel, it's pretty obvious because the engine stops working. If you run out of power, you still have torque (presumably because the Kerbals are doing something mechanically inside the ship). If you're using a probe, you need those 3 parts PLUS a way to generate power and a way to store power. You have to pay WAY more attention to how much power you have and how much power your wheels take to make turns. It's a LOT harder. It's not hard for US. It's hard for people who have never played before.

Also, there is no obvious indication that you've run out of power unless you know what to look for. I know I personally was quite confused the first time my probe ran out of power. I did figure it out eventually but I could see the forums becoming littered with "CRITICAL BUG: My space ship stops working after about a minute." posts. Nobody wants that.

I personally want probe cores in the first tier. I want to have to go to space with one before I can develop a capsule. I want to mimic Human spaceflight at least superficially. But I wholly completely understand where Squad is coming from here.

I sometimes put a probe and a manned module on my ships.

I rarely don't do this. Usually I have a few probe cores and at least one manned module, plus a few hab modules. I like things modular and it's easier to mix and match stuff in orbit if everything's got a brain to control it.

Edited October 13, 2013 by 5thHorseman

[magnemoe]

The arguement that unmanned is harder than manned control makes no sense. First off using our history as a comparison, since it is the only measure we have, unmanned rockets predate manned rockets by over 15 years. It is easier to design a small probe than a manned capsule due to the technologies going into it. Capsules are harder to make in that they have to actually carry living beings and all the things we need to live from oxygen to warmth. And going by Kerbin's atmosphere and tempature at the KSC they need these things as well to an extent. Obviously they don't need constant resources from a gameplay perspective.

Now that does not mean I am against having the capsule as a start piece, but that at least one probe core should be able to be a starting piece as well. While the point of Kerbals perhaps not having as much care about life and limb as we do in reality is true. Ultimately we are the rulers of their little world in our game and should have the choice as to weather we want to risk their lives or not from the start.

For the tl;dr crowd give us just one probe core to start.

Also I apologize for my numerous grammer errors, but my tablet is exactly cooperating.

Think the kerbal space program is pretty much steam or dieselpunk, they don't have much in the area of electronic and computers, at most they have something who keep the rocket pointed in correct direction, and yes its and the radio is the only thing who uses power in an basic rocket.

Probes was something who came later out of need.

And don't get hanged up in the lack of decoplers, you get it in tire one after 5 science. High chance you don't have to launch at all to get 5 science, just put an pod on the pad and do science.

Now you have an basic rocket who can take you to space and back safety.

[Pulstar]

The tech tree's layout from what I understand is a compromise between learning curve, logical technology progress and difficulty curve. That first and last bit are for a lot of us a non-issue since we have been playing KSP for a while now, hence we focus on just the "logical technological progress" aspect. For us probes or indeed decouplers seem like the basic thing you should start with. This however is not the case when taking both learning curve and difficulty curve into consideration.

The starting node allows you to build a rocket, a basic rocket and for some this will be the very first rocket they ever build. So the number of essential things is limited so that a new player can grasp how this whole rocket launching thing works, hence:

- no decouplers, launch clamps or anything that requires setting up proper staging order apart from parachutes (because you don't want the player to kill Jeb)

- no parts requiring more electricity than the command pod can store

That way the amount of failure in trying to launch a rocket is limited and the learning curve is eased. Essentially theytwo ways you can fail with the starting node parts is not attaching a parachute, opening the parachute during launch, making it too heavy for the single engine and by making flight mistakes as you learn the controls. If you successfully launch your rocket, you should have an experiment done in flight or upon landing with enough tasty SCIENCE! to advance further. This is basically the game checking if you grasp how to fly and build rockets. If you do it gives you more parts to learn to use them. This is also why you get no choice in nodes until tier 3. The tier 2 node is supposed to check if the player gets how research works by introducing a proper experiment part. Adding probes, electricity management, asparagus staging, struts and yes even decouplers is a bit too much if you want the player to grasp how to build and fly rockets basic rockets. It's easier to master 2 or 3 concepts at once than a dozen or two dozen at the same time.

My point is that the first two nodes are essentially tutorial nodes meant to teach the player how to play the game via an organic learning process, it is possible that there will be a (hopefully optional) tutorial or help messages in place to further aid the new player alongside them. If only so they know that you can right click on parts and so that they can understand how staging works. And so that they don't forget parachutes. But you get the idea, this is as much about teaching a new player how to go into space as much as it is about simulating how rocketry works and how it evolved.

