[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[Agathorn]

Agathorn: are you using RftSEngines now? They should all have at least one ignition available. Makre sure you're using the absolute latest Engine Ignitor and that...oh. Right. Delete all cfg files in KSP/GameData/EngineIgnitor. Sorry, I *totally* forgot HoneyFox has been bundling configs with EI. Bet they've been conflicting. Super sorry!

I'll ask if either HoneyFox can remove them as automatic inclusion in the mod, or if I can just include a stripped down version in RO.

Thanks i'll give that a try. I am indeed using the RftS engines.

[SFJackBauer]

Just for the sake of completeness I'm posting the changelog of the RealEngines version that has been shipped with RealismOverhaul V3:

If you still have a folder named RealEngines inside GameData, delete it - the folder name has changed to SFJBRealEngines

- Adjusted AJ10-118K rescale

- Revised Russian engines TWR

- Fixed usage of Kerosene as fuel

- Revised gimbal ranges for all engines (careful when launching - use fine mode (Caps Lock))

- Added engines to proper TechLevel and TechTree nodes

- Fixed nodeSizes to properly support FAR

- Added minThust value so it shows on VAB tooltips

- Revised heatProduction values so the F1 does not explode two seconds after ignition

I'm still not happy with the heatProduction values, but they've been lowered just to remove the annoyance. As a consequence, some engines emissive visual effects may not appear, so its will be tweaked in the future.

[ferram4]

Hey, I just found some stuff in ModuleGimbal that might be useful for people dealing with the extra gimballing range of real engines. ModuleGimbal has a responseSpeed value and a useResponseSpeed that can be set for each engine, getting around the really over-the-top sudden jerking that happens when sudden control inputs happen. ModuleManager code follows:

@PART
[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleGimbal],!RESOURCE[SolidFuel]]
{
    @MODULE[ModuleGimbal]
    {
        %gimbalResponseSpeed = 15
        %useGimbalResponseSpeed = true
    }
}

This will update any part with a ModuleGimbal to have a decent response speed, with the exception of SRBs, since doing that apparently breaks saved StretchySRBs. I'm not sure what units responseSpeed is in, but I think it's degrees per second; 10 is about the lowest you can go before SAS starts getting bad at dealing with the controls, and anything below about 5 makes manual control impossibly sluggish as well.

[metroidman63]

metroidman63: it can't find Aerozine or N2O4, which certanly sounds like RF 4.1 isn't installed and working properly. Delete any ModularFuelTanks or RealFuels folder in ksp/gamedata. Extract the RealFuels v4.1 archive to ksp/gamedata. Before loading KSP, make sure you have only one module manager dll anywhere in gamedata. Then launch KSP. If it still fails, zip and upload your ksp/KSP_Data/output_log.txt

See the thing is that there's no crashing, it's just that the game stops loading, so I unfortunately don't have the output_log.txt to upload. The KSP.log message is consistent however, showing the same thing as I originally posted. I went and downloaded a fresh RealFuels_v4_1.zip and made sure I have a single ModuleManager 1_5_6 dll. I did some further testing too and found that this issue is specifically between RCS_Squad.cfg and RealFuels (even removed every other folder from Gamedata except Squad). Realfuels works on its own, RO works on its own, both work if I remove RCS_Squad.cfg.

[dlrk]

Nathan, was it intended for almost all of the lower stage engines in RFTS to be started electrically and be non-restartable?

[AbeS]

I bet it is, First stage engines should only be used as first stage engines, no need to shut them down

[dlrk]

Abe, why is that? I'd like to launch with a first stage engine, shut it down and then begin circularization with it.

[NathanKell]

dlrk: materials might work on first glance, but a "part" in KSP, particularly a fuselage part, is a collection of lots of stuff: heat shielding, outer skin, framework, wiring, probably multiple pressure vessels, ducting, electronics, etc. That's why one needs to look at the masses of actual craft, IMO. They're not just empty shells. Unless they're fairings, obviously...

In RF, 1 unit = 1 liter. What you probably should do is look at drawings of, say, Skylon or X-33 that show the size of the tank vs the size of the structure around it, then sketch out how much of the part you could use for, say, two capsule tanks. Then use their volume.

As a general rule, I find that 20% of a cylinder is non-pressure-vessel space, and for a fuselage (especially one with heat shielding, wiring, tank ducting, etc.) it may be up to 30% of the volume wasted.

