The Grand 0.22 Discussion Thread

[ThesaurusRex]

Hmm, something isn't quite right here...

D'ah, must be my imagination!

(Also, by noting the aircraft's choice of landing gear you can get a good idea of the tech tree not getting its priorities straight )

[MinerEdgar]

Ah I too have got Aircraft parts before wheeled gear.

[Mrwood]

Comments on .22 and Science:

The game REALLY needs some in game instruction regarding HOW to conduct science. I would suggest a tab on the tech tree view.

I did orbits and returns around nun and minimus and only received 20 or so science reports each. (after reading several forum posts I probably only got credit for the capsule return)

I attempted several EVAs with the initial pod. I was never able to get back into the pod. (I kept bouncing off every time I attempted to grab the capsule).

The I can't maneuver on launch within the atmosphere... also the sas eats too much charge when making orientation changes.

[Lundmunchkins]

Yay! I'm the first player to land on Ike! http://imgur.com/a/eLQh7#0

[Rizendell]

I'm sorry, but the antennae get progressively worse as you go up the tech tree and the need to right click experiments while flying and transmit the data and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over to progress is a terrible mechanic.

I suggest that experiments actually take reasonable amounts of time to complete instead of this non-sense spamming right click and then sending the data. and the antenna's need a serious revision, specifically in terms of the damn deployment animation needing to happen every single time. I mean why the hell create the ****ing career mode if people can complete it in two or three launches because of bad game play mechanics?

[jshier]

It's not done yet. Calm down.

Edited October 20, 2013 by UbioZur
Watch out for the language

[Kananga]

This is fun: Science Jr works just fine with something attached on each side. I've been pairing it up with a couple of mystery goo containers, it's quite convenient.

But that's not the fun part.

Try it with a pair of lt-1 landing struts and a mk16-xl parachute...

[Traches]

Riz, try setting up all your science bits on an action group. Makes it super easy.

[AmpsterMan]

*stuff*

Well, you can map the Control Pod and any science items to a control group. Furthermore, you could right-click or use an action group to extend the antennae as well (not sure if transmission can be mapped to an action group as well.)

I dunno. I think if you have the skill, ability, tenacity, intelligence, power, and/or engineering skills to get all the science in such few flights you honestly deserve it. I for one am pacing myself just as I do in other games.

[ThesaurusRex]

thiiiiings

You know, you can always choose to keep the data and bring it back to Kerbin

[Mr. Scruffy]

Rizendell does have a point, though, i think.

I know, it´s been a deliberate design decision to not make players wait for science. I am very much on the fence, if i can agree to that decision, though. I dont quite see the difference between waiting and repeating.

As i see it, you can extract a certain amount of science from any specific experiment - and to that amount of science is directly linked a certain amount of data. I think, the player should be able to extent any experiment´s duration for as long as the conditions (´biome´, ´altitude´ etc.) persist and keep gathering data for as long as he does. If he does it for a very long time, he´ll have gathered a great amount of data, which he could transmit in one go (with interuptions, if power shortages occur). With this, i dont see a reason for this data-loss percentage any more either:´Reaping´ all science from one experiment could take quite a while and even longer to transmit, while those that are brought home, would be instantanious after recovery. Since it doesnt make a difference in the sums of both approaches, it would be up to player preference (more payload for taking samples home -> less time&energy for experiments and transmissions needed), just like it is now. The basic change i am suggesting then amounts to: Instead of having a sample taken home be worth x times the experiment conducted in space with the data getting transmitted, it should be worth x mbit of it, and the mbits should accumulate in an analogous (but not neccessarily linear) fashion as time passes while the experiment is being conducted and its conditions persist.

Yeah, i know, time-warp and all that - but how is that any different from, or worse than, clicking the same buttons over and over (even - or even moreso - if it´s just one key)?

[ShadyAct]

Kerbal explosion program SRS BUSINESS > GRRR T_T

You could deal with it, play sandbox, wait until the game is actually done, fix it yourself, use a tech tree mod, or play a different game. Or you can show people the upper limit of how impotent someone's rage can be.

[Jean Deaux]

I've been loving the new career mode. I've lost my Mechjeb in career mode but I've had a lot of fun re-doing things the old-fashion way (manually), it's like learning the game all over again. I do have some feedback about the game I wanted to share now that I'm back in manual mode, and of the update of course.

The tech tree progress doesn't make a lot of sense as others have said, but who says Kerbal's have to develop along the same lines as real life has?

