Manned (Kerbaled) flights in career mode...

[richiespeed13]

Hi All,

Firstly, let me just say hello to everyone, I have been lurking for a while as I have played KSP, but not yet made any posts. KSP is way too awesome, I am finding myself losing far too much sleep because I am often so hell bent on finishing a ship or mission...

Anyway, I know career mode is very young, but there is one thing about it which I was hoping may be changed. Perhaps I am wrong, and there are good reasons for it being the way it is, if so, let me know.

Basically, I think for the sake of realism, it would be better if we started with unmanned rockets in the beginning of our careers, sending them into orbits, even to the Mun, and slowly "learning" about space and space ships. After enough unmanned science is earned, it would then be a good time to unlock the first single Kerbal pod, and we can begin our journeys into Kerbaled space missions.

At the moment, it feels like we are building a fiery rocket machine, with no testing or experience, and strapping poor old Jeb to it and then "hoping for the best".

(LOL, that is pretty much how every mission I launch feels, but you get the point!)

Just an idea!

Cheers all.

[Monger]

Basically, I think for the sake of realism, it would be better if we started with unmanned rockets in the beginning of our careers, sending them into orbits, even to the Mun, and slowly "learning" about space and space ships.

This has been suggested quite a few times already. It was actually more or less the first reaction after the research tree was revealed.

Regarding realism: although it's true that Sputnik was the first man-made object in space, it wasn't exactly an autonomous, remote controllable satellite. Remember the first moon landing in 1969 predates the PC era at least by a decade. All they had then were a few very basic flight controls. At least back then, fully automated moon landings would have been next to impossible.

In reality, downsizing has a lot of benefits, and is quite complex technology. Smaller rockets are more reliable, cheaper and more flexible. As soon as you develop autonomous satellites in KSP you can basically reach every point (and transmit science from it) in the solar system without much trouble.

Although most of the KSP players tend to "bigger is better", I think the small parts should be hard-earned.

[LameLefty]

At least back then, fully automated moon landings would have been next to impossible.

Surveyor missions did it a couple times.

[Joe Shmoe]

I completely agree. When I play KSP, I try to follow the chronological order of actual space history, so it bothered me that career mode starts off with manned missions. I think it would be interesting to add a science part that examines the safety of kerbaled space flight (perhaps recording radiation or some other common hazard of space). It would provide the science needed to get the first manned command modules while still adding realism to the game.

[annallia]

NovaPunch allows for a probe core to be in the first tier of career mode. However I find myself still not using it as I need several of them since I don't have batteries right off the bat.

[Kasuha]

Remember the first moon landing in 1969 predates the PC era at least by a decade.

Lack of CPU power did not stop people from building

. Astronauts were not landing their module on Moon by hand and eye, not even close. The computing tools they had were primitive from our perspective, but they were still good enough for the task.

But I think we need to go back further. Don't forget Kerbals invented rockets before airplanes.

And when people invented planes, even mechanical computers were way too big and heavy to be used. So for first planes there was no other option than that a human must step in and fly it regardless of the risk. And many people indeed died before airplane physics were understood and standards established.

And we can imagine that it's the same case with Kerbals.

Also because it was the developer's intention to give us manned flight before probes.

[Sirrobert]

Get lost with your realism, this is a game.

And if you DO want to compare it to something on that alternate dimenion that you call Earth, compare it to the dawn of Flight. Wright brothers stuff. Everything manned first. Why? Because manned is alot easier than remote controlled. And thus manned comes before remote controlled

[richiespeed13]

Thanks for the replies. Some of your points do make a lot of sense.

I guess the fact that we are controlling Kerbals, who seem to have appeared magically on some planet, with nothing but a space center to their names, would kind of rule out the "realism" part.

However, like many, although I love the Kerbals, I do like trying to replicate real space programs as much as possible. After all, I am interested in human space exploration, not Kerbalian.

It's no big deal at all though, if you look at it from the perspective of a species that has not built a car, or a plane, or that even has a civilization, perhaps going manned first isn't so bad...

Either way I will continue to have endless fun, but just a thought of mine.

[regex]

I much prefer sending Kerbals whenever possible. Probes are kind of cheaty.

[allmappedout]

It's a tough one because at the minute I feel like we get to space too easily (at least, once you know what you're doing). I feel like science early on should be a bit harder to earn, because none of the steps between going to space and building a rocket are tested. I know it's obviously the Kerbal way, but maybe if/when missions appear, there will be a bit of a possible structure to follow (ie: fly a suborbital flight, test control surfaces, test unmanned rockets (ie: just with a remote guidance unit or something), etc), because, as Scott Manley and others have proven, once you've gotten Tier 1 science, you can pretty much go whereeever you want to. The beauty of Sandbox is that if you know what you're doing, nothing is difficult; the problem with career is that if you know what you're doing, nothing is difficult!

