I think career mode should be reworked substantially - here is my idea

[Brickyard]

I was interested right up until you said that breaking the "rules" meant that you get nothing and the mission auto aborts. That is not fun. It's games like that which make people ragequit. KSP is about exploring potential and trying to do the most and go the farthest. Putting arbitrary rules on things is really bad.

[Kasuha]

Right now we have an incomplete tech tree. Using our current information on the tech tree we can see that science only gives you the break throughs such as enhanced control, and advanced landing equipment. Money will be the thing that gives you individual parts.

That does not solve the problem that you need these parts to get to distant planet and once you have these parts you have no reason to do any more science there. The tech tree presents you the goal: uncover all parts. But the goal should be: research all planets!

[boomerdog2000]

The tech tree does not present you the goal, the missions we will have in game will. You may be the first one to decide "my space program is going to Duna," but then after people know it is possible they will be asking you to go do things there.

[Superfluous J]

I don't think the way to "fix" career mode is to add limits to what the player can do in some weird authoritarian way. That seems to go against the way this game runs which is "do whatever you can think of, explore!"

I think the way to "fix" career mode is, for us, to wait and see exactly what it is. Right now we have about 10% of career mode. I agree with others in this thread that a lot of the problems you're seeing will be fixed when you have to pay for the parts you use.

Hopefully at that point the game will allow parachutes to function on parts that are running on rails so I'll get all my boosters back instead of them popping out of existence.

[dlrk]

In all honesty, personally, I wouldn't be so irritated with career mode if they just made two simple changes:

1. Added a two Kerbal pod and a small lander can early on(so you don't have to do your first Munar landing in that ridiculous "Corolla" lander).

2. Allowed experiments to be moved from pod to pod.

[Lexar]

That does not solve the problem that you need these parts to get to distant planet and once you have these parts you have no reason to do any more science there. The tech tree presents you the goal: uncover all parts. But the goal should be: research all planets!

I think you are missing the whole point. Right now the goal is to test the science, modules, tech tree, and work out bugs in the game. Once career mode is complete the goal is to build a successful space exploration program working around a budget. The parts are only part of that goal.

The things you are proposing would be like telling NASA "You guys haven't landed on Mars yet, you aren't suppose to send satellites out past Mars." Really?

Edited October 20, 2013 by Lexar

[Sirrobert]

I think you are missing the whole point. Right now the goal is to test the science, modules, tech tree, and work out bugs in the game. Once career mode is complete the goal is to build a successful space exploration program working around a budget. The parts are only part of that goal.

The things you are proposing would be like telling NASA "You guys haven't landed on Mars yet, you aren't suppose to send satellites out past Mars." Really?

Don't forget that we are also going to get fuel mining in vanilla eventually. That's going to be a huge point of the economy, cause I'm pritty sure it'll come with fuel costing money

[Kasuha]

The things you are proposing would be like telling NASA "You guys haven't landed on Mars yet, you aren't suppose to send satellites out past Mars." Really?

No, it's more of "we don't know what Martian atmosphere is made of yet so we should not try to land there until we found out" approach.

In reality NASA also sent Mariner probes first to do flybys, and only then came Vikings and landed. Does that really seem illogical?

[ThesaurusRex]

Here's how I see the whole 'science' thing.

It isn't a direct data-to-technology thing. Instead, scientific information brought back to the KSC is reviewed, and the Kerbal government in turn gives the program grant money for researching new parts.

Still think it's kinda silly how you get aircraft parts before landing gear, but again this is only a prototype it seems.

There shouldn't be any barriers or anything stupid like that. Instead, a change to the tech tree would accomplish this. If someone wants to go all-out and get to the Mun prematurely, they can.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ThesaurusRex

[boomerdog2000]

No, it's more of "we don't know what Martian atmosphere is made of yet so we should not try to land there until we found out" approach.

In reality NASA also sent Mariner probes first to do flybys, and only then came Vikings and landed. Does that really seem illogical?

Right but we're not NASA. My first interplanetary mission was a Duna landing and return. I (technically) knew absolutely nothing about the planet but I told my kerbonaughts that we were going there anyway. We shouldn't restrict the person from going out and exploring, that's one of the main points of the game.

[Kasuha]

Right but we're not NASA. My first interplanetary mission was a Duna landing and return. I (technically) knew absolutely nothing about the planet but I told my kerbonaughts that we were going there anyway. We shouldn't restrict the person from going out and exploring, that's one of the main points of the game.

