[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[Starwaster]

27 minutes ago, MarlboroMan said:

So 7.0 is the default convection factor in the stock game?

The soyuz was an example, my space plane now re enters easily, I can crank the difficulty setting back up from 10% (10% was impossible with convection factor of 7.0)

Orbiting over home (large image)

I'll go check out the RO thread thanks.

One word on space planes: Deadly Reentry makes substantial changes to them to make them behave more like they are protected by shuttle tiles. RO doesn't touch them last time I checked so any problems you encounter with space planes should definitely come here.

[MarlboroMan]

Last re-entry i did earlier went great, things got hot but the only thing that exploded were the bottom two shuttle main engines. I have a procedural wings flap protecting them that needs tweaking I think. I'll fix that flap and have another go with the difficulty cranked back up and report back. Is there any info in particular you would like to see? Hard to read anything in the debug window atm as it's getting spammed by TAC.

 

Edit: Here's a couple of screenshots from the other night with convection factor set to 7.0 there may be some useful data there for ya.

Re-entry #1 Things starting to heat up

Re-entry #2 Many parts have exploded (fore rcs, nose cone, fore wings, bottom SSME's)

Edited July 25, 2016 by MarlboroMan

[Starwaster]

8 minutes ago, MarlboroMan said:

Last re-entry i did earlier went great, things got hot but the only thing that exploded were the bottom two shuttle main engines. I have a procedural wings flap protecting them that needs tweaking I think. I'll fix that flap and have another go with the difficulty cranked back up and report back. Is there any info in particular you would like to see? Hard to read anything in the debug window atm as it's getting spammed by TAC.

It's probably to be expected that the engines will burn up if they're exposed but YMMV. 

The log won't say a lot about things burning up, the MM cache file is more important because you can see every single part config in the game and other things like physics configs.

If you really want to check what kind of shielding it's getting, turn on thermal debugging. You can see how much convection actually gets through to the part you're trying to protect with the flap and DRE also responds  to turning on debugging by providing additional information of its own (total heat loading, peak heating and heat flux /cm² - if peak heat stops going up then you know you're over the worst part of reentry)

[MarlboroMan]

RO recently updated itself. I've only had one game since I updated but it appears it fixed my re-entry problems.

[Starwaster]

4 hours ago, MarlboroMan said:

RO recently updated itself. I've only had one game since I updated but it appears it fixed my re-entry problems.

Interesting. Must have been something changed in the physics section. Would you mind sending your latest ModuleManager.ConfigCache so I can see what changed?

[MarlboroMan]

Sure dude.

Bazinga

That is one very large txt file. Let me know if you find anything interesting, you already have a link to my MMcfg from the other day before i updated to compare it to.

It may not have been RO, at the same time RO was updated i updated CLS,Smokescreen,TACLS ROconfig and Vens part revamp. FYI they were updated thru ckan. I'm on a mission to install all my mods manually atm.

[Starwaster]

4 hours ago, MarlboroMan said:

Sure dude.

Bazinga

That is one very large txt file. Let me know if you find anything interesting, you already have a link to my MMcfg from the other day before i updated to compare it to.

It may not have been RO, at the same time RO was updated i updated CLS,Smokescreen,TACLS ROconfig and Vens part revamp. FYI they were updated thru ckan. I'm on a mission to install all my mods manually atm.

Found the cause of the original problem and it's the same damn cause as @yaume had a page or two back. The problem is that there were TWO PHYSICSGLOBALS nodes... but only one gets used and it would be the second one, which (like yaume's) has the stock values. That's two times now. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence and three times is there's a bug somewhere. (Apologies to Moonraker... or was it Goldfinger??)

Rather than waiting for an actual third incident I'm assuming there's an issue here to be found ... maybe with RO itself or one of the mods it installs. Maybe it was the cache file itself that was at fault. In the future I'll suggest deleting that and letting MM repatch and rebuild the cache.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Starwaster

[MarlboroMan]

I'm glad I could be useful.

Finished finding, downloading, understanding and installing all these mods manually. If I can be any more assistance giz a yell.

Getting right back into KSP after 3-4 years not playing much.

Flew my shuttle Elmo from pad to ISS orbit to ground again today using the new install. DREC works perfectly now, SSME's started getting hot during re-entry, temp gauges came up but no fireballs or explosions now. This makes me a happy panda. Touched down in southern Georgia, I'm still trying to nail that target at KSC.