[Maddmatts]

I'm impressed SkyRender typed the whole list out. But, the devs on the squadcast said that changes to it were so frequent that what they showed was already obsolete. Changes were made and more were likely to follow before release.

[p3asant]

Scary seeing batteries so far down the line .

[RocketPilot573]

*snip*

Hmm, that actually makes sense... But in that case, I hope the devs can add to different versions of the tech tree, the current one (as seen in the live streams) can be for new players, and a more realistic one for old players. Then there could be some sort of option is the main menu.

I really don't want to have to land Kerbals on the Mun and Duna before probes are even invented... It would be nice if we could send a few probes to space before Jeb even thinks about getting in a rocket.

Edited October 13, 2013 by RocketPilot573

[SkyRender]

There were actually a few discrepancies in the tech tree even between streamers that night. Some of them had no batteries available until unlocking Electrics, while others were able to access batteries on tier 4 as seen above. As I noted, the list is subject to (and likely already has undergone) change, but that's a snapshot of where it stood about 2 nights ago.

[Francesco]

I really don't want to have to land Kerbals on the Mun and Duna before probes are even invented... It would be nice if we could send a few probes to space before Jeb even thinks about getting in a rocket.

But that's exactly what we were doing before 0.18, no?

So what's the problem?

C7 said this clearly during the livestream, they want Kerbals to be the leading actors of this show

This is space exploration: where has the courage of Kerbalkind gone, people?

[Pulstar]

Hmm, that actually makes sense... But in that case, I hope the devs can add to different versions of the tech tree, the current one (as seen in the live streams) can be for new players, and a more realistic one for old players. Then there could be some sort of option is the main menu.

I really don't want to have to land Kerbals on the Mun and Duna before probes are even invented... It would be nice if we could send a few probes to space before Jeb even thinks about getting in a rocket.

It's likely that probes and batteries will be moved way earlier based on player feedback, I also agree that they're a bit too deep and the stayputnik plus a battery should be tier 3 IMO. Also it is totally possible to mod the tech tree yourself, Chad (C7) said during the last squadcast that parts can be swapped around nodes pretty easily since it assigns parts to nodes via a .cfg file IIRC. I'm assuming it's just plain text you can edit yourself like other .cfg files. Also the option to mod in your own nodes and have a fully custom tree will come in the future possibly, but that bit is not guaranteed.

[wolfedg]

Are you under NDA? If not, I think you'll be fine with posting it. Folks here post screenshots of KSP all the time to share and discuss. This is no different.

Ok, I will note that this is a modified version of the screenshot from KSP weekly.

There is not enough room to put the specifics in for each (I Tried) but at least the categories are there.

[Tripzter]

So how do you "level" from 1 tier to the next? Is there a specific mission you have to do or is it xp wise that you grind or what?

[wolfedg]

So how do you "level" from 1 tier to the next? Is there a specific mission you have to do or is it xp wise that you grind or what?

You gain "Science" Points for certain activities that add up. For instance collecting soil samples or using a science experiment module will give you points. Then you spend the points on the tech tree. Based on the videos, one mission is enough to unlock 2 or 3 of the first nodes if done right. I would imagine that it takes a lot more points to get deeper into the tree though.

Edited October 13, 2013 by wolfedg

[Botch]

I was thinking the same thing. Though more about if a mod could rearrange the part progression. Or add part improvements... and, as you suggest, include mod parts.

If the tech tree is in human readable text files, like most other things so far. You could probably make the changes yourself.

Apparently you can add mod parts to the tree. You can also reassign the place of stock parts by editing their text config files---this from the stream on Friday night--so people can start with probes if they want. No word on adding of deleting nodes in the tree or monkeying with the how science points are doled out and spent. But there were some arch hints about code comments and clues for modders--again from the stream--but they didn't say what that meant.

[Jarnis]

I was really really REALLY disappointed to hear from the recent Scott Manley interview with HarvesteR (

) that an advanced player can max out that tree in three flights.

What's the point of the whole feature if you can just go through it in an afternoon?