If we're not NASA then anything can apply. To have a successful campaign in the game you need to keep it somewhat on rails and lead it to the end.

I find it funny how everybody comes with complaints against my idea but nobody comes with alternative solutions to problems it is trying to solve. Maybe you just don't see the problem? I do. I basically stopped playing KSP after I finished the tech tree because I don't see any further challenges.

[Nemoricus]

Seeing how far you can go without unlocking nodes is an interesting challenge, I've found.

Getting on topic, putting in hard, artificial restrictions is not a good idea. It restricts the freedom that KSP offers players. Now, this doesn't mean that *guidance* would be a bad thing. In fact, a system that says things like "You know what would be cool? An LKO Station!" would provide paths for new players to follow. However, it's only a suggestion, and if they want to send a probe to Duna instead and have the budget for it, nothing stops them.

Mission requests, suggestions from interested citizens, requests from notable scientists, all of these could be used to provide things for new players to attempt. But it's up to the player to decide whether they want to take these or not.

[BostLabs]

No, it's more of "we don't know what Martian atmosphere is made of yet so we should not try to land there until we found out" approach.

In reality NASA also sent Mariner probes first to do flybys, and only then came Vikings and landed. Does that really seem illogical?

Since when have Kerbals been logical?

My 'Probes' are Kerbals! I try to take good care of my Kerbals and send rescue missions when I get them in trouble.

If I had a Staypuntik that got into trouble I wouldn't care a whit for it. Just make another one.

I just pulled Jeb off the Mun with Bill and Bob. I created a 3 capsule rocket and fought it to the Mun, with the limited tech I had, landing it close by (a huge feat for me as I wasn't using MechJeb), Managed to keep it upright and then discovered that I had set the lander down on the side of a huge crater (now called Thunderbird Crater) and then got Jeb to trek over the Mun for almost 5 km's, wedged him in between the capsules because he couldn't grab the hatch for some reason, took off with him in that tight space, got into a sketchy orbit and managed to get Jeb to grab the handle and get in the capsule, then bring them home.

For a probe, I would have terminated the flight and not bat an eye. My Kerbals are important to me and I haven't killed one in Career yet.

That is my space program. I push the limits but not to the deaths of my little green guys. And during all of this I have fantastic adventures and learn a few things.

Edited October 20, 2013 by BostLabs

[Sirrobert]

If we're not NASA then anything can apply. To have a successful campaign in the game you need to keep it somewhat on rails and lead it to the end.

I find it funny how everybody comes with complaints against my idea but nobody comes with alternative solutions to problems it is trying to solve. Maybe you just don't see the problem? I do. I basically stopped playing KSP after I finished the tech tree because I don't see any further challenges.

After you finish the techtree, you have turned the Carreer mode back into Sandbox, atleast until Squad comes out with the next update, or you start a fresh carreer.

Here's why noone sees your 'problem': We have all been happely playing sandbox for ages already. All the Carreer mode gives is an EXTRA mode. It doesn't replace what we were already playing, it ADDS something.

If you have a problem with that, than I guess you weren't playing before .22 either. So in that case: Welcome to Kerbal Space Program. Just like Minecraft, it doesn't give you a goal, you give YOURSELF a goal. If you can't do that, than I guess you don't belong here.

You want a challange? Here's some inspiration:

[boomerdog2000]

Just like Minecraft, it doesn't give you a goal, you give YOURSELF a goal.

Exactly career mode is not a campaign, it's more like simcity. They give us the tools and we challenge ourselves to build something really cool with the restrictions applied. There is no end to space exploration you just keep going farther.

[Mr. Scruffy]

I[...]You are not allowed [...]

and right there you lost me.

[HaDeZs]

.......

Here's why noone sees your 'problem': We have all been happely playing sandbox for ages already. All the Carreer mode gives is an EXTRA mode. It doesn't replace what we were already playing, it ADDS something.

.......... Just like Minecraft, it doesn't give you a goal, you give YOURSELF a goal. If you can't do that, than I guess you don't belong here. ......

I don't think because you can't give yourself goals that you don't belong here but I get your point. I'm not one of those that enjoys giving myself goals for a pat on my own back, there should be a reason aside from exploring new things.