I think it would be helpful to have a Science Mission list. Yes it's nice to find some results on your own, but generally the scientist will have some ideas of areas of interests they wish to study. (And would give a hint as to some science points the player may have not considered obtaining otherwise, particularly the noob player).

Landing has been an exercise in save & repeats, something I'm finding myself really missing (again) is an AGL indicator for landing. I'd suggest having the altimeter indicator automatically swap between AGL and ASL just as the speed indicator automatically swaps between orbital, surface, and DTT speeds, or allow the user to click to change in the same fashion.

Without Mechjeb, there's no tools for the player to see Delta V stats during their build, and true most new players aren't going to understand what that is. Still, it'd be great for such tools to become available as stock features of the game so players can have something other than blind luck getting their ship designs to reach their destinations.

I think my original feedback got lost during the forum wipe last year, but I'd love to see the Astronauts learn piloting skills from the player. After a successful launch, I press a "teach" button or something and all aboard the vessel learn from the maneuver and can now "launch" a ship (A Kerbal version of Mechjeb). Same for landing, docking, etc. Trained Kerbals could teach untrained Kerbals if sent to classrooms to teach/learn/practice. Maybe even have skill levels affecting performance of maneuvers? Who knows, food for thought, debate among yourselves.

I do hope that MJ is allowed again at some point in the career mode as I am finding the some aspects of the game becoming tedious and repetitive (like long burns) particularly bothersome.

[Mr. Scruffy]

...Continuing from post 411...

Take EVA-report for example: The first time you are orbiting the mun with a manned capsule, you will, most likely, repeat the following steps, for about 5 (give or take) times:

- click EVA on the pilot´s portrait

- tilt the cam, so that you can actually see the pilot hanging onto his ship

- right-click the pilot

- click EVA-report

- choose ´keep data´ from the pop-menu

- press ´f´ to bord the ship

- right-click the capsule

- click ´review EVA-report´

- click ´transmit data´

YMMV, but i find that pretty tedious, and while it does give me something to do, i dont think it´s much fun doing it.

Now, the suggestion is to leave the pilot out there, and he´ll keep two data-counters increase their value. The first counter displays the amount of all data gathered on this ´experiment´ (/´report´ or whatever) ever, and is never reset during the same game. The second is the amount of gathered data on this EVA (in this case). Both would rise as time passes during EVA, with a speed depending on the first (if its low, increase will be faster - and vice versa). Once you are not satisfied with the increase anymore (or the experiment had to be broken off, due to change in the environment - e.g. you´ve left orbit around the mun, while the EVA was still ongoing), you go back inside the capsule, and the gathered data (2nd counter) can be sent with one order.*

I´d ´balance´ this in a way, that after a couple of minutes (2-5, maybe, depending on player preference and playstyle, and the experiement at hand, as well as possibly kerbal-skills), you´d find the yield not being worth the waiting time, unless you really dont have anything better to do and really want to squeeze the last bit of science out of this experiment. And you know what - i´d simply make it not being affected by time-warp. Yeah, i know, doesnt seem logical. But this is a game. So: When you switch to time warp, everything may go faster, but your data-accumulation rate would remain the same. Gameplay reason:

If you end up switching time-warp on and off, it´ll not improve immersion (compared to non-effect data-accumulation) and just throw you back from where we started: Pushing a lot of buttons.

*It´d be especially nice if this was implemented, but otherwise too, to be able to set a ´reserve energy´ which the antennaes were not allowed to tap into.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Mr. Scruffy

[Godot]

...

Without Mechjeb, there's no tools for the player to see Delta V stats during their build, and true most new players aren't going to understand what that is. Still, it'd be great for such tools to become available as stock features of the game so players can have something other than blind luck getting their ship designs to reach their destinations.

...

That´s not correct ...

there is Kerbal Engineer Redux which gives you a huge number of Stats ... during built as wel as during flight ...

including TWR and dV for each stage

(which is why it is the first and only mod I have integrated into my Tech Tree)

[Mr. Scruffy]

I've been loving the new career mode. I've lost my Mechjeb in career mode but I've had a lot of fun re-doing things the old-fashion way (manually), it's like learning the game all over again. I do have some feedback about the game I wanted to share now that I'm back in manual mode, and of the update of course.

The tech tree progress doesn't make a lot of sense as others have said, but who says Kerbal's have to develop along the same lines as real life has?