To find the size of a part, use a stretchy tank as a measuring tool. Scale up a superstretchy, then clip it so it surrrounds the part, then gradually cut its width and height until you find the part's dimensions.

Ferram: Good to know! I switched all my RftS engines over to dtobi's gimbal (with mass-proprotional speed), but I'm having (and so are some others) some weird control-inversion effects, so I might have to go back. RealEngines still uses the stock module though.

metroidman63: KSP appears to sometimes load my module before it knows the RCS module exists. It doesn't for me, though...working on it.

dlrk: pretty much. Some of the L+ ones support multipl reignitions at higher TLs though (5? 6? 7?). Which engines in particular are you wanting to use? Even an SSTO* will generally use something other than its main engine for orbital insertion and retro-fire.

*I mean any SSTO, not just "spaceplane SSTO."

It's actually non-trivial to make a big engine with a big turbopump restart. That's why most restartable engines are pressure-fed hypergolics.

[jrandom]

I'm suddenly finding the turbotjets to be greatly overpowered. I'm using the RealEngines included with RO... are the jet modifications included in RtfSEngines?

[NathanKell]

Nope. Jets shouldn't be touched, unless I goofed.

[jrandom]

Nope. Jets shouldn't be touched, unless I goofed.

I seem to recall turbojets maxing out at around 1200m/s, whereas this plane easily hits 1700m/s:

[dlrk]

Nathan: Makes sense, I'll try examining Skylon info, see what I can find. I also considered using Space Shuttle data.

I'd like to restart the LR88, but if that doesn't make sense, I won't do it. Although it sounds like it, I'm actually not working on an SSTO spaceplane. The project I'm working on spaceplane parts for is a VTHL crew shuttle that launches with an on board fuel tank and main engine(s), and SRBs, and lands on water like a flying boat or sea plane.

The craft I need a restartable lower stage engine for is one I've had various iterations for probably around a year or so. It's 2 stage to orbit reusable crew shuttle with an expendable first stage. The first stage is expendable and burns twice, once from launch to desired apoapsis achieved and again to begin circularization at that apoapsis, the circularization being completed by the crew shuttle's engines.

The current variant has four LR42R, protected by the large inflatable heatshield, which is extended by a robotics piston for inflation and retracted after to cover the rockets. B9 brakes are on top, mounted to the crew compartment(a mk1-2 capsule) to force a retrograde attitude.

[ferram4]

@jrandom: I think it's the result of a bug that was in my turbojet nerfing (it didn't do exactly what I wanted originally) being fixed combined with the stock ignition threshold capability being fixed.

[jrandom]

@jrandom: I think it's the result of a bug that was in my turbojet nerfing (it didn't do exactly what I wanted originally) being fixed combined with the stock ignition threshold capability being fixed.

Ah, so they were underpowered in previous releases!

Edit: ... are turbojets really capable of hitting Mach 9 at 49km? I'm only in the very early chapters of the books I ordered and don't have a sense of real-world performance yet:

Edited January 12, 2014 by jrandom

[NathanKell]

dlrk: cool!

The LR88 does support considerable throttling (down to, what, 56% or so at TL6 which would be right for that kind of craft?) so that can help some. Throttle back as soon as you go over 3G? That said with RSS if you curve your ascent right you shouldn't really have to cut engines and restart, right? Maybe ~200m/s insertion burn after a single launch burn? Or does the high TWR all the way up mean you're burning too far away from apogee? (If so, try a flatter ascent, trying to keep apogee only a few dozen seconds ahead at most.)

How much dV does your crew shuttle have? Also, have considered crossfeeding from the mani booster to the shuttle? Even if the engines run on different fuels, you could stick some of the shuttle's engines' fuels into the external tank.

jrandom: Heh, no. But recall that we consider KSP turbojets actually turboramjets (and even that strains credulity).

metroidman63: thanks to lots of testing help from Draft, figured it out. It's because you have RCS Sounds, which replaces ModuleRCS with its own module. While I am currently trying to support that as well transparently (hopefully in RFv4.2), for now just remove the RCS Sounds mod.

[ferram4]

@jrandom: That shouldn't be happening. Nope. No way. That's SCRAMjet country, and even they have issues there. I will look and see what's wrong with the ModuleManager config.

[jrandom]

jrandom: Heh, no. But recall that we consider KSP turbojets actually turboramjets (and even that strains credulity).

I got it up to 4030m/s at 52km, but then parts of the plane began exploding. Even for a ramjet, Mach 14 seems... a little high?