First off, I think the .22 update is a step in the right direction and yes it does add something good while not changing the basics really. After you gather your initial science for all the unlocks, your essentially playing sandbox while still being able to collect more science. While people can say "oh science is too easy, I maxed the tree in 3 flights" there are still plenty of people that found this a better learning experience and more of a reason to play kerbal as did I. I thought the sandbox mode as a new player was extremely daunting with all the parts. If your not playing from the early releases its hard to jump in and stay in it. I'm one of those people that can log into minecraft and won't build or do much and stops playing in a few days. I find it boring giving myself challenges after a while because there is no end reason for them aside from knowing I can do it. I know I can build or do them before I try, the issue is really how much of a timesink they will be and if that will keep me interested. I know other people like the open sandbox but I do much better on multiplayer minecraft server with different plugins that give me different open ended goals. If I want to PVP i'm able to, or go build a house in a town, or farm mobs for drops to build things. And each of those has a purpose. There is now a reason other than creating something that I can focus my attention on. It gives me a bunch of little things to do that I can interchange between to keep myself interested in the game.

Take kerbal sandbox mode for example. First off, your given the plethora of parts which in itself is hard to swallow without watching hours of video's or playing with all the parts for a few hours. Then you start flying to things and give yourself goals, like lets fly to each planet and land or lets make a satellite or a space station. Once you complete those there isn't another reason to do them again unless you enjoyed that experience. Granted its amazing that you can do anything you want but there is no underlying open ended REASON to do anything. There is no purpose or reason to do anything in kerbal, same as minecraft. But the majority of people are playing plugin heavy minecraft servers and after you flew to 1-2 planets in kerbal your downloading different mods and jumping into challenges to post and share online.

Now with the early implementation of the tree and science points, I'm able to choose how I want to achieve those science points for my next unlock and if I want to see if I can fly to Duna on tier 1 parts I can without limitation. In the end its giving people different new goals and a reward system for playing the game openly the way you want to. Thats the key that people are missing. You can't put the tech tree and science point gains on a linear progression past what the tree already limits you to. I'm sure noone here wants to be forced to fly around kerbal and do a bunch of storyline goals to be able to fly to the mun or beyond. This would kill the game. I like the open goal approach that the career mode still allows and i'm sure eveyrone will agree.

Ideally, I would have loved a merchant system or a research area where I can use my science points to unlock the parts that I would like instead of having them grouped and there are ways of establishing a "tier" system for the parts in both those which still doubles as a "tutorial". Either way, its just a different way to skin a banana and this game has plenty of different banana's to skin in different ways. But this tree doubles as a tutorial for new players to learn and better understand which is in itself much greater than anyone here understands. This game needs new players coming in, new interest and this helps Squad with that as well.

Also, how open ended is modding in this game. Most of the stuff I see is just additions without any major gameplay changes. One of the great things about minecraft and a few other games is the fact that people were able to modify the base gameplay and create their own versions of the game. Since then minecraft has just been adding those mods to their new releases.

I'm sure Squad will take all this feedback on the tutorial and build out career mode to be as great as the sandbox already is. There are plenty of smart people here giving their input and suggestions on what they would like and Squad will be able to skin out an open ended End-game for everyone eventually.

[Kasuha]

Exactly career mode is not a campaign, it's more like simcity. They give us the tools and we challenge ourselves to build something really cool with the restrictions applied. There is no end to space exploration you just keep going farther.

Career mode in games gives you a goal. You start as a rookie and end as an ace. You start as a village mayor and end as a president. Etc etc.

Here you start with a few parts and end with all parts. Something does not feel right about it.

[Sirrobert]

First off, I think the .22 update is a step in the right direction and yes it does add something good while not changing the basics really. After you gather your initial science for all the unlocks, your essentially playing sandbox while still being able to collect more science. While people can say "oh science is too easy, I maxed the tree in 3 flights" there are still plenty of people that found this a better learning experience and more of a reason to play kerbal as did I. I thought the sandbox mode as a new player was extremely daunting with all the parts. If your not playing from the early releases its hard to jump in and stay in it. I'm one of those people that can log into minecraft and won't build or do much and stops playing in a few days. I find it boring giving myself challenges after a while because there is no end reason for them aside from knowing I can do it. I know I can build or do them before I try, the issue is really how much of a timesink they will be and if that will keep me interested. I know other people like the open sandbox but I do much better on multiplayer minecraft server with different plugins that give me different open ended goals. If I want to PVP i'm able to, or go build a house in a town, or farm mobs for drops to build things. And each of those has a purpose. There is now a reason other than creating something that I can focus my attention on. It gives me a bunch of little things to do that I can interchange between to keep myself interested in the game.

Exactly. And the fun part is, there is NOONE that sais "it's to easy, I finished the tree in 3 flights".