KSP is sorely lacking gameplay goals. Yes, sandbox is fun in itself but once you have the hang of it, a bit of challenge from "running your own space program" is what we're kinda expecting to come at some point. Now 0.22 is adding first part of that - tech tree - and it seemed like you'd really have to get clever to as to how to explore whole Kerbal system with limited parts, tackling easier goals to research more advanced tech so you could do the harder bits... and now I hear it's going to be more of a "newbie learning tool" to avoid swamping them with the whole parts pile in one go. Huh?

I sincerely disagree with this decision. No, it should not be 50 launch long grind, but I fully expected to have to launch at least a dozen missions to explore around Kerbol system... I mean, what's the point in "doing science" if you gain nothing from the science beyond the first few flights?

Or Just add two modes - one for learning (tech tree completed in a few flights/at your pace) and one for presenting a challenge.

And yeah, I know, players can mod it, yadda yadda... making good, challenging gameplay that is well polished and not filled with exploits is hard. It's kinda what I'd expect to see from the main devs.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Jarnis

[rebelcommando1807]

To be fair, they are probably juggling fifteen things and know how to stage without decouplers effectively. For the average player, it probably will take more than that - As, usually, they don't have everything memorized to the point where they can get a flyby (or landing) of both the Mun and Minmus in one flight at T0, nor do they think to have more than one capsule on a ship, usually. That, and they would have to have enough fuel to burn at the right times to refill the capsule batteries to transmit stuff. Generally.

Just my two cents on the issue. When I think 'advanced' in this sense, I think Manley Mode. And, in this case, it's the crazy advanced people that do stuff like this.

And the main thing to remember is that money will be a balancing factor in a future update so that people can't just make T0 interplanetary ships right from the get-go.

[Jarnis]

To be fair, they are probably juggling fifteen things and know how to stage without decouplers effectively. For the average player, it probably will take more than that - As, usually, they don't have everything memorized to the point where they can get a flyby (or landing) of both the Mun and Minmus in one flight at T0, nor do they think to have more than one capsule on a ship, usually. That, and they would have to have enough fuel to burn at the right times to refill the capsule batteries to transmit stuff. Generally.

Just my two cents on the issue. When I think 'advanced' in this sense, I think Manley Mode. And, in this case, it's the crazy advanced people that do stuff like this.

And the main thing to remember is that money will be a balancing factor in a future update so that people can't just make T0 interplanetary ships right from the get-go.

You can't make T0 interplanetary ships. No decoupler. Just getting to Mun at T0 is going to require SRB antics.

My worry is that the tiers are doled out as "freebies" - basically go to Mun, Land, Get Soil Sample, Get back and boom, half the tree is open. That's what it sound like to me...

[Superfluous J]

You can't make T0 interplanetary ships. No decoupler. Just getting to Mun at T0 is going to require SRB antics.

My worry is that the tiers are doled out as "freebies" - basically go to Mun, Land, Get Soil Sample, Get back and boom, half the tree is open. That's what it sound like to me...

Is that how you define "advanced player"? Ability to get to Mun and back? Because that makes just about everybody who's played for more than a few hours an advanced player. I think someone who can get to Gilly on T0 parts is more what they're talking here, and that's outside my league by far.

You say interplanetary on T0 isn't going to happen. If you can get to Mun you can get to another planet. It's not that much more to some places. That said, as I said I can't do it. I'm having trouble getting into orbit with T0 parts. Or more aptly, I'm having trouble getting off the launch pad with a T0 ship that has enough Delta-V to get into orbit.

[FITorion]

You can't make T0 interplanetary ships. No decoupler. Just getting to Mun at T0 is going to require SRB antics.

My worry is that the tiers are doled out as "freebies" - basically go to Mun, Land, Get Soil Sample, Get back and boom, half the tree is open. That's what it sound like to me...

Oh yes you can. Scott made it to Duna with T0 parts. He can unlock the whole tech tree in 3 flights. The first one with T0 parts going to the Mun and Minmus and back.

This is hard to do. It will become harder/impossible when they add money... but regardless... advanced players can and will find the most efficient ways to progress through the tech tree.

[wolfedg]

Oh yes you can. Scott made it to Duna with T0 parts. He can unlock the whole tech tree in 3 flights. The first one with T0 parts going to the Mun and Minmus and back.

This is hard to do. It will become harder/impossible when they add money... but regardless... advanced players can and will find the most efficient ways to progress through the tech tree.

Once they add money into the equation, it should help slow people down.