[raxo2222]

@Starwaster I made small patch for Keep Fit mod, that disables DR G effects - this mod has its own.

Spoiler

//Overriding Deadly Reentry G effects on crew.
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[custom]:NEEDS[KeepFit]:AFTER[KeepFit]:Final
{
    @crewGKillChance = 0
    @crewGClamp = 0
    @crewGPower = 0
}

I'm not sure if I wrote it in good way - its meant to set three values in cusom DR config to 0.

 

Edit: It doesn't work, how to fix it?

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by raxo2222

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, raxo2222 said:

@Starwaster I made small patch for Keep Fit mod, that disables DR G effects - this mod has its own.

  Reveal hidden contents

//Overriding Deadly Reentry G effects on crew.
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[custom]:NEEDS[KeepFit]:AFTER[KeepFit]:Final
{
    @crewGKillChance = 0
    @crewGClamp = 0
    @crewGPower = 0
}

I'm not sure if I wrote it in good way - its meant to set three values in cusom DR config to 0.

 

Edit: It doesn't work, how to fix it?

 

A few things:

• Don't try to schedule it in two passes, pick ONE
• It's Default because that's the name of that REENTRY_EFFECTS node
• If Custom.cfg exists in your Deadly Reentry folder then this probably won't work unless the config file you put this in lives in a folder beginning with 'z'
• You're better off just using the in-game DRE menu and setting these fields there.

//Overriding Deadly Reentry G effects on crew.
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:NEEDS[KeepFit]:Final
{
    @crewGKillChance = 0
    @crewGClamp = 0
    @crewGPower = 0
}

 

[NathanKell]

@Starwaster I'll check if somehow RO's doing it, thanks.

[NathanKell]

'T'ain't me guv: RSS and RO both do @PHYSICSGLOBALS properly (as does DRE, of course).

[Starwaster]

3 hours ago, NathanKell said:

'T'ain't me guv: RSS and RO both do @PHYSICSGLOBALS properly (as does DRE, of course).

Yeah I saw that. One theory I'm toying with is that it's one of the third party recommended mods installing a copy of ModuleManager.ConfigCache with two PHYSICSGLOBAL nodes. It's not a really great theory because it would also (I think) have to involve a copy of its SHA file.

It would also have to involve a pristine copy of KSP  AND CKAN and it would have to be a very precise set of installed mods absolutely matching the list files in the SHA list installed by this increasingly hypothetical third part mod.. And the very first mod or altered file after that would force a reload by MM of all the configs and rebuilding of the cache.

It's the unlikeliest set of circumstances but I just don't see how else it could happen.

Edit: Or I guess it could be some obscure Module Manager bug that nobody's found yet...

Edited July 29, 2016 by Starwaster

[RobynNailo]

So I am having a weird issue. Trying a game in the Stock Kerbal system, playing with the SETI re-balance, and I was trying to reenter the 1 kerbal capsule. Ap at ~80, Pe at ~40. The capsule had a science bay with some stuff in it, and a heatshield under the bay, so I had unloaded the Ablator from the capsule for weight concerns. Even oriented correctly it started generating heat very quickly around 65-60k, and rapidly exploded lower even with me trying to put it into a roll or something to decrease heat.

I have spent the last couple of hours trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and have struck out, so I figured I would try posting here. Sorry if I forgot anything important >.<.

**EDIT**

Grabbed a pic with the thermal overlay on, and some thermal data showing. Looks like maybe the game isn't thinking the pod is behind the heatshield?

Edited August 3, 2016 by RobynNailo
Edit for pic

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, RobynNailo said:

So I am having a weird issue. Trying a game in the Stock Kerbal system, playing with the SETI re-balance, and I was trying to reenter the 1 kerbal capsule. Ap at ~80, Pe at ~40. The capsule had a science bay with some stuff in it, and a heatshield under the bay, so I had unloaded the Ablator from the capsule for weight concerns. Even oriented correctly it started generating heat very quickly around 65-60k, and rapidly exploded lower even with me trying to put it into a roll or something to decrease heat.

I have spent the last couple of hours trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and have struck out, so I figured I would try posting here. Sorry if I forgot anything important >.<.

**EDIT**

Grabbed a pic with the thermal overlay on, and some thermal data showing. Looks like maybe the game isn't thinking the pod is behind the heatshield?

