Too easy to get science

[colmo]

I'm not trying to min/max or power-game the science first time out - I'm savouring the progression one small step at a time.

I could slap a load of modules on a large rocket first time out to spam crew and EVA reports, but that doesn't seem fun to me.

[Bandock]

Though I probably would've done a Mun landing much earlier, I decided to just simulate progress of my space program in KSP. I might do it again as more work is done on Career Mode. The cool thing about slower progress is you get to play a bit more on an evolutionary scale where not only your spacecraft designs improve, but also certain subassemblies.

[Seret]

You can burn through a few tiers of the tree pretty fast if you minmax and are an experienced player. But why should the game hamstring players who're already experts? Remember that the R&D process isn't the end of Career Mode, as there will eventually be challenges and contracts that a player can engage even once they've unlocked the full tree, and you'll need to manage money as well as science.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Newsflash: Exploiting game flaws leads to easy game, film at 11.

If everything's too easy for you (and, let's be honest here, if you wiggle your rockets through every loophole there is, it is easy), there's nothing keeping you from imposing your own rules, like I did.

1. No science gathering from below 50km altitude of Kerbin. That logically includes collecting no soil samples (be reasonable, what are we supposedly learning from that?)

2. No "repeat" experiments (you're not really learning a lot of new things from opening that goo box at 70km altitude a billion times, are you?). You may of course do experiments again if you think the altitude changed enough that something new might happen, but if you get a result you already had, dump it.

3. No suicide missions. Actually, all missions have to be done in a fashion that pretty much ensures your kerbonauts come back, that means safety fuel reserves and no hazardous reentry curves.

4. No space EVA on single person crafts. You just don't do that, mmmkay?

5. Most important, play it like you would do in a REAL space program. No insane "straight up, what goes up must come down" flights. Try for a nice suborbital, make it an orbital, let Jeb circle for a few rounds... you get the idea.

And yes, even with those rules it still ain't that hard. You have to be a wee bit more creative to come up with space flights that give you points.

[LoSboccacc]

Probably best an adaptive system.

After you fly to duna all science from kerbin becomes a lot less valuable an so on.

So the faster you push the limits the faster you burn out and need even more complex contraption to grt valuable science.

[nhnifong]

I've wrote a little script that will rescale your science payouts to whatever you like. I like mine at about 1/50th their default value (It takes two very thorough 1-person orbital flights on the first tier to unlock the next tier)

In this zip you will find

2x science cfg file, 5x science config file, 10x, 50x, 100x

and a python script for writing new cfgs with any scale.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14567061/science_rescale.zip

Make sure you rename the science config you want to use to the default name: ScienceDefs.cfg and place it in GameData/Squad/Resources

Usage: python scale_science_payout.py ScienceDefs.cfg <scale> [NewScienceDefs.cfg]

scale is a floating point number to be multiplied by all science payouts

for example, a scale of 0.5 will make all science experiments worth half as much

if the third argument is ommitted, it will write over ScienceDefs.cfg with the new file

EDIT: it seems the science payout of a vessel recovery cannot be reduced.

Edited October 17, 2013 by nhnifong

[BGog42]

Had to hop in here as I just got 598 science for a 3 man mission to Minmus and I intentionally didn't try to minmax it. One interesting way to mix it up for experience players is to allow a career mode where the parts given per tech node are randomized ( except the starter set of course). While not ideal it would give some replay value to career mode as each time through you'd have be creative in different ways.

Might also be interesting to set it up such that specific techs require the science cost but also a specific observation. For example, solar panels require a trip withing 1mil meters of Kerbol or landing legs require a surface sample of minmus etc etc. Hmmm, perhaps I should work on this as a mod.

[allmhuran]

As per Scott Manley's interview with Felipe, this is a misunderstanding of the *intention* of the tech tree right now.

In Felipe's words:

" the purpose is to just give players a system that introduces the game gradually to them so that they're not completely lost by this insurmountable wall of content that you get on a first time playthrough"

http://youtu.be/CupGRIL2h64?t=7m15s

The 0.22 tech tree is an introduction / tutorial for new players.

This is *not* the career mode you (we) are looking for, with end goals, objectives and reasons for launching missions beyond what sandbox provides.

We can of course speculate on whether *that* kind of thing will be incorporated into the tech tree, or be addressed by a different feature entirely. But the important point is this: The tech tree in 0.22 is not designed to be the first stage of what most people think of as features of "career mode".

If it was intended to fill that role, then I think we would clearly have a pretty well founded criticism with the implementation. But it's not, it's a way of helping ease new players into the game. And given its intention as a tutorial, I think the implementation is OK.

Similarly, this does not mean that getting all the way through the tree in just a few short missions represents any kind of "exploit". This is a misguided notion that assumes that the tech tree *is*, in fact, intended as content for experienced players. Felipe makes it clear in that interview that he fully expects veterans to blow through it very quickly.

Edited October 17, 2013 by allmhuran

[nhnifong]

C'mon nearly every game that's been made has a difficulty setting. It's just a standard issue feature.

