[1.3] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement v3.3.3 7/24/17

[DebatedNothing]

Haha, I didn't even realise you made this mod ferram, was a little bit surprised when I saw who replied. Anyway that's a damn shame.

Also I don't think the struts thing will work because last I check it kinda freezes up the hinge :/

[DebatedNothing]

Alternatively could there be a way to make a semi flexible/stretchy strut? Like on that wouldn't be completely rigid, but with a considerable force on the attached object, would change shape/length?

[Galane]

Alternatively could there be a way to make a semi flexible/stretchy strut? Like on that wouldn't be completely rigid, but with a considerable force on the attached object, would change shape/length?

You could make a .cfg to create an altered version of a rotatron or docking washer to increase its diameter and decrease its thickness to make a broader pivot for variable sweep wings like the F-14 and F-111.

[SirusKing]

Does the mod not reinforce docking clamps?

My ship http://i.imgur.com/DHESp4l.jpg?1?6024 , when turning or accelerating, wobbles like hell. This is likely because of the smaller center, but is this Fixable?

Edited March 21, 2014 by SirusKing

[ferram4]

This mod does reinforce docking clamps, but they will not be as rigid as other parts by intention. Docking ports are not as stiff as other parts, and you need to design your crafts accounting for the weak point.

[kiwiak]

So, today i finally tested KJR.

Doest in makes rocket indestructable?

I smashed my lander with 300 m/s into mun surface and it just bounced.

[NathanKell]

KJR doesn't touch impact tolerance, AFAIK.

[ferram4]

@kiwiak: The only way that should happen is if you came out of warp just before crashing, which would cause the rocket to still be indestructible after coming out of warp, or if you hit using landing gear / landing legs and nothing else hit the ground, since the gear / legs works pretty well as a force-insulator, even in the stock game.

[kiwiak]

@kiwiak: The only way that should happen is if you came out of warp just before crashing, which would cause the rocket to still be indestructible after coming out of warp, or if you hit using landing gear / landing legs and nothing else hit the ground, since the gear / legs works pretty well as a force-insulator, even in the stock game.

That was not the case. Lander bounced over surface for few minutes until it stopped and was perfectly ok.

Dont know if it means someting but it was fasa LEM.

[The Space Man]

So, today i finally tested KJR.

Doest in makes rocket indestructable?

I smashed my lander with 300 m/s into mun surface and it just bounced.

Same thing happened to my shuttle on duna. Maybe caused by quantum struts?

[jinks]

I found a curious cross-interaction with KSP Interstellar.

for the Alcubierre drive KSPI puts the ship on rails for a short instance to adjust it's speed without destroying it. (See here and here). Coming out of rails, KJR obviously stabilizes the physics load, but this causes all interactive features to disable and reinitialize (as in right-click menus and action groups).

This makes it impossible to do warp jumps shorter than about 5-7 seconds, which is quite a bit of distance even at 0.1c. Without KJR it's possible to do sub-second jumps which are actually sometimes important for intricate maneuvers.

Is there a way to skip the stabilizing in those cases? Maybe a special case for the warp drive and/or for when the ship was on rails for less than a second? I'd rather not do without KJR entirely (I've almost forgotten what struts look like ) but it's seriously getting in my way in these (luckily rare) instances.

Edit: Looking through the code, what would happen if I just disabled the KJRLoadLock alltogether? Will it make KJR malfunction in a serious manner or just increase the risk of explosions to "normal KSP level"?

Edited March 23, 2014 by jinks

[merendel]

That was not the case. Lander bounced over surface for few minutes until it stopped and was perfectly ok.

Dont know if it means someting but it was fasa LEM.

I had a similar incident when going for the KSPI impact experiment. I was useing extraplanetary launchpads to build stayputniks with a small toroidal tank and an LV1 to crash. Most vaporized with a very pleasing explosion but I had 2 that bounced after a full power dive into the ground at 400m/s. No timewarp as it was a prety much continuous burn from detachment from the mothership. One I actualy had to switch back to the tracking station and back to crash it as its second impact after the first bounce resulted in another bounce. exploded properly after the switch.

