[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[taniwha]

@ayothepizzaThat sounds very much like you have MSI installed and it's disabling most of EL's parts

[ayothepizza]

What is MSI? Sorry, I installed KSP like 3 weeks ago and just started installing mods after I got the hang of things.

[taniwha]

@ayothepizza Another colonization mod that happens do disable a lot of EL stuff by default. I might have gotten it slightly wrong as there's also USI (Umbral Space Industries) that is by the same author (I've forgotten what MSI stands for).

Anyway, if you don't have any of RoverDude's mods installed, then the problem is elsewhere (but that's the usual cause).

Otherwise, I'll need your KSP.log file to sort out what's going on.

[ayothepizza]

27 minutes ago, taniwha said:

@ayothepizza Another colonization mod that happens do disable a lot of EL stuff by default. I might have gotten it slightly wrong as there's also USI (Umbral Space Industries) that is by the same author (I've forgotten what MSI stands for).

Anyway, if you don't have any of RoverDude's mods installed, then the problem is elsewhere (but that's the usual cause).

Otherwise, I'll need your KSP.log file to sort out what's going on.

I have the Warp Drive mod installed, which I think is one of RoverDude's mods because I found it on a list of mods here: https://umbraspaceindustries.github.io/UmbraSpaceIndustries/. I also have CommunityCategoryKit and CommunityResourcePack.

Edited December 6, 2020 by ayothepizza
Added a few more mods that I had that were presumably of RoverDude's.

[pmoffitt]

7 hours ago, ayothepizza said:

I have the Warp Drive mod installed, which I think is one of RoverDude's mods because I found it on a list of mods here: https://umbraspaceindustries.github.io/UmbraSpaceIndustries/. I also have CommunityCategoryKit and CommunityResourcePack.

CommunityCategoryKit and CommunityResourcePack shouldn't be the problem.  USI = Umbra Space Industries (your link above) which is RoverDude's collection of mods, some of which do not play well with EL.  Konstruction! was one that caused me issues and I think MKS/OKS is the one that @taniwhawas thinking of (and caused me issues).

Alcubierre Warp Drive is a bit outdated but doesn't have all the dependencies that I would think cause such issues.  I would probably look at installing the dev version which is slightly newer as it says it is being updated for KSP v 1.10.  It seems that RoverDude has several mods that have not been updated for KSP v 1.10 at least 1 will not run without tweaking it.  However, if you look at the dev code, he has already fixed some of the issues but just hasn't pushed them to release.  With KSP updates in the works (1.11) and KSP 2 being worked on, it isn't really encouraging for mod developers to push out updates as they are going to have to just do it again in a short time.

Edited December 6, 2020 by pmoffitt

[ayothepizza]

Sorry for pulling this one late, but even when I install EL with no other mods, and all of it's dependencies, it still won't work. Also, I think I might be downloading the wrong link, because when I click the download link for the first post back in 2013, the page brings me to a new tab and then closes it really quickly without putting in a new address. I cleared cookies, cache, etc, and still won't work, so I downloaded it off of here: https://github.com/taniwha/Extraplanetary-Launchpads Is this a problem? Have I just installed the wrong thing? Also, if it helps, here is a list of folders in my GameData directory:

000_FilterExtensions, 000_FilterExtensions_Configs, CommunityCategoryKit, CommunityResourcePack, Extraplanetary-Launchpads-6.8.2, KAS, KIS, KSPIE+1.26.5+for+KSP+1.8.1, ModuleManager-4.1.4, PlanetaryBaseInc, Squad, TweakScale, WarpPlugin, ModuleManager.ConfigCache, ModuleManager.ConfigSHA, ModuleManager.Physics, ModuleManager.TechTree. Inside the KSPIE folder contains: CommunityResourcePack, DecouplerShroud, InterstellarFuelSwitch, ModuleManagerWatchDog, 666_ModuleManagerWatchDog.dll, 999_Scale_Redist.dll, ModuleManager.4.1.3.dll

Do any of these files create conflicts with EL?