A shield that small is probably not creating enough of an occlusion zone behind it to shield the capsule. It's not going to do a good job at shielding anything except what is directly attached to it. To shield the whole thing would require a larger diameter shield.

It *might* help if you can keep your angle of attack at exactly ZERO. Maybe.

[RobynNailo]

19 hours ago, Starwaster said:

A shield that small is probably not creating enough of an occlusion zone behind it to shield the capsule. It's not going to do a good job at shielding anything except what is directly attached to it. To shield the whole thing would require a larger diameter shield.

It *might* help if you can keep your angle of attack at exactly ZERO. Maybe.

Ok, if that is what is happening, It has been a while since I have played (maybe a version or two) and much longer since it was not RSS/RO/RP-0. I just have totally had pods in this configuration before and not had trouble. It also seemed like it was heating up a ton really high up, well before I was experiencing any substantial breaking force from the atmo. And no matter the AoA, it was never showing as not exposed, though pretty much everything else was showing as protected up till like a 90° AoA. It just seemed like it was heating up a ton way higher and way earlier than it should be, from a pretty tame entry angle (like old DRE obvs but I am pretty sure I have returned the three seater capsule without a heat shield on a more aggressive reentry angle from higher orbit.)

Does DRE/stock now actually model the occlusion zone properly so it tapers back in like that? Also, should it be heating up that high and that fast? (not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand ) It also if left to its own devices seemed to be heating up about as fast as the heat shield, which unless I am understanding improperly seems odd as it would be at least slightly less exposed even if the occlusion zone was not big enough

Also, if this is Working as Intended™ How is that modeled, and how should I be building/working with that in the future?

Thanks for the help, I spent a couple of hours doing searches trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, RobynNailo said:

Ok, if that is what is happening, It has been a while since I have played (maybe a version or two) and much longer since it was not RSS/RO/RP-0. I just have totally had pods in this configuration before and not had trouble. It also seemed like it was heating up a ton really high up, well before I was experiencing any substantial breaking force from the atmo. And no matter the AoA, it was never showing as not exposed, though pretty much everything else was showing as protected up till like a 90° AoA. It just seemed like it was heating up a ton way higher and way earlier than it should be, from a pretty tame entry angle (like old DRE obvs but I am pretty sure I have returned the three seater capsule without a heat shield on a more aggressive reentry angle from higher orbit.)

Does DRE/stock now actually model the occlusion zone properly so it tapers back in like that? Also, should it be heating up that high and that fast? (not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand ) It also if left to its own devices seemed to be heating up about as fast as the heat shield, which unless I am understanding improperly seems odd as it would be at least slightly less exposed even if the occlusion zone was not big enough

Also, if this is Working as Intended™ How is that modeled, and how should I be building/working with that in the future?

Thanks for the help, I spent a couple of hours doing searches trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

This isn't the first time that pods in pretty much that configuration have come up before and it's been problematic to put through reentry

If you want to know more about how objects occlude each other from convection heating you should ask @NathanKell because he wrote that code. All convection heating is handled by stock KSP these days. It decides when and how much something gets heated. The only thing DRE does now with regards to reentry heating is balance max temps either as explicitly decided on a part by part basis or by fallback code that makes sure that parts at least don't exceed a 'sane' max temp. (unless explicitly told not to for that part). And it makes things 'catch fire' if they get within 85% >= of their max temp.

I'm not even touching the physics globals this time around in DRE.

A few other things I'll address here to make sure there are no misconceptions:

• Drag is not directly linked to heating. Even IRL you would expect substantial heating high up in the atmosphere before they get low enough to experience significant drag.
• Although drag isn't directly to heating, an object with high drag has a high rate of deceleration and therefore will experience less heating because it's not travelling as fast for as long a period of time as a streamlined object
• And is also probably a blunt bodied object which means the superheated shockwave is 'detached' rather than being attached to the object if it were very streamlined.
• And the shockwave is kept further away from the object as its diameter is increased.
• IRL, the backshell of a reentry vehicle experiences significant heating and has to be protected. The conical (frustum) portion of the Apollo CM had the same type of heat shield as the bottom of the capsule only it didn't have to be as thick.
• That last means that you guys actually have it easy in KSP; all you have to do is slap a shield on the bottom of your capsule and it's good to go. IRL the entire thing has to be shielded

So, anyway, you want a larger heat shield if you want to be sure the entire thing is shielded there. 