Personaly I didnt associate this with KJR in particular, I just asumed some weird mod interaction had croped up in general. Was browsing the thread for a different reason when I saw your post however.

[ferram4]

@kiwiak: Does it occur without KJR? It might just be a problem with the FASA parts. Can you reproduce it without mod parts at all and provide reproduction steps?

@jinks: Disabling the KJRLoadLock alone will allow you to do what you want, but will also allow you to fly an indestructible rocket for the short time when it's "easing" physics. In addition, disabling the easing entirely will probably cause Interstellar to destroy everything when parts come out of warp, which is what KJR's easing is intended to do.

@merendel: Can you reproduce the issue reliably? Without having reproduction steps all I know is there's a possible bug that may or may not be caused by KJR, which means that I can't fix it if it is.

[jinks]

@jinks: Disabling the KJRLoadLock alone will allow you to do what you want, but will also allow you to fly an indestructible rocket for the short time when it's "easing" physics.

I can live with that. I wasn't planning on doing much crashing anyways I was more concerned about how KJR handles going back on or off rails during a running physics-settling phase.

In addition, disabling the easing entirely will probably cause Interstellar to destroy everything when parts come out of warp, which is what KJR's easing is intended to do.

If I understand KSPI correctly, this is exactly what it prevents itself by doing all velocity changes while being on rails so it doesn't stress the parts. As far as the game is concerned it just unpacks a vessel with a constant velocity.

[merendel]

Sadly no I cant. As I said most of the time the crash happened normally with only 2 haveing the bounce. To be honest I think its more likely an edge case caused by EL locking in the near unbreakable settings on the newly spawned ship as it comes off rails.

The Shipyard and new ship goes on rails briefly as the new ship is loaded in and then physics restabilized. EL might have erroneously kept the settings on the new vessel in the state as it left rails and not allowed KJR to ramp them back to normal as it restabilized. These settings persisted until the craft was unloaded and reloaded at which point KJR set everything back to normal.

This also happened with the last version of EL and I've yet to have the opportunity to see if the same thing can happen under the new version since I upgraded. I need to run the impact experiment on the mun soonish anyway so I'll see if it shows up agian and if I can get a more reproducible result. If I dont respond back I'd say just assume its something weird a now outdated version of EL did and is not something you need to worry about.

[Genhellfire]

@Ferram4

Just watched a interview with Scott Manley, Felipe and Chad.

In it they mentioned that they fixed a joint problem revolving around physics torque maxing out at "7" what does that mean?

With this change they showed a stable 3.75m wide tall rocket which was rock solid, does this make your mod redundant or will your mod strengthen joints further still?

[ferram4]

I know what you're talking about, but it's not physics torque being clamped to "7" it's angular velocity.

Physics engines have an upper limit on angular velocity because fast-rotating rigid bodies can cause very weird things to happen; they can easily spin fast enough that they can clip through other bodies, the terrain, the player, etc. and when this is finally detected they tend to shoot objects off at ridiculous velocities. Obviously, these are all things to be avoided if possible. So at a certain point, when the object is spinning too fast you stop adding angular velocity to it. But the problem with this is that it violates conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, which can cause very... strange things to happen in-game; things that can be picked up on by players.

So instead, why not try something like clamping torques down to whatever would be necessary to keep the angular velocities below the limit? That would easily solve the conservation issues, but now all of your torques are limited by the inertia of your objects. An alternative is to take advantage of the iterative nature of the physics solver: it's not like it goes through the approximations to the equations once per frame, it does multiple iterations to increase accuracy, eventually converging to an answer; why not clamp angular velocities at the end of each iteration, to try and solve away the conservation issues? It really depends on what happens under the hood in PhysX (which I have no idea what's going on there specifically), but what was happening was that the physics engine was clamping the angular velocities to very, very low numbers, that in turn was causing torques applied to parts to be much lower than they should be (or) parts not responding properly to the torques applied to them, so wobble.

