Resources - postponed, cancelled or reserved for a DLC?

[FITorion]

I hate DLC. What's above hate? What ever that is with the passion of 1000 burning suns for DLC they charge you for.

I payed for the game... updates should be free. DLC is just updates renamed.

I like Expansions. Expansions are different from DLC in that they are almost entirely separate games in terms of volume of content added. I don't mind paying for an expansion. Expansions are fine. I hate being nickled and dimed which is what microtransactions(payed DLC) are.

Last I heard Resources had been delayed... Some of the more complex things that resources might have allowed... Building buildings on other planets and being able to build and launch rockets from there might have been pushed to an expansion. As well as other solar systems... They need to draw the line somewhere for what KSP 1.0 will be. Then they can look to what an expansion might be.

[Seret]

They would hardly plan to implement a feature (resources) that would further increase the complexity of the game by an order of magnitude.

I agree that's keeping it simple and light is the plan, which is why I think you'll find the actual implementation will be pretty simplified and abstract. In a sense we already have several resources already, we have electricity, two types of fuel + oxidiser, "science". If they added "supplies" and/or "life support" I think I'd call that a pretty complete resources system without an insane amount of complexity. Dunno, will be interesting to see what they come up with, for sure.

[Scotius]

How far along are you in the game Torham234? Because one day you might run out of things to do. Docking becomes trivial. Maintaining space station around Moho turns into a chore. You have so much science points you can research entire Tech tree twice. You land on Eeloo, return from there and...what? Making game easier for new players is important - but with time and experience newbie becomes a pro, and asks for more. Resource system offers mind blowing possibilities - ultimately leading to turning entire planetary system into a home of a thriving space civilisation. With mining, industry and self-sufficient colonies on every planet and moon. Imagine replayability options available to us then. SQUAD would shoot themselves in the foot by abandoning this part of space program.

[Godot]

...

I payed for the game... updates should be free. DLC is just updates renamed.

....

Actually IIRC, if you preordered KSP before it went to Steam, all future DLCs are free for you

[Moach]

Being a mere moderator (we're volunteers you know) I cannot speak for the KSP dev crew about their position on this.

I can speak for my own, tho - For just recently, I was mesmerized to learn that this was NOT an aprils fools gag as it had initially struck me. This was presented at a time I was away, and not up to date with KSP development much, if at all. I came back at after it had all been talked away and many fires put out (apparently, this was a big deal back then) - So I knew nothing of it right up until last week or so.

I reckon the "DLC incident" and this are closely related - so let's tread lightly, as this might be a rather volcanic topic to be walking around...

But I will say that my previous comment was indeed incorrect, as I later learned (to my utter amazement:confused:) - Apparently this had been considered, and that chart is indeed official. But what became of the ideas in it is not very clear at the moment. At least, it's not clear enough for me.

Note that I'm not affiliated with Squad in any official way besides patrolling the boards and having HarvesteR for a twin brother...

My personal point of view is that this is quite a long shot from the premise and concept of the core game. If anything it'd make a good mod (and has, It's called Kethane)

And nevertheless I cannot really tell what state this happens to be in, if abandoned or postponed or whatever... I'm pretty confident that the sketch above is not a good basis for expectations, in any case. But this is mostly my own judgement about the matter (which I understand little of, I'm afraid - and I was not around when it happened)

I know that "Patience" is a rather alien notion to the Internet, but then again - It's what I'd recommend. Wait and see.

But try not to think about that chart as a "promise" really. I for one, like to see it more as some form of "out loud thinking" by the devs at that one time. Whatever it was that they were thinking...

Again, this is not an official statement. Moderators are official as far as their moderating duties go. Most of which is just about ensuring the forums and wiki are not on fire or being attacked by a swarm of Velociraptors (a scenario for which we run regular drills (j/k: we don't - perhaps we should)).

As for being family with lead developer, it just might make me less reliable a source, if anything...

cheers

----------------- official moderator part --------------------

If this thread evolves into a debate about DLC, it'll be considered off topic and eventually closed.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Moach

[Torham234]

How far along are you in the game Torham234? Because one day you might run out of things to do. Docking becomes trivial. Maintaining space station around Moho turns into a chore. You have so much science points you can research entire Tech tree twice. You land on Eeloo, return from there and...what? Making game easier for new players is important - but with time and experience newbie becomes a pro, and asks for more. Resource system offers mind blowing possibilities - ultimately leading to turning entire planetary system into a home of a thriving space civilisation. With mining, industry and self-sufficient colonies on every planet and moon. Imagine replayability options available to us then. SQUAD would shoot themselves in the foot by abandoning this part of space program.

I have purchased KSP in March I think, perhaps a week or so after the 0.18 update. You would be surprised I haven't actually done that much in KSP however. I treat it like some of the other games I bought in beta, that they are incomplete. I play it from time to time, and skulk the forums, but I am waiting for the full release. I think most of my time in KSP has been spend designing planes in spaceplane hangar.