Edited December 6, 2020 by ayothepizza

[Hohmannson]

3 hours ago, ayothepizza said:

Sorry for pulling this one late, but even when I install EL with no other mods, and all of it's dependencies, it still won't work. Also, I think I might be downloading the wrong link, because when I click the download link for the first post back in 2013, the page brings me to a new tab and then closes it really quickly without putting in a new address. I cleared cookies, cache, etc, and still won't work, so I downloaded it off of here: https://github.com/taniwha/Extraplanetary-Launchpads Is this a problem? Have I just installed the wrong thing? Also, if it helps, here is a list of folders in my GameData directory:

000_FilterExtensions, 000_FilterExtensions_Configs, CommunityCategoryKit, CommunityResourcePack, Extraplanetary-Launchpads-6.8.2, KAS, KIS, KSPIE+1.26.5+for+KSP+1.8.1, ModuleManager-4.1.4, PlanetaryBaseInc, Squad, TweakScale, WarpPlugin, ModuleManager.ConfigCache, ModuleManager.ConfigSHA, ModuleManager.Physics, ModuleManager.TechTree. Inside the KSPIE folder contains: CommunityResourcePack, DecouplerShroud, InterstellarFuelSwitch, ModuleManagerWatchDog, 666_ModuleManagerWatchDog.dll, 999_Scale_Redist.dll, ModuleManager.4.1.3.dll

Do any of these files create conflicts with EL?

Well, you'd downloaded source code instead of mod. Mod is here http://taniwha.org/~bill/ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads_v6.8.2.zip

[ayothepizza]

37 minutes ago, Hohmannson said:

Well, you'd downloaded source code instead of mod. Mod is here http://taniwha.org/~bill/ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads_v6.8.2.zip

That's the problem; That link will just open a new tab, and then quickly close it in less than half a second without putting in a new address. It might be a browser problem. Does the link work for you? If so, what browser are you using? Any tips on how to fix this issue?
 

[Hohmannson]

52 minutes ago, ayothepizza said:

That's the problem; That link will just open a new tab, and then quickly close it in less than half a second without putting in a new address. It might be a browser problem. Does the link work for you? If so, what browser are you using? Any tips on how to fix this issue?
 

Opera. It is Chromium based, like all modern browsers. The download starts after the tab closes. Try using a different browser or a proxy server. Or just paste this link to download manager if you have one, it points directly to file. Just tried it, the file is avaiable.

[pmoffitt]

1 hour ago, ayothepizza said:

That's the problem; That link will just open a new tab, and then quickly close it in less than half a second without putting in a new address. It might be a browser problem. Does the link work for you? If so, what browser are you using? Any tips on how to fix this issue?
 

It closes right away but downloads the zip file to my downloads folder.  I am using Windows 10 and Edge.  However, you should just install CKAN and use it to do the installs CKAN (The Comprehensive Kerbal Archive Network) - v1.29.0 Eddington - Add-on Releases - Kerbal Space Program Forums

Edited December 6, 2020 by pmoffitt

[ayothepizza]

Thanks for the tips, I'm going to try these methods out right now.

 

Well, uh, I'm stupid, using Edge to install it worked, and now the EL parts that are integrated with PSB are working, just not the parts that are added by EL alone, but that's okay, since I don't think i'm going to need a bigger launchpad (Unless I do, which I think I can just use structural panels for) Thanks for the help!

Edited December 6, 2020 by ayothepizza

[taniwha]

Oh, I forgot about that possibility. Sorry.

[Hohmannson]

1 hour ago, ayothepizza said:

Thanks for the tips, I'm going to try these methods out right now.

 

Well, uh, I'm stupid, using Edge to install it worked, and now the EL parts that are integrated with PSB are working, just not the parts that are added by EL alone, but that's okay, since I don't think i'm going to need a bigger launchpad (Unless I do, which I think I can just use structural panels for) Thanks for the help!

Reinstall it clean, overwriting source folder with actual mod may do very bad things.

[pmoffitt]

52 minutes ago, Hohmannson said:

Reinstall it clean, overwriting source folder with actual mod may do very bad things.

