Making Space Stations useful

[Ruinsage]

We really need parts that only work when joined to other parts, either directly or through tunnels that allow for crew transfer. Also, we need parts that boosts other parts, or adds functionally to them. Like a part that increases the radius that engines can move when using thrust vectoring control, or adds it if it doesn't have it.

Edit: We also need life support

[wasmic]

I think the stations should generate a steady trickle of science, but it would have 0 % transmission rate, so you'd have to send spacecrafts up to get the science back down. You could also just deorbit the station, of course.

[Seret]

if the the stations could be reinvigorated to generate science again for example

adding mun samples or rock samples to analyze form other missions

It sounds like that's exactly what the new science lab part due in 0.23 will do.

[i8jello]

Hey! Anyone thought of Interstellar Mod?

[Capt Snuggler]

what about rather than a steady trickle of science, instead you must deliver experiment packages and mission specialists to and from the station (amongst other things)? this would give purpose to space planes too...

[Majorjim!]

what about rather than a steady trickle of science, instead you must deliver experiment packages and mission specialists to and from the station (amongst other things)? this would give purpose to space planes too...

I like this idea Snuggler.

Kerbals that specialize in certain aspects of science. More experienced crews get more science.

[Capt Snuggler]

send the right Kerbals to conduct the right experiments = science multiplier

[Majorjim!]

send the right Kerbals to conduct the right experiments = science multiplier

This ^

MJ

[Kegereneku]

A suggestion :

In short :

- No new module, it use the space lab

- Use up a new resource (raw data?) that is carried in capsule or more in the hitchhikers module

How it would work :

- First you need the space lab

- Then with a capsule you transfer the new-resource.

- Last you "do science" and use up the new resource to generate science (limited like experiment)

How the game would balance it :

- It would act like experiment with biome and a science pool, so you can't produce infinite quantity of science.

- At first you can't launch hitchhikers modules so you wouldn't be able to produce a lot of science

- As ultimately all this "science resource" come from Kerbin, you would need regular launch.

basically its an experiment-module that require "resource" from Kerbun.

[AngelLestat]

As a solution, I propose science-per-kerbal-time

As in real life, the amount of science produced depends on the number and quality of scientists producing it, in addition to the environment you put them in. The game could make it so that there are scientists that you can hire, and each scientist can produce X science per hour in situation Y, up to a maximum of Z total science. The benefits of such a system are the following:

+ Gives purpose to stations and bases as places to put scientists to generate research.

+ Maximum science capacity per scientist means no unlimited science based on time-warp.

+ Maximum science capacity means scientists have to be rotated out --> incentive to undertake ferrying missions

+ Creates additional interaction between economy and science as you need to balance the number and quality of scientists you hire

what about rather than a steady trickle of science, instead you must deliver experiment packages and mission specialists to and from the station (amongst other things)? this would give purpose to space planes too...

I post some time ago the same thing about how to solve the science by time issue in a space station. (second reply)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61933-How-to-handle-the-over-time-problem-%28And-anyone-know-if-squad-is-looking-at-this-%29?p=853448&viewfull=1#post853448

Of course we can not get the credit, is just how things are in the real world. And if you ask me, there is where squad needs to look up if they wanna know how to implement without balance issues things like budget, contracts, economics or technology systems.

Becouse all the things in the real world had their pross and cons. So there is no way to get an unbalance system.

How the game would balance it :

- It would act like experiment with biome and a science pool, so you can't produce infinite quantity of science.

- At first you can't launch hitchhikers modules so you wouldn't be able to produce a lot of science

- As ultimately all this "science resource" come from Kerbin, you would need regular launch.

basically its an experiment-module that require "resource" from Kerbun.

Instrumentation is important, but you dont need to forget that the most important commodity in science is people.

Each scientist had a whole life studying, some of them may had a good idea that can become in an advance with the propper experimentation.

So science is made by people. That is why nasa send different scientist to prove their theories in diverse fields to the space station, and when they finish they send others.

And they are not pilots, their train like anstronats, but they are just scientist.