I think it would be helpful to have a Science Mission list. Yes it's nice to find some results on your own, but generally the scientist will have some ideas of areas of interests they wish to study. (And would give a hint as to some science points the player may have not considered obtaining otherwise, particularly the noob player).

Landing has been an exercise in save & repeats, something I'm finding myself really missing (again) is an AGL indicator for landing. I'd suggest having the altimeter indicator automatically swap between AGL and ASL just as the speed indicator automatically swaps between orbital, surface, and DTT speeds, or allow the user to click to change in the same fashion.

Without Mechjeb, there's no tools for the player to see Delta V stats during their build, and true most new players aren't going to understand what that is. Still, it'd be great for such tools to become available as stock features of the game so players can have something other than blind luck getting their ship designs to reach their destinations.

I think my original feedback got lost during the forum wipe last year, but I'd love to see the Astronauts learn piloting skills from the player. After a successful launch, I press a "teach" button or something and all aboard the vessel learn from the maneuver and can now "launch" a ship (A Kerbal version of Mechjeb). Same for landing, docking, etc. Trained Kerbals could teach untrained Kerbals if sent to classrooms to teach/learn/practice. Maybe even have skill levels affecting performance of maneuvers? Who knows, food for thought, debate among yourselves.

I do hope that MJ is allowed again at some point in the career mode as I am finding the some aspects of the game becoming tedious and repetitive (like long burns) particularly bothersome.

I agree. MJ could sort of be its own branch in the tech tree, with its various features being spread along it.

About kerbal skills: I think most games make a big mistake when it comes to experience-accumulation - they reward success, instead of failure. But it is from our failures from which we learn most (if we survive them, that is). Piling experience on top of game-progress for success, while giving none for failure just leads to ´save-scumming´ and the degeneration of any skill-based random element (take spells or mixing potions in Elder Scrolls, as an example), in general. Considering that building rockets will at some point cost you credits (or some other in-game currency), your pilots should gather most experience (in ´atmospheric piloting´ anyways) if their rocket goes to a thousand pieces before even reaching space - if they survive. That will make players consider wether not to roll with the failure (and thus not ´savescum´) if they can afford the loss in credits and give additional reason for escape pods and such.

[Jean Deaux]

That´s not correct ...

there is Kerbal Engineer Redux which gives you a huge number of Stats ... during built as wel as during flight ...

including TWR and dV for each stage

(which is why it is the first and only mod I have integrated into my Tech Tree)

Okay, what I should have said was "without a mod"...

[szekihu]

Hey guys! Sorry for not reading all pages of this topic but clould you tell me the meaning of that cabin shaped icon in the staging queue?

[Superfluous J]

...Continuing from post 411...

Take EVA-report for example: The first time you are orbiting the mun with a manned capsule, you will, most likely, repeat the following steps, for about 5 (give or take) times:

...SNIP...

YMMV, but i find that pretty tedious, and while it does give me something to do, i dont think it´s much fun doing it.

That does sound tedious. I guess that's why I'm not doing it. In fact, I've been leaving the antennae off of my ships. Until I've got solar panels or SOME way to generate power that isn't the engine, it's just not worth the time. I've still got a GLUT of science points I've not used (I'm only unlocking one tree node per successful mission) and so far don't see it being a problem.

For the record, here's what I did as I was going around Mun the first (free-return) time (I did it once):

- Open the goo container and take a reading. (I brought 2, one for on the way and one for he far side)

- Take a crew report.

- Go EVA. Fly around a little for fun and pictures.

- Take an EVA report.

- Go back in the ship.

Then I headed home. Note, I also took a crew report and EVA report around Kerbin and another on the way to Mun. I may have also taken one on the way back, don't remember.

I got 125 science for that mission. Had I done all you suggest I'd have gotten, what, 150? less? Doesn't sound worth it to me.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Well, i usually keep sending stuff until the yield has fallen below 1 point of science for the first time. That means, that the four times you dont do it would all yield more than 1 science, and the first one substatially more. I mean, if i go there to get science, i might as well do it thoroughly, while and once i am there, right? My guess would be that you´d be closer to 250 than 150 points, btw.

EDIT: You know what else? If experiments took time, each kerbal (/probe core) could run one at the same. Meaning a fully manned 3 men capsule could have two goo-containers and a materials bay running and accumulating data at the same time.

EDIT2: Okay, i am going to flesh this out some more.

How about ´no right clicking for science´, basically? Goes like this:

- Not only crewmen, but also probe-cores get a representation in the lower right - add scrollbuttons that hide when they are not needed.

