[0.90]Kerbal Isp Difficulty Scaler v1.4.2; 12/16/14

[KerbMav]

I made a booboo ...

Can you make KIDS original presets undeletable ... ?

*reinstalls mod files*

Probably not worth the time just because I am once more to ... skill-challenged.

Oh, and thank you!

Just use the Stock preset and make sure the "Thrust Varies with ISP" is checked to only have the arcturus functionality enabled.

Edited November 8, 2013 by KerbMav

[Absolute Human]

I need to second the question about "how to make it work like Arcturus"

Just use the Stock preset and make sure the "Thrust Varies with ISP" is checked to only have the arcturus functionality enabled.

I tried that and what I got is:

Ridiculous thrust in vacuum and 60 near ground, instead of expected 17 and 60.

So, is it even capable to work this way?

I would like to have that "extend curve to 0" option, but for know I dont know what do do with that

Edited December 10, 2013 by Absolute Human

[KerbMav]

Try these settings.

Edit: But my poodle also has 350kN instead of 220 in space though ...

Edited December 4, 2013 by KerbMav

[KerbMav]

A Mainsail - freshly unlocked - gains 200+kN thrust in vacuum.

[ferram4]

Considering that the standard "rating" settings assume that the Mainsail (and the Skipper too, IIRC) are rated for 1 atm. This means that KIDS calculates things so that the Mainsail makes 1500 kN on the pad, but then thrust increases above that as altitude increases. This allows you to easily figure out TWR with the heavy-lifting engines when you're designing your launch vehicle. Essentially, it applies real-life logic to the thrust values state in the editor for each engine.

[KerbMav]

I am torn ... although I like the realism-patch KIDS applies.

It makes the engines burn a constant amount of fuel per second for less thrust while in an atmosphere instead of them burning more fuel while in an atmosphere for a constant amount of thrust - so this seems to level itself out somehow.

In the end KIDS makes flying "easier" in space, but this was never really a problem anyway.

On the other hand it makes launches a bit more difficult in the first 10-20 thousand kilometers.

So, making the atmosphere more slippery with FAR and cor-real-ecting the stock behaviour of the engines with KIDS - does this make Eve takeoffs ... hmmm ... I should play more and think less? But is KSP not all about thinking about thess things?

[Absolute Human]

Considering that the standard "rating" settings assume that the Mainsail (and the Skipper too, IIRC) are rated for 1 atm. This means that KIDS calculates things so that the Mainsail makes 1500 kN on the pad, but then thrust increases above that as altitude increases. This allows you to easily figure out TWR with the heavy-lifting engines when you're designing your launch vehicle. Essentially, it applies real-life logic to the thrust values state in the editor for each engine.

So you find it normal, that the nuclear engine makes 220 kN instead of 60, am I right?

This way it is not anyhow equal alternative to Arcturus, but another *cough* cheaty *cough* mod...

The point of Arcurus thrust corrector is that it makes takeoffs harder, but honestly realistical and logical.

Of course you can't take off the ground on LVN ot LV-99 with it! Because these engines are meant to work in vacuum.

You just need to add more appropriate engines on lower stages!

It replaced stock enormous (illogically) consumption on low altitudes with realistically lower thrust. So it's a tradeoff.

Your mod just make all engines X times more powerfull in space. So it is cheating.

The real thing from it that I want is that "extended to 0 curve" which arcturus don't have.

Maybe you should consider adding an option to choose which pressure should be considered a reference point for thrust-

1 atm or vacuum, or maybe something intermediate... This way the mod will be more flexible and will suit more people.

It's all up to you, of course, just my point of view and logic.

If you don't find it logical or valuable, than I could only come back to using Arcturus TC as long as it works fine...

Edited December 14, 2013 by Absolute Human

[a.g.]

It looks like 'no cutoff' mode is broken, so you have to specify some cutoffs. Setting isp cutoff to 0 would effectively mean always vacuum.