Edited January 25, 2014 by AngelLestat

[coolitic]

If it were per minute, then people would leave ksp on and do other things.

[Kegereneku]

Instrumentation is important, but you dont need to forget that the most important commodity in science is people.

[Citation needed]

You don't need to forget that... KSP is a simplified rocket-punk video-game that merely simulate the fun aspect/fantasy of space exploration regardless of what the real world go for.

Because we don't actually need scientist up there for much more than :

- testing pressurized space-can habitat for monkey

- overcoming our lack of dexterous robot for handy work (search for Robonaut 2)

Cutting remark aside, you could easily complement my suggestion above with "scientist kerbonaut" incapable of piloting but needed for research.

I actually simplified my proposition to make it's fundamental stand out.

[Capt Snuggler]

you could easily complement my suggestion above with "scientist kerbonaut" incapable of piloting but needed for research.

I actually simplified my proposition to make it's fundamental stand out.

Mission specialists!

[AngelLestat]

[Citation needed]

I am not sure what you mean by citation needed, but maybe this help.

In your suggestion you are completely forgeting the kerbonauts. Why you hire kerbonauts? Only if some of them die?

You need scientist, maybe 1 pilot or 2, but then all the people that goes to the space are scientist.

Instruments do not make science for their own. There are just instruments. Instruments are just tools that people use.

A robot cant do all the things that people do with the same skill. Maybe in 50 or 100 years from now it will.

So there is not need to explain this even more. If you would had right, in the space station would be only robots making science in remote way. But this is not true.

And from the gameplay point of view. The need to exchange kerbanauts and hire others to produce more sciencie is the best way to solve all the problems with science balance issues due to time warp. Also makes a good use of the hire panel.

Scientist that you hire may have a science value in case they prove their theories, some with more chance to failure, some with less science benefic, and with different cost depending the scientist.

We can assume that they carry their own instrumentation with them. But we would get more chance of success in the reasearch if you had the space station full equiped with the last instrumentation. (maybe with some modules requirements depending on the reasearch)

Mission specialists!

So you wanna be one of the lucky guys to go there? I guess I can find you a place in my next launch, I am testing a new shuttle, I hope you dont mind.

[Kegereneku]

While an interesting video, it doesn't change my point.

We don't really send scientist up there you know, more like extremely highly-trained operator so...

- They don't screw up in the unforgiving environment of space

- They can report problems better

- And to do maintenance work until we develop better robot (Robonaut 2).

Their profile tend to be scientists rather than the USAF pilot's of the 70th mostly because we automated piloting (See ATV), but as such, they are not the one "making the research" since everything is prepared entirely on Earth.

The correct therm is Mission Specialist (thanks for reminding it to me), a person trained to do the last few thing we couldn't make failsafe through automation.

A robot cant do all the things that people do with the same skill. Maybe in 50 or 100 years from now it will.

Actually they do over 9000 time more.

Why do you think we've only sent probes until now (aside from cost) ? That's because we don't need human in a bulky space suit to shovel dirt into the robot's sensor. I didn't even used the word "remote controlled drone" which would be more accurate (See "Robonaut 2").

And from the gameplay point of view. The need to exchange kerbanauts and hire others to produce more sciencie is the best way to solve all the problems with science balance issues due to time warp. Also makes a good use of the hire panel.

Not going to contradict you, that's the more or less the reason I suggested it the way I did (with hitchhiker's module). As said, I did not forget to squeeze in Kerbonaut exchange, I just simplified to its more important elements. It certainly won't "solve all the problem" though, you are being over-confident.

The rest is just me reminding you that reality is harsher than fiction. KSP depict his Kerbunaut as the pilot/astronaut of 1968, not the operator/scientist or today, neither the remote controlled bots of tomorrow (time-lag being the only reason we might still send their operator up there).

We can assume that they carry their own instrumentation with them

What do you think was my "new resource" in the little suggestion ? Tools and Experiment from Kerbin, my suggestion doesn't ask any new part and is self-balanced, which is great I ought to make it its own thread.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Kegereneku

[Navi1982]

After reading the views of all participants in this forum thread, I came up with the generalized idea of ​​motivation to build space stations. And since the game is being developed in the direction of research and science, space stations should find its niche in the game. However, the station can be built with different goals, but they can be combined.