- ´IVA´ in those representations becomes ´PIL´ for piloting.

- Each science module gets its own 3-letter-abbreveation and gets intergrated into this IVA/EVA button array of the crew portraits, if noone is assigned to it (e.g. have one button for each type on board with at least one of its type being ´vacant´).

- Assign a crewman or probecore to any free science module by presssing the corresponding button in the portrait - that´s basically starting the experiment.

- Each science module also becomes part of the part-list on the left-side (stages). Accumulation of data is being presented here for any active module, pretty much akin to heat-bars. Tooltips tell details.*

- Click the part (or bar) of any active module to transmit the data it accumulated since last transmission.

- End data-accumulation by simply reassigning the crewman/probecore

- Pilots gather crew-report data automatically as long as their are not busy flying (e.g. for any 10 second interval without steering input the required pilots gathers some, the idle pilots always do).

- Once an ongoing experiment´s conditions have changed (altitude, SOI, etc.) the untransmitted data gets stored and the assigned crewmen/cores start working on a new experiment. If there are untransmitted ´left-overs´ again (e.g. when the storage of the corresponding module has already been used up), the one of higher science-value gets stored, the other discarded. If you hit the module´s icon or bar for transmission and there is a ´leftover´ in store, you get prompted wether you´d like to send this as well and thus empty storage.

Result: Assign everyone to his/her/its station and let things run pretty much automatically. (And Squad wouldnt need to make up hundreds of little ´flavor´ texts. We are geeks - bars are fine.)

*For the bars i´d suggest: Total length represents all science to be had from this particular experiment (but all would be the same length - so scale inwards). The bar itself would be divided into two colored segments: The science gathered on this type of experiment before and since the last transmission of data concerning it.

The tooltip appearing when hovering the mouse over either bar or icon should give

- the exact numbers of what the bar says,

- the current accumulation rate with its modifiers,

- who or what is assigned to the module,

- if and/or what the storage is occupied with and its scientific value,

- the time and amount of energy it would take to transmit the second segment of the bar (turning into part of the first) and its scientific value.

- if applicable, the time and amount of energy it would take to transmit what´s in store.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Mr. Scruffy

[Nemoricus]

Hey guys! Sorry for not reading all pages of this topic but clould you tell me the meaning of that cabin shaped icon in the staging queue?

Do you mean the capsule icon? When you activate that stage, it will automatically take a crew report. Which is annoying, because that means it will overwrite whatever report is currently in the command pod, with no warning. :/

To avoid this, I suggest either putting the capsule in the very last stage or the very first stage. The first method lets you avoid activating it at all, the second activates it on the launchpad, and you can then overwrite the report later without concern.

[blackice504]

Hello all, I from what I seen as I skimmed through this thread it seemed to point at the new content and everyone seems to be having a woody over and I got to say I do like the new content but I could have waited for that, as the main thing I am waiting on is Optimisation before I go into detail of my point of view this is what System Specs I have on my main.

I have the Real I7 "LGA2011" 4820K @ 3.70Ghz << not the fastest on the block but hammers most machines I seen.

16Gb 1600Mhz 9-9-9-24 G.Skill

Asus 560TI TOP 1Gb << not the newest of cards but for many games would not make a **** of difference.

240Gb SSD Kingston <<< KSP is installed

Windows 7 64bit Ultimate. Windows Engorgement scores in order 7.7 7.9 7.9 7.9 7.9 7.9 Suffice to say it's Engorged MS need to make a larger scale of Wank. LOL

Running KSP .21 and 0.22 I notice the shiny new stuff ok cool but as an Adult I would have like to see a lot of improvement to the performance of the engine, ok this is really hard as the engine is Unity but that will not change as I been told, but I found it really upsetting to see a game I really enjoy and would love to play not doing any major improvements.

First notice the loading time "I go to have a coffee before making some crazy designs" I used to do things like that when I fist starting gaming with computers.....................no improvement on 0.22

played with my massive Single stage space plane ok this plane makes the Antonov 225 look like a mini van... Coasting down the run way LAG hmmmmm no improvement here in fact I am sure its less due to the extra buildings....

finally off the run way, SAS enabled hmm this seems different, for the most part I found the new SAS better Great work guys. "turning could be a bit better as I have to turn it off to get my roll right or make a course correction"

if not a sort of bob back and forth till it gets where I like it. "simple solution over steer"

Checked the screen shot bug.....F12 cheeeze LAAAAG of Death..... sounds repeating..................................Done. ok no improvement there.