I wasn't really talking about my view of KSP complexity, rather than what I think is the direction the devs would be likely to take. Sure lots of us are pros - I can make a SSTO on pretty much first - second iteration of my design, but the point of the game is not to offer infinite replay value to everyone. If you have mastered all there is to master in the game, than its fine, you have probable had your value out of it. Sure it would be nice to have resources, and I would love it to bits, I am just not sure the dev team is willing to spend half a year increasing complexity of the game that is not even finished yet.

[czokletmuss]

-snip-

Thank you for this post - I know it's just your personal opinion but it's something I really hope there will be some kind of official statement soon!

----------------- official moderator part --------------------

If this thread evolves into a debate about DLC, it'll be considered off topic and eventually closed.

Sure thing, nobody wants a flamewar. I hope it won't happen.

[tiger336]

In my mind its postponed. Resources is part of career mode I say it's a good thing squad got the start of that first. In my mind if I were to guess to when we see the frame work of resources it be .25+ but hey that's my guess.

[Nexustrimean]

They have been Postponed. Unfortunately This got lost in the DLC Incident. They were said to be in .19, and several of the systems were in various stages of work/completeness.

I hesitate to bring up the DLC Stream again, but in it it was said that no announced Planned feature would be used as DLC or Expansions. As Resources were announced and in development prior, it is unlikely that they will become DLC. They have been postponed as the underlying systems that are needed to make them fit into the game are not yet implemented. there is no scanning or mapping, which is required for resources. Also we Just got biomes which is another precursor to having location based resource distribution. I see them comming down the pipeline at some point, but not till the game is ready for them, even if the players are ready for them now.

[FITorion]

as I understand it that chart was the plan. Then they switched focus from end game sandbox to career and axed half the resource system. The half about buildings and colonies and infrastructure and building an operating space civilization. Since then the only word we've gotten is that the plans have changed and they are not prepared to discuss it further and we shouldn't expect further discussion until career mode is mostly done. The discussion of whether resources or some part of resources will be in the base game or DLC or an expansion and our feelings on DLC and expansions in general is very related.

[Moach]

I think it's safe to rule out the DLC option here... maybe...

I mean, at least under the implications of the growingly disfavorable term "DLC" -- if read as "expansion pack" suddenly, all petty worries seem to go away.

this is because "DLC" nowadays has a certain connotation of "stuff that was supposed to be already in there but they're making you pay for it" -- we all wanna stay away from that. So better just do away with it and forget those greedy big companies and those horrible things they did to ruin that particular piece of terminology for all the rest of us.

anyhow, I still wouldn't hold my breath for any of that resources stuff - the game is simply not ready to handle it and this vastly exceeds the complexity levels of any feature implemented so far...

whatever of it ever does come along, it's unlikely to be anytime too soon, and almost certainly not all in one release - this would require near-magical development productivity. the kind of which no budget can provide.

game development is a practice that has an unbreakable speed limit. (much as does light) - no amount of money can ever remove or power through this barrier, as management costs (not only financially) grow exponentially with team sizes, converging towards infinity as the intended timeframe constraint nears the asymptote.

getting a game done "now" is like dividing by zero, by that logic.

this I know 'cause I'm also a game dev. So I've been there... But again: Not working for Squad, so this is me - not them.

cheers

Edited December 11, 2013 by Moach

[regex]

I'd say postponed but only because we have a perfectly adequate mod to cover things like that while the devs get career mode off the ground.

Resources is part of career mode

Why? People are already using Kethane in sandbox mode for a variety of things, there's no reason stock resources can't be used in both game modes.

[SkyRender]

Resources are pretty obviously going to feature in Career mode in one form or another. Just read some of the Mun biome surface sample descriptions if you want more proof of that. In fact, I suspect resources are going to go above and beyond what's shown on that chart (or possibly just to the side of it) by having a mess of different valuable materials you can harvest and return to Kerbin for profit. Until we have an economy in KSP, however, that doesn't have much purpose. Ergo, once money is introduced into career mode, resources will stand a fair chance of getting back on the radar too.

[magnemoe]

I hate DLC. What's above hate? What ever that is with the passion of 1000 burning suns for DLC they charge you for.

I payed for the game... updates should be free. DLC is just updates renamed.

I like Expansions. Expansions are different from DLC in that they are almost entirely separate games in terms of volume of content added. I don't mind paying for an expansion. Expansions are fine. I hate being nickled and dimed which is what microtransactions(payed DLC) are.

Last I heard Resources had been delayed... Some of the more complex things that resources might have allowed... Building buildings on other planets and being able to build and launch rockets from there might have been pushed to an expansion. As well as other solar systems... They need to draw the line somewhere for what KSP 1.0 will be. Then they can look to what an expansion might be.

Depend on how it's done. Skyrim and Fallout 3 fallout new Vegas did DLC well. As I understand they switched from expansions to smaller dlc for a bunch of reasons. First is that they keep the game fresh, then the expansion come out much later then many players has moved on to other games. They let them add new features missing in the original game even adjust balance.

But the main benefit is that digital download is far cheaper for the company than publishing an DVD.

However Skyrim and Fallout was large games with boatload of content, the EA way of doing it is not. Look like next gen consoles will be even worse with full price games where you need micro transactions to unlock cars in the game.