@ayothepizzaYes, when I was having issues about 6 months ago, I had to reinstall a clean version of KSP and then install the mods I was going to keep.  I got it from Steam, so, I made a copy (or 2) of the install and use one of the copies as my main.  (As suggested by others to keep the auto updates from Steam from breaking your game and mods.) It seemed that just removing the offending mods (using CKAN) didn't fix all my issues.

[Snoman314]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:22 AM, taniwha said:

This is where reading the manual might help. They're not actually units, they're mass ratios (I think they're just direct resource units for massless resources). It seems I used grams for the LFO smelter, but that' s just to make the ratios easier (since they all come from the molecular weights of the ingredients). The actual mass rate is determined by the Rate field in the ELConverter module node and the current efficiency.. However it seems to be kg/s for the efficiency with the smallest mass flow (0 mass recipes are skipped for this as all efficiencies' masses are divided by the smallest).

I found the relevant code:

                if (ingredient.Density > 0) {
                    r.Ratio = ingredient.ratio / ingredient.Density;
                    r.Ratio /= 1000;    // convert from kg/s to t/s
                } else {
                    r.Ratio = ingredient.ratio;
                }

r is the stock converter ratio, which works in units/second instead of mass/second (resource densities are t/u, thus the /1000)

I had been reading the manual, but that post made it all click finally. I just got finished putting this together:

Spoiler

EL_ConverterRecipe {
	name = HydrogenArcSmelter
	// efficiency is 0..1

	// MetalOre is assumed to be hematite (Fe2O3) which is 159.6882g/mol
	// Hydrogen is molecular hydrogen (H2) so 2.01588g/mol
	//
	// Metal is pure Iron (Fe), so 55.845g/mol.
	// Water (H2O) is 18.01528g/mol.
	//
	// This gives the following reaction:
	// Fe2O3 + 3H2 -> 2Fe + 3H2O
	// with the following masses for one mole of ore:
	//  input
	//   Fe2O3 = 159.6882g
	//   H2 = 6.04764g
	//  output
	//   Fe = 111.69g
	//   H2O = 54.04584g
	Input {
		efficiency = 1
		// The energy cost I just set to be the difference of the output energies.
		ElectricCharge = 111.19737 -111.19737
		MetalOre = 159.6882
		Hydrogen = 6.04764
	}
	Output {
		efficiency = 1
		// See "Theoretical Minimum Energies To Produce Steel" by
		// R.J. Fruehan, O. Fortini, H.W. Paxton, R. Brindle
		// Note I use the values for output of hot metal, not room temperature
		Metal = 111.69 -968.68737 // 8673 kJ/kg of Metal, 0.11169kg Metal,
		Water = 54.04584 857.49 // energy released by H2 reacting with Oxygen
	}

	// When the smelter is too cold to reduce the ore, it's just heated by the arc.
	// I set it to 10 MJ to heat the smelter when not warmed up.
	Input {
		efficiency = 0
		ElectricCharge = 10000 -10000
	}
	Output {
		efficiency = 0
	}
}

EL_ConverterRecipe {
	name = ElectricRemelter
	Input {
		efficiency = 1
		ScrapMetal = 3000
		ElectricCharge = 3822 -3822
	}
	Output {
		efficiency = 1
		// See "Theoretical Minimum Energies To Produce Steel" by
		// R.J. Fruehan, O. Fortini, H.W. Paxton, R. Brindle
		Metal = 3000 -3822 // 1274kJ/kg of Metal, 3kg Metal
	}
	
	// When the smelter is too cold to reduce the ore, it's just heated by the arc.
	// I set it to 10 MJ to heat the smelter when not warmed up.
	Input {
		efficiency = 0
		ElectricCharge = 10000 -10000
	}
	Output {
		efficiency = 0
	}
}

 

 

On 12/5/2020 at 5:06 AM, pmoffitt said:

Here is the MM cfg for creating Electric Smelters per @Snoman314's suggestions.  I haven't really used it yet but it looks correct when looking at the parts it created.  Interesting that the ECHeated recipes still use some LFO.

You still need some kind of reducing agent for the ore to react with.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Snoman314
Put a spoiler around code to compact it.