Lets crash this super massive death machine I mean single stage space plane with no nukes what so ever.....BS.

Rentry test hmm not bad changed not so much lag but lots of shaky bits. << need more struts.

Hit the ground hard..... BOOOOM LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG of major Death sound skipping looping crash to desktop, check error log aaah the old nemesis 45% RAM used which means 3.6Gb ish has been used by KSP and it ran out of memory.....

42% memory in use.

0 MB physical memory [0 MB free].

0 MB paging file [0 MB free].

0 MB user address space [140 MB free].

Key Points.

Loading time please make this go faster I do have work as well as playing this game and drinking too much coffee while waiting for the game to load = more bathroom breaks.

Super Massive Single Stage Space Plane "FYI its a Cargo Plane for suppling and building my massive space station that does not have any weapons on it.........BS" no support part count is 300ish parts. " I like detail as well as function"

SAS nice work guys I know lot of you don't like it but I find it is an improvement but things can be better.

F12 is it just me or does everyone take screen shots to show off there over complex designs ? <<< this also could be Steam not 100% sure.

Physics um I have no idea what to do due to the Unity Engine or with out Multi-threading at leased I guess GPU off loading would be the easy route. Due to the Nature of Physics Serial Processors Multi-Core or Single core "CPU are Serial" do not perform well for Scientific or Gaming Physics as there is many calculations that need to be run at the same time CPU's are made for Brute force best run on simple Paralleled Processors such as GPU's.

3GB memory limit is really bad idea on this type of game. A: improve memory management B: compile for 64bit.

I really can't wait for these things to happens even if the next update is to fix these things I honestly don't mind and I think other people would be happy deep down if they looked at the big picture.

But the content looked really good especially the sexy Dish and compact Antenna but I could have waited for that.

Let's Optimise!!!!!!. Please. See you in space.

Edited October 20, 2013 by blackice504

[LameLefty]

Instead of talking down to someone at leased get half your facts right after that paper was written about the Alcubierre driver sometime later a few different people slowly kept reducing the power requirement then Harold White did a test in 2012!!!!!! with his tweaked design..

so the point is if there testing it in small scale its plausible with the growth of technology that we might see something in a larger scale like a jet.

Learn 2 grammar. kthxbai

And while you're at it, some university-level mathematics and physics might help your critical reasoning skills when it comes to pie-in-the-sky, non-Newtonian theoretical concept papers floating around on the 'net.

[szekihu]

Do you mean the capsule icon? When you activate that stage, it will automatically take a crew report. Which is annoying, because that means it will overwrite whatever report is currently in the command pod, with no warning. :/

To avoid this, I suggest either putting the capsule in the very last stage or the very first stage. The first method lets you avoid activating it at all, the second activates it on the launchpad, and you can then overwrite the report later without concern.

Thank you so much Nemoricus!

[FluxCap]

I finally am able to generate a good 600 points by visiting a planet and returning with samples and reports (transmitting a few before the returns diminish), so far the mun, minmus, and duna, and unlocked most items to nuclear engines.

I ran out of fuel coming back from Duna actually, so, all was lost except what I could transmit back. I was trying to bring back the larger values, like the soil sample and EVA reports, through a recovery. Cut my losses by transmitting them instead.

But, when I go back and take another soil sample, the value will be lower. So, it seems like that should be processed for value at the facility on Kerbin.

Also, this is why it seems to me (and others) that science missions should be offered. When someone brings back a Duna soil sample, it is worth 250 points or whatever, less for Mun, even less for Minmus. When the vessel is recovered with the item, then the points are rewarded.

That is for large quest type missions such as landings, docking, orbiting, soil samples, EVA reports. This generates the most points, as now, but points are calculated and given during recovery and when missions are complete. Multiple missions can be completed during a single launch and recovery.

Other science can be generated through diminishing returns such as repeating the quest type missions, and performing science on space stations and planet bases. This way, a few points can be generated in case 90 points are needed and only 88 are "in the bank."

Also, points should accumulate and not reset from one launch, or mission, to the next.

Also thought that keeping the data/sample is independent of transmitting. So, someone can land on Duna, grab a sample to bring home, but then still transmit other findings with the diminished returns. If the craft and sample are lost, usually when the craft runs out of fuel on the return, then the player still has those small amount of points. But, the mission can be repeated then to bring back the sample and still retrieve the hundreds of points.