The only complaint around here is "It's to easy, cause I saw this extremely pro player finish it in 3 flights" Scott Manley can stack up 15 solid boosters and get to Minmus. Does that mean it's to easy to get to Minmus? Cause I wouldn't even be able to get off the launchpad with that monstrousity he used. So all it means is that he is awesome at KSP.

Also, how open ended is modding in this game. Most of the stuff I see is just additions without any major gameplay changes. One of the great things about minecraft and a few other games is the fact that people were able to modify the base gameplay and create their own versions of the game. Since then minecraft has just been adding those mods to their new releases.

I'm sure Squad will take all this feedback on the tutorial and build out career mode to be as great as the sandbox already is. There are plenty of smart people here giving their input and suggestions on what they would like and Squad will be able to skin out an open ended End-game for everyone eventually.

Think of a mod and there is probable a version like it. The nature of the game doesn't allow real missions and things yet though, as there is nothing to reward. But there are still a few mods that add missions, and money to reward from those missions, and something to do with that money. I haven't looked into it much, but I think he gave parts a cost.

There is also kethane, which allows you to mine for fuel. Should tie in nicely with fuel costing money

Also remember that this is still an alpha game. We are still to get a vanilla economy, and I believe there are plans for vanilla fuel mining to

Career mode in games gives you a goal. You start as a rookie and end as an ace. You start as a village mayor and end as a president. Etc etc.

Here you start with a few parts and end with all parts. Something does not feel right about it.

What part about IN DEVELOPMENT do you not understand? The Techtree is the first step towards the Career mode, it is NOT the entire career mode

[Joe Shmoe]

The science currency model does seem to be a bit grindy. But I can't say I any better ideas of how to do it.

[boomerdog2000]

Career mode in games gives you a goal. You start as a rookie and end as an ace. You start as a village mayor and end as a president. Etc etc.

Here you start with a few parts and end with all parts. Something does not feel right about it.

You start as a fledgling space program with little to no presence in space and end as an interplanetary program with (probably) stations and bases on multiple planets.

[Specialist290]

I find it funny how everybody comes with complaints against my idea but nobody comes with alternative solutions to problems it is trying to solve.

Repeating this for your benefit:

The best way to limit the players' options to prevent people from getting to the Mun and back with Tier 0 tech isn't to put up an arbitrary wall; it's to limit the resources they have available at the start so that it's impossible to buy all the parts you'd need to do that, which isn't properly going to happen until we get an economic system to go along with the scientific one, especially if part of that economy involves performing specific goals as part of a contract.

If there's going to be any sort of "punishing the player" going on, it should be for not doing what they've agreed to do, not for "not being ready" for something they've clearly demonstrated they are perfectly ready for.

[Joe Shmoe]

I kinda wish they gave you unmanned stuff first. Considering that's how it worked for early space travel. Then they sent the test monkeys! (or in our case Kerbals)

[Lexar]

Career mode in games gives you a goal. You start as a rookie and end as an ace. You start as a village mayor and end as a president. Etc etc.

Here you start with a few parts and end with all parts. Something does not feel right about it.

Each time you reply to someone who tells you career mode is unfinished you completely ignore what they say. I am starting to think you are either new to Alpha testing, or I smell a very clever troll.

We understand what you are saying. You bought the game, you played career mode, and you beat it. You now think you have nothing else to do. We get that. What you have to understand is the fact career mode is an un-finished product. Right now science is the only thing we have in the game to prevent people from moving on, and yes right now it is super easy to unlock the tech tree. This is because Squad has yet to implement a budget for your space program. Once they implement credits, and a way to get a budget to run your space program, only then will we find out how easy or hard career mode will be. I send satellites and probes to planets before I send a manned mission because I want it to be realistic. If you don't that is your loss. I prefer to not have those bulky science modules on my lander. This game has been and always will be what ever you want to make it. That's why it has been so sucsessful this far. People with creativity and imagination make this game fun for them, the developers just give them the tools inside the game to work with.

[Lexar]

I kinda wish they gave you unmanned stuff first. Considering that's how it worked for early space travel. Then they sent the test monkeys! (or in our case Kerbals)

I agree, but atm they want to make the tech tree easy to unlock for newer players. Without EVA and crew reports some of the new players would be without science. Personally I think they should start you out with a probe, a few of the smaller science mods like the thermometer, accelerometer, barometer, ect., the short range antana and a small battery First unlock would be the cheepo solar panel. That way you can take temp/pressure readings in the different levels of the atmosphere along with other readings as you launch.