[GrimT]

Im currently playing on a 1.8 build of the game and was wondering which version of EPL I should be using.  When I start up the game, AVC tells me the version Im using is for 1.9.  Is that an issue?

[taniwha]

@GrimT delete the .version file from EL's game directory (error in my build process). EL is known to work on 1.8, 1.9 and 1.10.

[pmoffitt]

22 hours ago, Snoman314 said:

You still need some kind of reducing agent for the ore to react with.

Ah, chemistry, something to react with the Oxygen to remove it from the ore.  I guess we can't just use an electric field to rip the molecule apart like hydrolysis. 

And I guess I should use the Spoiler instead of code section.

[Snoman314]

17 minutes ago, pmoffitt said:

Ah, chemistry, something to react with the Oxygen to remove it from the ore.  I guess we can't just use an electric field to rip the molecule apart like hydrolysis. 

And I guess I should use the Spoiler instead of code section.

Yeah I don't know. AFAIK that's how aluminium is smelted - direct electrolysis. I'm quite sure if that worked for iron it'd be in widespread use, because it'd be cheaper. At least using hydrogen, the water produced is easily split with electrolysis, and you can re-use the hydrogen. End net result is energy and ore in, metal and oxygen out. I guess it's just the level of abstraction/complexity you want. Personally I liked the idea of hydrogen smelting, as that's becoming a thing IRL.

[taniwha]

Electrolysis is not necessarily cheaper. The reason it's used for aluminum is because that's pretty much the only way (its bond with oxygen is too strong for there to be any effective reducing agents).

I think the reason electrolysis is not used for iron is the process normally requires a liquid, but carbon-based reduction works even in the solid state, so there's no need to get the smelter as hot.

[Snoman314]

1 hour ago, taniwha said:

Electrolysis is not necessarily cheaper. The reason it's used for aluminum is because that's pretty much the only way (its bond with oxygen is too strong for there to be any effective reducing agents).

I found this hard to believe so I did the numbers, and wow. Yeah OK.

USA 2019 average industrial electricity was 6.83c / kWh, or $18.97/GJ. Coke goes for roughly $150/short ton = $165/tonne @ approx 31 GJ/tonne = $5.37/GJ

1 hour ago, taniwha said:

I think the reason electrolysis is not used for iron is the process normally requires a liquid, but carbon-based reduction works even in the solid state, so there's no need to get the smelter as hot.

That makes sense, as it would therefore be the first method developed, and so the most mature method, even if other methods have been developed.

I've learnt more about smelting in the last few days than I ever thought I would! 

[taniwha]

2 hours ago, Snoman314 said:

I've learnt more about smelting in the last few days than I ever thought I would! 

That was me working out the balancing for the smelters

[GrimT]

17 hours ago, taniwha said:

@GrimT delete the .version file from EL's game directory (error in my build process). EL is known to work on 1.8, 1.9 and 1.10.

Okay, so I could technically use the most up to date version with my 1.8 build then, and deleting the .version will just eliminate that 'error' message.

[Snoman314]

OK I finally finished constructing my space station. I mounted a smelter and switched it on to process the scrap that had accumulated, and the whole vessel glitches and disappears. Lots of occurances of this exception in the log:

[EXC 08:46:26.026] IndexOutOfRangeException: Index was outside the bounds of the array.
	ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads.ELConverter.DetermineEfficiency (System.Double temperature) (at <c9cf5b93cb4b4703a8fc2d8ce74fedde>:0)
	ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads.ELConverter.PrepareRecipe (System.Double deltatime) (at <c9cf5b93cb4b4703a8fc2d8ce74fedde>:0)
	BaseConverter.FixedUpdate () (at <c1858a3f77504bd1aaa946fdccf84670>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)

Is this likely due to my recipe? It works fine in testing (with simple smelter/probe core/power source test vessels).

[taniwha]

7 hours ago, Snoman314 said:

Is this likely due to my recipe? It works fine in testing (with simple smelter/probe core/power source test vessels).

Yesssss..buuuuut......

It looks like there might be a bug in my code that works though the efficiency curve. It looks like it fails if there is only one point on the efficiency curve (in the part cfg).

I'm currently knee-deep in other code, so could you file an issue on github, please?