[Zyglrox]

I have registered just to say thanks for this!

I wanted to use Real Solar System mod just for the look and feel of it, but RSS requires to install several other mods just to be playable. But I don't want to install tons of mods or any weird parts which break my stock designs, I just want "as stock as possible" gameplay in RSS-sized system. With normal parts, it looks like almost everything in RSS requires 3-4 times more delta-v, except getting to orbit (cutting through that atmosphere is ridiculous), with FAR low orbit is ~10000 delta-v.

So, with RSS+FAR+KIDS, 3x/3x multipliers and "Thrust varies with Isp" checked, I can finally get my stock crafts to low orbits! It will probably require some tuning, more like 2.5x/3x to make it slightly harder, but it's amazing how this plugin changes game difficulty. No turning back for me.

[ferram4]

Alright, version 1.3 is out, with KSP 0.23 compatibility and the first attempt at ModularFuels support.

[DasBananenbrot]

Alright, version 1.3 is out, with KSP 0.23 compatibility and the first attempt at ModularFuels support.

Not only compatibility update but also first try at MFS support? You rock ferram

[ferram4]

It worked in 0.22, but without a functional MFS in 0.23 I had to hope that it would work.

I also forgot to mention, Toolbar support as well, thanks to blizzy78; I'll put that in the first post.

[NathanKell]

MFS v4 for .23 is Real Soon Now since taniwha kindly rewrote a good chunk of it for .23 compatibility.

[ferram4]

Updated to version 1.3.1, which fixes the issue where activating the thrust corrector but not setting any cutoffs would cause all engines to be atm-rated rather than vac-rated as intended. This means that activating the thrust corrector alone will give behavior similar to the old Arcturus Thrust Corrector plugin.

[Black-Talon]

I might be missing some things but I'm experiencing some odd behavior on my first try of this mod (downloaded a few hours ago). I'm shooting for an experience where I use FAR (and deadly re-entry) but difficulty is equivalent (or marginally harder) than stock. With this goal I've chosen FAR to Stock KSP, Atmosphere Only.

I like the idea of thrust scaling as well, but I see your thoughts on how this doesn't make much sense for atmosphere only. For now I'm trying to sort out what I actually would expect from that aspect.

I just updated to 1.3.1 after the initial oddness and will continue to explore. Thus far I'm fairly certain this is impacting Jet Engines by mistake? Meanwhile, I think Jet Engines were overpowered in stock from my perspective? And FAR only makes them more overpowered? So ideally there should be a way to increase their difficulty to stock levels as well. I assume this problem will exist with the RAPIER engines if nothing else.

Anyway, back to 1.3.1 to see if it fixes my other confusion points. I'm optimistic and excited that this is perfect for using FAR full time instead of only when I want to play with planes!

[Black-Talon]

Ok, a couple tests in and I've confirmed my other point of confusion. I don't think I understand what "Extend Curve to Zero Isp" means, perhaps you could help me see where/when this would fit.

My assumption is that ISP already scales based on atmospheric pressure and that an engine that had 300 ISP at sea level would have less than 300 at higher pressures if this option was on. And would hold steady at 300 for higher pressures when the option is off. I'd then presume that behavior between 0 and 1 atmospheric pressure would remain the same. And lastly I presume (perhaps wrongly) that atmospheric pressure is 1 at kerbin sea level and goes down to zero as you climb in altitude. I don't know any places on Kerbin where I could experience pressure greater than 1? Thus on Kerbin this setting wouldn't effect my ISP?

My flight with LV-T30's shows my ISP falling as I take off from KSP...I'd assume it would raise? At 2,500 m my LV-T30's have an ISP of ~15 and since I'm not currently using the thrust scaling that means my fuel just blows out of the engine. Kinda neat to see it happen in a "wow, isp actually works the way I'd think in a very dramatic fashion!" sorta way. But unfortunately I'm very confused on why this is the case.