That said, I did try a vehicle in the configuration you're having trouble with and with an angle of attack/sideslip of exactly 0^o I was able to keep the Mk1 pod from experiencing convection heating. There's practically no margin of error there. The more it deviates the more heating it's going to get. But it's not terribly stable aerodynamically speaking so it needs RCS or fins or spin stabilization to keep it steady or eventually in the lower atmosphere drag starts affecting it and it starts side slipping and then the heating will start.

 

[RobynNailo]

Thanks for the help I wasn't sure if it was a bug or not, and its been long enough since I have been in a stock system that I had no idea if I was just miss remembering what should be happening. Also, been using this mod for... some time now, back when all stock had was the pretty fireball with no actual effect, and just wanted to say it was pretty damn awesome. After using it for the first time I was slightly frustrated, then suddenly could not do without it; Not using it just felt like cheating.

Also sorry if I missed someone else asking somewhere, all I could find were people not understanding why they were burning up without a heat shield. I'll prob run a test with it just leaving the ablator in and see if that solves it, or just transfer science to the capsule and write off recovering that part till I have better options. I was just running close enough to max weight on that (very early career) that I needed every gram I could spare.

[raxo2222]

Here is firefly at 30 km and 5.5 mach.

Is reentry heating normal? I use newest version of RSS/DR/Real Heat mod.

http://imgur.com/a/xsGbU

I used ignore max temp cheat.

Edit: disabled internal heat generation, temperature suddenly fell by 300 degrees.

It seems like Nuclear Ramjet still is incompatible with Deadly Reentry @FreeThinker

Edited August 14, 2016 by raxo2222

[Starwaster]

5 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Here is firefly at 30 km and 5.5 mach.

Is reentry heating normal? I use newest version of RSS/DR/Real Heat mod.

You're travelling at Mach 5.5, faster than an SR71 Blackbird. Convection heating is normal. Even if you are 10km higher than the Blackbird. Fast enough to blow you up? I dunno. Maybe. I assume that's why you mentioned turning on the max temp cheat. What part fails first? And at what temperature? 

 

[raxo2222]

8 hours ago, Starwaster said:

You're travelling at Mach 5.5, faster than an SR71 Blackbird. Convection heating is normal. Even if you are 10km higher than the Blackbird. Fast enough to blow you up? I dunno. Maybe. I assume that's why you mentioned turning on the max temp cheat. What part fails first? And at what temperature? 

 

Well I would have test this without internal heat generation - most likely heat is coming from nuclear ramjet from Interstellar Extended too.

 

[raxo2222]

10 hours ago, Starwaster said:

You're travelling at Mach 5.5, faster than an SR71 Blackbird. Convection heating is normal. Even if you are 10km higher than the Blackbird. Fast enough to blow you up? I dunno. Maybe. I assume that's why you mentioned turning on the max temp cheat. What part fails first? And at what temperature? 

 

I disabled internal heat generator.

Now my hypersonic plane is fine at flying 6 mach @ 32 kilometers on Earth.

[Jimmy P]

Starwaster,

What should the G settings for DRE be for RO/RSS? I just had a reentry that was a total mistake and feel like my poor Kerbal should have died but somehow he survived and I didn't get a warning about reaching G limits like I had in the past. I don't know exactly how many Gs he pulled but it was significant, like going 9 km/s at 60 km.

[Starwaster]

6 hours ago, Jimmy P said:

Starwaster,

What should the G settings for DRE be for RO/RSS? I just had a reentry that was a total mistake and feel like my poor Kerbal should have died but somehow he survived and I didn't get a warning about reaching G limits like I had in the past. I don't know exactly how many Gs he pulled but it was significant, like going 9 km/s at 60 km.

RO has builtin overrides for DRE's gforce damage. It's sort of based off real life values for humans to the extent that I could apply them to KSP / DRE game mechanics.

The short of it is that humans can withstand horrendous g-forces for short periods of time. Doing 6 Gs for  few minutes poses no problems if you are trained to withstand it. (assume all human and Kerbal astronauts are). I arranged it so that you could withstand 6g for ~12 minutes and 10g for 1 min. (measured as the game measures time; remember that 1 minute of real time is often going to be less than 1 minute of game so go by MET display)

[raxo2222]

Why stock precoolers are so weak to heat? Max skin temp is only 1023 degrees Celsius or so.

Do I should move wings to bottom of spaceplane, so precoolers would be hidden by wings from hot plasma?