1. The most common type of space station and quite realized - it is Refueling Space Station, which also does not leave himself without attention. As you know, from time to time it is also necessary to refuel.
   
2. Scientific Space Station, may be useful during investigations. As already suggested here, such a station should be built from a variety of modules, but not all at once! I propose the following scenario for Scientific Space Stations:
   
   • All of us have probably already noticed that scientific developments are grouped (by columns, if you watch the tree). What if, to limit the study of these categories as long as there is no certain area of science research opens the level of these developments? That is, before you start to develop any of the branches in this category (column), you will need to build and launch into space (zero gravity required) a special module and "unlock" inside it appropriate category. The game would look like this: developments in this column (of branches) will be displayed as gray icon (that exist only in theory) as long as there is no unlocked category by Kerbonauts in the right module (been confirmed or denied the facts and theoretical speculation).
     
   • Further, each of these modules will enhance percentages of the study, as it is now implemented with Mobile Processing Lab. Thus, motivating players to build these modules for efficiently telemetry of scientific data.
     

[*]Another type of stations - it Production Space Station, thus will be built "Engeneering Module". In the distant future, it may be produced spaceships, but given the current game mechanics, at the moment I see no point in implementing this.

• However, even now can be introduced "Engineering points" that will accumulate over time (perhaps even in the warp) in order to improve the performance of parts. Maybe at first it will be implemented in the likeness of "research points", but in the near future I do not see any obstacles to implement a system of "Engineering points" as described below.
  
• According to the scenario, in these modules in ultra-sterile and zero-gravity conditions, kerbonauts will produce parts for production equipment that improve the quality of parts made on Kerbine.
  
• Then, "Engineering points" accumulated in the module will be carried on Kerbin, in that same module or in a special "cargo" module. However, then the last module must be present at the station as a storage during production.
  
• And on Kerbine, in the research center will be a tab a la "Engeneering Enhacements", where in such a same tree, like scientific, will be improved the details by some sort of exponent.
  

[*]Still, it is possible to build a "Tourist Space Stations". But, have to wait implementation of the economic model in the game.

• The station will serve to supplement the budget.
  
• In this case it is necessary to carry passengers kerbyan, wait until they run tourist season, and then take him home.
  
• Tourist will not pay more than the provisions under the contract.
  

I think it should be clarified some of the details of all that I wrote.

P.S.: And... Sorry for my english. By origin I speak Russian. And used electronic translator. Hope you will understand me.

[AngelLestat]

While an interesting video, it doesn't change my point.

We don't really send scientist up there you know, more like extremely highly-trained operator so...

Not, we send scientist up there. Most of them are the leaders of their own projects and theories that they want to test.

- They don't screw up in the unforgiving environment of space

- They can report problems better

- And to do maintenance work until we develop better robot (Robonaut 2).

And a lot of extra reasons.

Their profile tend to be scientists rather than the USAF pilot's of the 70th mostly because we automated piloting (See ATV), but as such, they are not the one "making the research" since everything is prepared entirely on Earth.

This is already answered.

Actually they do over 9000 time more.

Why do you think we've only sent probes until now (aside from cost) ? That's because we don't need human in a bulky space suit to shovel dirt into the robot's sensor. I didn't even used the word "remote controlled drone" which would be more accurate (See "Robonaut 2").

Dont tell me that you are thinking in an automated assembly line where you said that robots make things better..

We are talking about reasearch here, there is no reapeat process that can be automated.

And any automation free of "hands" it needs tons of equipment.

Even if some day you get a perfect "robonaut" able to make the same operations that a human could with the same skill and precision commanded from earth. It will be never like be there in person.

Our vision angle is never compared to any virtual camera. In space you should be able to react to problems very fast. If some liquid or element escape from your hands, you need to act quick to avoid that element produce a problem in the space station.