Since I actually have no idea what is going on with pressure I'm attaching a barometer and running another test... data points are best effort...

On the pad - LV-T30 is at 121.4 isp - Pressure is 0.982

1,000 m - 84 isp - 0.8154

2,000 m - 27 isp - 0.643

When I don't have the "Extend to Zero" setting on I get the following approximate data points

pad - 122.2 - 0.9818

1,000 m - 146.2 - 0.8154

2,000 m - 189.7 - 0.6641

So, I'm clearly not understanding something. Or ... does an atmospheric rated engine perform worse in vacuum and this setting is enforcing that? Or bug?

[ferram4]

That's a bug. Even atm-rated engines perform better in vacuum than at their design point... I'll investigate. Otherwise, the ay that you thought it was supposed to work is correct.

Edit: turns out it was a sign error in the calculation of the pressure that Isp hit 0.01s (actually sending it to zero causes problems). Version 1.3.2 is out, fixing the issue.

Edited December 19, 2013 by ferram4

[Spooks]

i only see a dark small emty window am i doing something wrong ?

[Joseph_Terran]

bit of an interesting issue happening here. I have ISP loaded from the latest addition and seem to be having a tool issue. I see the FAR button, but not the ISP button except when the loading screen shows up, and only for a second. using a lot of mods, so it may be a conflicting issue rather than just ISP by itself.

[Black-Talon]

That's a bug. Even atm-rated engines perform better in vacuum than at their design point... I'll investigate. Otherwise, the ay that you thought it was supposed to work is correct.

Edit: turns out it was a sign error in the calculation of the pressure that Isp hit 0.01s (actually sending it to zero causes problems). Version 1.3.2 is out, fixing the issue.

Awesome! And so quickly! Thank you!

Could I get some clarification on what to expect with Jet engines? And SRBs? Based on your commentary earlier in the thread I was a little confused by the results I was having with the TurboJet. I haven't tested SRB but would like to.

[ferram4]

@Spooks: Did you copy over the 000_Toolbar folder? Does KSP have proper write permissions in the folder you've installed it in?

@Joseph_Terran: The KIDS button should appear in the space center view; does it not appear? Try deleting the toolbar-settings.dat in the GameData folder and see if that helps.

@Black-Talon: Jet engines will be scaled down approximately the same amount as the other engines while still trying to preserve the Isp curve. If ExtendToZero is set then jets with lower Isp at sea level will have a zero Isp point like rocket engines; jets with higher Isp at sea level than in the upper atmosphere should be unaffected. SRBs will be affected just like any other rocket engine.

[Spooks]

@Spooks: Did you copy over the 000_Toolbar folder? Does KSP have proper write permissions in the folder you've installed it in?

@Joseph_Terran: The KIDS button should appear in the space center view; does it not appear? Try deleting the toolbar-settings.dat in the GameData folder and see if that helps.

@Black-Talon: Jet engines will be scaled down approximately the same amount as the other engines while still trying to preserve the Isp curve. If ExtendToZero is set then jets with lower Isp at sea level will have a zero Isp point like rocket engines; jets with higher Isp at sea level than in the upper atmosphere should be unaffected. SRBs will be affected just like any other rocket engine.

its working now thanks alote didant see i need the toolbar

[Joseph_Terran]

@Joseph_Terran: The KIDS button should appear in the space center view; does it not appear? Try deleting the toolbar-settings.dat in the GameData folder and see if that helps.

Spot On! working great. now to feed my masochism. Thanks for these great mods

[FlowerChild]

now to feed my masochism.

Time to install a little BTSM then man...

(sorry for the OT Ferram, couldn't resist the gag when I read the above )

[Amazingteknique]

Im currently trying to use this with modular real fuels to make things more difficult and ease myself towards real scale solar system but as is I dont think this is changing anything for me as far as I can tell. Just wondering what the compatibility is currently with modular fuels