Few of us would complain about a interstelar dlc half a year after KSP 1.0 with say 12 new star systems.

[magnemoe]

I'd say postponed but only because we have a perfectly adequate mod to cover things like that while the devs get career mode off the ground.

Why? People are already using Kethane in sandbox mode for a variety of things, there's no reason stock resources can't be used in both game modes.

Yes, The Jool system is probably the most relevant place to refuel if you do an major science mission, the fuel cost for just getting into low orbit around all the moons is twice as high as going to Jool.

The only large ship I have landed on Tylo was an Kethane miner.

[PwnedDuck]

This, or new planets/bodies, is easily the most important feature-in-waiting. Every new update since .18 I've just been kinda disappointed with in waiting for it, and would really appreciate some kind of roadmap as to how far off/in this dimension or not resources are.

[InspectorBumHat]

This, or new planets/bodies, is easily the most important feature-in-waiting. Every new update since .18 I've just been kinda disappointed with in waiting for it, and would really appreciate some kind of roadmap as to how far off/in this dimension or not resources are.

Really? I think the most important feature above all others is proper aerodynamics, it will completely change the way we build rockets in game, not to mention the wonders it will do for planes.

[czokletmuss]

I'm having problems with Twitch (chat doesn't work for me) so could please someone ask the question - what's going on with resource system? - to Squad?

[The Jedi Master]

I think it's just postponed. That diagram is pretty complex, you know.

[El wonso]

But I actually think DLC is a great idea. Why? First of all, Squad will make more money. It's good for us, because it means that the company will prosper

If you like throwing your cash away - good luck, have fun. But don't say that it is a good idea. I don't worry about Squad making money. Why? Because if the game is good enough people will buy it. DLC is just sucking money from players.

Second of all, KSP is ridiculously cheap - I payed for it $16 and calculating (price/hours of fun) it was one of my best decisions ever in case of entertainment.

KSP costs now 27 euros I think. That's not cheap for a game, that after 3 years of development is still in "alpha stage" (probably the only reason KSP is considered to be alpha is that new content is still being added btw).

About the time you have spent playing KSP - good for you, you liked the game very much. But not everyone will like it enought to hit 300 h. Plus you cannot rate a game simply by the amount of time you spent playing one. It's also how much you enjoyed playing. And not everyone is a huge fan of space exploration.

[czokletmuss]

I understand your position but the best think about DLC is that they are not obligatory, that is - if you like them, buy them, if you don't, just don't. I'm talking here about DLC=expansion, not DLC=cut content which is a bad market practice. For my the best policy is that of Paradox Development - every now and then they release some DLCc (some are minor esthethic ones, some are big and game changing) but every time they release also a free patch improving the game substantially.

And not everyone is a huge fan of space exploration.

Why play KSP than?

Anyways, it's not a thread about DLCs. The question is what about resources system? We are waiting for some reponse Squad, please be so kind and tell us something

[KSK]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

Are resources really that important right now?

It's a serious question. At the moment, KSP space programmes are very much about 'footprints and flags'. Unless you really enjoy driving around on a planet for hours on end (which I have done to be fair!), there's not much to do once you land anywhere. Resources don't really add much to that. They can certainly make it easier by letting you set up fuel depots without shipping the fuel all the way from Kerbin. It would also be fun to have a few more things to drop onto a planet. However, none of this is necessary. It's perfectly possible to get anywhere in KSP using stock parts and a vanilla game. In other words, at the moment, resources are a nice-to-have feature - not having resources isn't hindering the core 'footprints and flags' part of the game.

If I have resources, I want to be able to do stuff with them other than refuelling ships. I want to build bases (build in place rather than dropping modules in from orbit) and keep them supplied with materials harvested in-situ. I want to mine and process metals on the Mun, manufacture basic structural parts and send them back into LKO. On-orbit construction to turn those parts into an orbital habitat, shipyard or whatever.

But all of this goes way beyond the current scope of the game. It would be fantastic to see it all in the release version but I don't think its very likely given the amount of time and effort it would take. Maybe a limited resource system (maybe a slightly more involved version of Kethane) at release and then an expansion pack with a much bigger and better resource system - and all the other stuff I was talking about too.

[Scotius]

Well, i want resources very much - and for the same reasons KSK mentioned. But frankly, i think we will have to wait for this feature for quite bit longer. I predict SQUAD will first implement an actual budget: money, missions, contracts from both private and government sources, maybe reputation. Then crew management system tied with budget and reputation system. And we'll get more science tweaks and biomes for planets\moons with every update. I can see resources being pushed back, to near the end of alpha stage. So patience might be in order

[czokletmuss]

Both of you are right. However, the main problem from my POV is not that we have to wait - I'm not that impatient and good implementation takes time. The problem is Squad didn't say anything about it for months (unless I don't know about something). And I would love to see some official statement about the future of resource system.

[Sapphire]

Personally, I wouldn't care whether they made one or not. Most of the stuff I do in my space program anyway is just for Rule Of Coolâ„¢ and when I feel like doing important stuff, Kethane serves my purposes flawlessly.