As an aside, I think the "7" is 7 rad/s, since I spun up a ship as fast as possible in game and it seemed to manage a little over 1 revolution a second, which is a little over 2pi rad/s, so about 7 rad/s seems right.

KJR will probably continue on in some form after the official release; it has some workarounds for bugs in the launch clamps, some physics easing abilities that make sending large rockets to the pad easier (even if it's harder to launch them) and the original functions may still be necessary for Real Solar System, where things are a lot more complicated.

[Endersmens]

The only problem i have with KJR is when im warping to a maneuver and i come out of warp and have no control for about 5 or so seconds while KJR is stabilizing physics. I don't see why that's necesary in warp, but maybe we could still have control during those few seconds? cause it sometimes messes up my maneuvers a little. I try to compensate but idk exactly how long i wont have control.

[ferram4]

You have 100 physics frames (~1.5 seconds) of no control while physics stabilizes; this is because the vehicle is completely indestructible during that time to prevent physics glitches when coming out of timewarp from causing large enough forces to destroy the vehicle. That physics easing was originally added due to bugs where people's crafts would explode coming out of warp, but now it also makes things easier when the ship first loads on the pad / ground. It's nowhere near as long as you think it is, and it's probably going to be reduced for the next update.

You don't get any control because letting the player have an invincible vehicle under their control is easily abuse-able.

[Traches]

The rotation speed limit shot down a fun idea of mine-- an autorotating re-entry vehicle. I used infernal robotics to adjust blade angles, gradually increasing spin as much as possible without stalling. Unfortunately with the rotation speed limit, I couldn't build wings big enough to work.

[TMS]

Just wanted to stop by and say 'thanks' for creating this mod. Been using it for about a month and really appreciate the sanity it brings to strut placement. Glad to see some of its principles being integrated into stock.

The delay on exiting warp is a minor distraction but a perfectly acceptable compromise for we behemoth builders.

[jinks]

The only problem i have with KJR is when im warping to a maneuver and i come out of warp and have no control for about 5 or so seconds while KJR is stabilizing physics.

I put a horribly mutilated (as in I just removed the lock) version of KJR over here.

It's of course your own responsibility with that to not abuse it.

@ferram4: Your lock may only be 1.5 seconds, but until KSP has actually repopulated all the menus and reenabled actiongroups it's really about 5-7 seconds until you can toggle the drive again. 5 seconds is a very long time at 20c

[Galane]

@ferram4: Your lock may only be 1.5 seconds, but until KSP has actually repopulated all the menus and reenabled actiongroups it's really about 5-7 seconds until you can toggle the drive again. 5 seconds is a very long time at 20c

It's a common SciFi trope that the crew and/or computers are discombobulated for a few seconds after dropping back to normal space/speed. Thus the navigator (organic or electronic) must plot the end of the jump a bit short so the ship hasn't zipped past the destination by the time things are back to normal-ish.

[mentat001]

Anybody ever have a craft become indestructible using this plugin? I de-orbited a probe-ship to crash into the desert and it bounced! It just bounced off the ground a couple times and came to rest perfectly intact. It was not a small ship either.

I also tested a splash down and it survived that as well. It just floated there. Ship was 40+ tons and hit the ground at over 100 m/s.

The only other plugin I was running is MechJeb 2.1.1.0-195. I used MechJeb landing guidance to tell it where to crash and disengaged it after the auto-warp cutout at the atmosphere. Then I just let it hit the ground and boing!

I removed KJR and things are back to normal.

[ferram4]

Can you actually reproduce the issue reliably? A few other people have reported that, but no one has been able to provide reproduction steps, so I'm not sure if it's KJR or something else. Even if it is KJR, without reproduction steps I can't track down what's going wrong.