[allmhuran]

Sure, experienced players in *any* game can, if they so choose, go and play through the "how to play the game" introductory missions / stages. The tech tree in KSP *right now in 0.22* is exactly this: KSP's version of "introductory missions". You know, the ones that in, say, a first person shooter, tell you how to crouch, how to run, how to shoot. But there's not much point adding something that tries to make the introductory missions hard for experienced players. Experienced FPS players simply fly through the introductory stages because they already know what to do. I can't think of any games that add a difficulty level that makes the "how to crouch" stage difficult for experienced players.

[shand]

C'mon nearly every game that's been made has a difficulty setting. It's just a standard issue feature.

And nearly every game is finished... i suspect difficulty levels to be the absolute last "feature" to come in, simply because they can be set up as a "scale this factor, and this factor, and this factor" and they really arent important at this stage of development.

It could be argued that at this stage of development going through the tech tree quickly benifits squad in that it gets a thorough testing!

Also: this is PART of career mode. the tech tree part... Imagine you were playing early parts of civ, they havent introduced the AI yet, so you can make your cities and do the tech tree... that is where we are at with KSP at the moment. SQUAD has already strongly suggested what they'd like to do regarding missions and "achievements" unlocking them. (get to orbit? great now you get offered missions to put satellites up!)

[allmhuran]

As an addendum to my previous post, I think what I'm trying to convey is perhaps best illustrated by way of a comparative example.

Based on what Felipe was saying, the 0.22 tech tree is exactly the same as what we see in this video, from about 4:40 (the first few minutes of Crysis):

http://youtu.be/O-aKccXhV_Q?t=4m42s

Notice how it pops up text hints on how to do things. It forces the player to crouch if they want to progress, and tells them how. It forces them to pick up an object if they want to progress, and tells them how. It gives them an enemy who isn't even looking at them so they can get the feel of how to aim and shoot.

It's a tutorial that's incorporated into the game. There's no attempt to make it difficult for experienced players, because that would defeat the purpose. Experienced players simply get it over with and move on to the "real" content.

The tech tree does the same thing. It forces new players to know the basics (ensures that they do, if you prefer that phrasing), by locking the advanced stuff away behind science points.

We simply do not have the "real" career mode content in KSP - YET.

Edited October 17, 2013 by allmhuran

[Monger]

Maybe I am doing something wrong, but even though I am a moderately experienced player (playing KSP since 0.08, although not regularly), I am not progressing that fast. In the first three tiers, I unlocked two technology in each flight - mainly because electricity is quite limited without batteries, and the amount of data you can store before transmitting it is limited as well (or isn't it?). Also, visiting all biomes without air plane parts usually needs a few missions, and this is where the most science points can be found. So, although flying around Kerbin isn't really a complex task to do, it still should keep new players busy for a while.

I think, especially for the first version, it is really well done. It is a sophisticated tutorial, and working with very limited parts is an interesting experience.

[BGog42]

Newsflash: Exploiting game flaws leads to easy game, film at 11.

If everything's too easy for you (and, let's be honest here, if you wiggle your rockets through every loophole there is, it is easy), there's nothing keeping you from imposing your own rules, like I did.

1. No science gathering from below 50km altitude of Kerbin. That logically includes collecting no soil samples (be reasonable, what are we supposedly learning from that?)

2. No "repeat" experiments (you're not really learning a lot of new things from opening that goo box at 70km altitude a billion times, are you?). You may of course do experiments again if you think the altitude changed enough that something new might happen, but if you get a result you already had, dump it.

3. No suicide missions. Actually, all missions have to be done in a fashion that pretty much ensures your kerbonauts come back, that means safety fuel reserves and no hazardous reentry curves.

4. No space EVA on single person crafts. You just don't do that, mmmkay?

5. Most important, play it like you would do in a REAL space program. No insane "straight up, what goes up must come down" flights. Try for a nice suborbital, make it an orbital, let Jeb circle for a few rounds... you get the idea.

And yes, even with those rules it still ain't that hard. You have to be a wee bit more creative to come up with space flights that give you points.

I like your list and I'm doing much the same thing. But really #1? Doing a little science on Kerbin is no way to blow through the tree. Kerbin science give very low points already. That soil sample is worth, what, 10? compared to the 150+ for minmus.

[nhnifong]

I consider a "thorough" first flight to be something like this:

Launch to orbit and do a crew report at two or three stages of the launch. Transmit each one because as you are burning your engine, you will regenerate power.

In orbit, do an EVA report above all the different types of terrain you pass over. Get back in the pod to store them, the pod can store one of each type.

Land somewhere interesting, like a desert. Take a soil sample and an EVA report.

At the stock values, that should be something like 120.

I think it's totally fun to do it like this, you just need to lower the science payout values with that script I posted and it all good

[Moonfrog]

This is my thoughts on career mode. I think the concept of how u get science and stuff is good and shouldn't be changed.