And you always would have a comunication delay with the space station, this average delay can be more than 1 second. So even with the perfect robonaut this would be never practical.

The robonaut is made just to remplace astronauts in task that can be very dangerous. Also if some problem happen in the space station where all astronauts are unconscious or unable to respond, then you can use the robonauts for all the task that can not be control it from earth.

About send probes to other planets is a very different case.

Not going to contradict you, that's the more or less the reason I suggested it the way I did (with hitchhiker's module). As said, I did not forget to squeeze in Kerbonaut exchange, I just simplified to its more important elements. It certainly won't "solve all the problem" though, you are being over-confident.

The rest is just me reminding you that reality is harsher than fiction. KSP depict his Kerbunaut as the pilot/astronaut of 1968, not the operator/scientist or today, neither the remote controlled bots of tomorrow (time-lag being the only reason we might still send their operator up there).

But like we talk about, the most important element are the scientist. And you cant not have a simple operator up there just receiving instructions 24 hours of day from the actually scientist down in earth. Is silly.

And KSP does not represent any specific age or year. Is a space program, this can include 60th start to our actual day or future days.

And taken that this is the way that all agencies do it. I am not see why we need to change it when in fact, have a purpose to exchange or hire kerbals makes the game more fun.

What do you think was my "new resource" in the little suggestion ? Tools and Experiment from Kerbin, my suggestion doesn't ask any new part and is self-balanced, which is great I ought to make it its own thread.

I know that you was refering to that, but that is when I suggest my correction.

Scientist are the key element resource. Not instruments. But well, in your idea you can have the same 4 astronauts living there producing science until they die.

[Kegereneku]

I think you got my point, but you still exaggerated most of this, plus accidental misconception.

Misconception like :

- The Hollywoodian engineer/scientist being able to "work" anywhere, alone with any tools available.

- Robot being self-contained gizmo inherently inferior to human, rather than being part of the entire infrastructure allowing human to be remotely efficient, like life-support and security-system telling them when there's a problem and where.

- Astronaut somehow having supernatural capacity making them vital, regardless of the task.

Yes, there is scientist up there, working on their own little project. But they developed those on the ground with help and tools. In space they are merely operating them, not creating new theoretical model and testing it on the fly, that's both impossible and a misuse of their time (playing guitars isn't of course).

As I said earlier the experience done up there are most often related to studying if organism can live up there. Because for all those others experiences that MUST be kept aside from human, their fluid and all that's oxygen. You build a self-contained device that is likely to have more automation in them than human can deal with.

No, I'm not saying we won't continue to build pressurized-can for monkey to work/be studied up there, what I'm saying is that tools like robonauts are in the future likely to do the actual work, regardless of how much is left to the few astronaut and the thousand person at ground control.

You should know that human sight is quite ill-adapted to space. Barely capable of making out distance outside of their natural environment, distracted by anything, not capable of surviving direct sunlight, not capable of seeing infrared or invisible leak. Furthermore the human body is full of reflex that are downright dangerous in space.

Yes, we still rely on Astronaut to solve practical problem that require an hand-on approach, but that's because we couldn't build robot before.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/r2_first_work.html#.UubzJbRKEdU

I quote :

"It's not exactly a job that requires a rocket scientist – or astronaut – to accomplish, but there are a few things that make it difficult. For one, the gauge has to be held very steady – a challenge for a human being bobbing up and down in microgravity. And the samples can be misleading if there's another source of air flow in the area – such as a human being's breath."

Instrumentation is important, but you dont need to forget that the most important commodity in science is people.

All to say that this citation from you, is -in this context- wrong. On the ground yes, we need scientist. Up there ? Operator. HIGHLY EDUCATED Operator yes (because why would we send morons ?), but they are not doing theoretical work.

In any case, KSP is a video game using a rocketpunk approach where crewed mission must stay "the best".

Jebediah, Bill & Bob were clearly the Apollo's typical USAF people, the one who piloted the rocket until unmanned core appeared.

It's up to SQUAD to decide if they want "scientist", "Mission Specialist", both, none or why not a Kerobonaut (joking here).