[pingopete]

Whats the deal with installation? I have RF 4.1 and want to get the realistic RCS fuels from RO but can't run both RO & RF at the same time, results in game freeze at end of loading? I'm running the latest of both, are they meant to work together?

[metroidman63]

Uhhh...well no I don't have RCS Sounds (though good thing you found that bug anyways haha), and after re-extracting ROv3 yet again this time it worked...completely confused but I'm not complaining lol. Weird stuff. Finally get to enjoy RSS in all its glory thanks all the hard work all of you here put in.

[Agathorn]

Thanks i'll give that a try. I am indeed using the RftS engines.

Deleting the cfg files for EngineIgnitor seems to have corrected the issues I was having. At least for the engines I am currently using anyway. Thanks!

[pingopete]

See the thing is that there's no crashing, it's just that the game stops loading, so I unfortunately don't have the output_log.txt to upload. The KSP.log message is consistent however, showing the same thing as I originally posted. I went and downloaded a fresh RealFuels_v4_1.zip and made sure I have a single ModuleManager 1_5_6 dll. I did some further testing too and found that this issue is specifically between RCS_Squad.cfg and RealFuels (even removed every other folder from Gamedata except Squad). Realfuels works on its own, RO works on its own, both work if I remove RCS_Squad.cfg.

Indeed I have found the exact same issue, something to do with squad parts and rcs :/ a shame as thats the only part of RO I currently want

[NathanKell]

pingopete: are you using RcsSounds? Or anything else that replaces RCS modules or engine modules?

[dlrk]

Nathan, and anyone else who may be interested:

I resized the B9 S2 LFO to ~3.6 x 3.6 x 2.7, with a volume of 35.2. Deducting 30% for space unavailable for fuel, I came up with a usable volume of 24.7 m3 or 24700 liters.

Having gathered/calculated rough estimates of volume for the space shuttle, Skylon, X-30 and dream chaser, I came up with this list:

5.6 kilograms per cubic meter ss

.47 kilograms per cubic meter sk

5.9 kilograms per cubic meter x30

90 kilograms per cubic meter dream chaser

For the space shuttle, the height and diameter was obtained from Wikipedia, and the empty weight from credible results from Google.

Skylon was obtained from the reaction engines 'manual'(http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/tech_docs/SKYLON_User_Manual_rev1-1.pdf

X-30 from wikipedia and this schematic(http://www.456fis.org/X-PLANES/myst03%5B1%5D.gif)

Dream chaser was calculated using length, width and weight from wikipedia, and height was estimated by looking at a picture of the test article with a person standing next to it, and eastimating its size as slightly taller than the average person, as height was unavailable 'officially'.

I discarded Skylon and Dream Chaser as out of range. I assume this is because Skylon is planned to be built with exotic materials and filled with hydrogen, with minimal wiring, insulation etc, planned to be uncrewed and Dream Chaser is quite small.

I averaged the weight of the X-30 and Shuttle to 5.8 kilograms per cubic meter, multiplied this by the 35.2 volume for the S2 LFO and came up with a weight .204 metric tons.

So, to summarize

Rescaled B9 S2 LFO by 1.245.

Size now roughly 3.6 x 3.6 x 2.7

Weight now .204 metric tons

Total volume 35.2, fuel volume 24.7

I'm not a professional or very good at math, so I may have screwed up horribly. This does seem reasonable to me, though.

[brooklyn666]

So I finally made the jump to using RSS/Realism overhaul, and I'm running into some problems. I imagine most of these are part of the learning curve, and I apologize if my questions are covered elsewhere; it's possible I've missed things while trying to absorb all of this new info, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

1) Some engines are not properly sized. That's a 2.5m engine with a 2.5m AIES fuel tank. Is there a cfg rescale edit somewhere that I need to change, or are they only meant to work with the stretchy tanks?

2) I'm guessing this is a problem with FAR or Deadly Reentry, but I didn't have this problem with either mod on the original size solar system. Basically, upon 1st stage cutoff, the second I jettison the stage, my upper stage and payload explodes, and the debris starts flying away from kerbin at a large fraction of c.

. I've checked the logs but there's no useful information there.

Again, any help is greatly appreciated.

[dlrk]

I used the same numbers for the cargo and fuel S2 fuselages. For the crew compartment and cockpit, I added 400 kilograms to account for crew and supplies, giving a weight of .6 metric tons