I don't think its too easy. I think many have already pointed out that some players are more experienced and know how to get to farther places with far less stock equipment therefore really just jumping the gun. I think difficulty just needs tweaking a little.

I have one easy suggestion that would make it useful for beginner players and experienced etc. I think they already have this planned anyway. Structured missions or goals for you to do. If u received a request to earn money to fly a ship in orbit and collect samples, it would set a pace for the player to advance by.

I am happy with the career mode and don't see anything wrong with it, though I don't know what the devs are thinking, I think they do alright.

[DevoidLight]

I'll refrain from commenting on the difficulty of the system until we see how money factors into it. For all we know the excellent vessels the experienced players have breezed through the tree with may be to expensive to build at that point in the game.

[Psykikk]

i think the overall balance is there, maybe not so much for the pro player. but for me its a learnign experience all over again.

I did take the constant adjustments mechjeb did when launching a rocket for granted too much. perfct low or high kerbal orbit

was a joke, now I am soo happy when I get into any kind of orbit at all....normally I would say its frustrating but the chance to get those next parts and maybe then being ble to perform better does the trick to motivate me just right.

also, i am back to trying to accomplish stuff with smaller rockets abnd setups, instead of just cranking more mainsails in there....

[Alguien]

In Felipe's words:

" the purpose is to just give players a system that introduces the game gradually to them so that they're not completely lost by this insurmountable wall of content that you get on a first time playthrough"

http://youtu.be/CupGRIL2h64?t=7m15s

The 0.22 tech tree is an introduction / tutorial for new players.

I going to point out than ironically, the career mode doesn't explain anything, and even some veteran players are confused about what can they do to get science points, so now new players are as completely lost as before, just instead of a wall of parts now is a wall of gamemechanics

[Monger]

I going to point out than ironically, the career mode doesn't explain anything, and even some veteran players are confused about what can they do to get science points, so now new players are as completely lost as before, just instead of a wall of parts now is a wall of gamemechanics

True, but at least the scope where you have to look is significantly narrowed. You only need to look at a handful of parts to discover how experiments and collecting samples work. Browsing through the whole catalog of parts to discover what each of them is meant to do would be much more tedious. And obviously, every new part that is unlocked is a hint at what to do next.

[Exposure]

I going to point out than ironically, the career mode doesn't explain anything, and even some veteran players are confused about what can they do to get science points, so now new players are as completely lost as before, just instead of a wall of parts now is a wall of gamemechanics

Yeah this is my biggest issue with career mode so far. Honestly if I was told this was what I was supposed to play in order to get an easier grip on how to play KSP back when I was still trying to figure out what to do...I probably would have mentally filed it under "about as fun as Orbiter" and never touched it again. :/

[allmhuran]

I going to point out than ironically, the career mode doesn't explain anything, and even some veteran players are confused about what can they do to get science points, so now new players are as completely lost as before, just instead of a wall of parts now is a wall of gamemechanics

Yeah, that's true. I've been playing with it and I know what I need to do but that's because I've been watching the videos, reading the forums etc. I imagine new players won't even know that they *can* right click on a command pod to get a crew report. I had a quick look at the first tutorial and there was nothing immediate to explain that. Perhaps it's in another one, but I didn't go past the first.

I think that it might be useful to provide the player with popups on the first launch of a ship in any new save game, with an option to "skip popups". Have little balloons show up while the rocket is still on the pad saying "right click here for a crew report", "click here for EVA", etc, before giving control back to the player. But that's for a future update and kinda off topic on this thread.

[DrGonzo]

I'm honestly having trouble with science. Even as an experienced player. I disabled all my mods when update .22 came out because I really wanted to give career mode a legit run. Do I have to get my craft back to earn science? Every time I go to transmit data it says "not enough battery" and I'm only able to send like 5% back. What am I doing wrong here?

[Ringkeeper]

i´m new to the game, started with 0.21 . In 0.21 i managed to build up a space station and started with a moon station.

But now with 0.22 and the reasearch, i dont even manage to go to moon and back with the first 2 tiers staring parts.

So how the hell do you get to Duna with the starting parts and back? Or do you just leave your kerbal out in space ? Asparagus not possible due to missing pipes and only with decoupler you dont get a rocket build that has enough trust.

[lajoswinkler]

Yeah this is my biggest issue with career mode so far. Honestly if I was told this was what I was supposed to play in order to get an easier grip on how to play KSP back when I was still trying to figure out what to do...I probably would have mentally filed it under "about as fun as Orbiter" and never touched it again. :/

Pretty much my thoughts on the whole problem. The game needs more tips, just like in the tutorials.

I'm honestly having trouble with science. Even as an experienced player. I disabled all my mods when update .22 came out because I really wanted to give career mode a legit run. Do I have to get my craft back to earn science? Every time I go to transmit data it says "not enough battery" and I'm only able to send like 5% back. What am I doing wrong here?

I just keep opening the goo container and transmitting tiny bits of info while my motors are running. Too bad that small engine won't deliver any power, so I have to use the large ones.