Maybe I'm too attached to the idea ofhaving lots of little milestones, but the idea of saying "this is the first thing to leave the atmosphere in Kerbal history. Oh, and by the way I also went to the Mun, planted a flag and came back at the same time" sort of devalues the achievement factor of doing something for the first time.

Speak to a lot of people who have played the game for a long time, and they will say that the first time they made it to orbit is one of their best memories. I guess I want career to bring back that feeling of achievement. To do that, I feel like being able to have a milestone like that, which is then subsequently superceded by 'first Kerbal in space', etc.

But that's just me!

[Cordeos]

I much prefer sending Kerbals whenever possible. Probes are kind of cheaty.

How are Probes cheatly? They exist in real life and are an integral part of space flight.

[Sirrobert]

It's a tough one because at the minute I feel like we get to space too easily (at least, once you know what you're doing). I feel like science early on should be a bit harder to earn, because none of the steps between going to space and building a rocket are tested. I know it's obviously the Kerbal way, but maybe if/when missions appear, there will be a bit of a possible structure to follow (ie: fly a suborbital flight, test control surfaces, test unmanned rockets (ie: just with a remote guidance unit or something), etc), because, as Scott Manley and others have proven, once you've gotten Tier 1 science, you can pretty much go whereeever you want to. The beauty of Sandbox is that if you know what you're doing, nothing is difficult; the problem with career is that if you know what you're doing, nothing is difficult!

Maybe I'm too attached to the idea ofhaving lots of little milestones, but the idea of saying "this is the first thing to leave the atmosphere in Kerbal history. Oh, and by the way I also went to the Mun, planted a flag and came back at the same time" sort of devalues the achievement factor of doing something for the first time.

Speak to a lot of people who have played the game for a long time, and they will say that the first time they made it to orbit is one of their best memories. I guess I want career to bring back that feeling of achievement. To do that, I feel like being able to have a milestone like that, which is then subsequently superceded by 'first Kerbal in space', etc.

But that's just me!

Yes, I agree. Being very good at this game should be punished! How there they be so good that they can do whatever they want with only a few parts

The people who can do what you discribe get 0 sense of achievement from getting into orbit, since they already did it billions of times. Stop trying to force them to follow your own game path

[regex]

How are Probes cheatly? They exist in real life and are an integral part of space flight.

Well, they're lighter and take less resources (I play with a life support mod since, IMO, it's stupid not to). They're also not very "Kerbal" and that's one of the things I like about this game: the progression isn't human progression, it's Kerbal progression. This is "Kerbal Space Program", after all.

[gtmattz]

The way I see it is that Kerbals developed probes as a result of a shortage of crew caused by their earlier methods.

[LethalDose]

Basically, I think for the sake of realism, it would be better if we started with unmanned rockets in the beginning of our careers, sending them into orbits, even to the Mun, and slowly "learning" about space and space ships. After enough unmanned science is earned, it would then be a good time to unlock the first single Kerbal pod, and we can begin our journeys into Kerbaled space missions.

As far as realism goes, I think it's an issue of perspective. Starting with kerbaled missions is reasonable place to start if the purpose of the game is getting kerbals into space.

In my perspective, the game starts in a place similar to the start of Project Mercury: At the start of career mode, We have functional rockets engines and fuel. In fact, I've used the LV-30 through most of my career mode. So, in theory, the kerbals have some handle on rocket design and construction at the start of the game, and are ready to start launching little green men into space.

And personally, I think the game plays better starting at that point, than it would starting at an earlier point prior to being able to launch kerbals into space.

[Moar Boosters]

The first attempt at spaceflight was a manned craft. In the 16th century a Chinese guy supposedly strapped a bunch of rockets to a chair, and lit the fuses. A true Jebediah if ever there was one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wan_Hu

[Scrogdog]

This is "Kerbal Space Program", after all.

Aye, but it's not run by a Kerbal.

[NASAFanboy]

It's fully possible.

You can do the science around Kerbin first and do high-atmosphere supersobic flights.

That's realistic and helps you unlock the probes first, and that's what I do.

[Liowen]

Aye, but it's not run by a Kerbal.

True it is run by a homicidal maniac, but that is another story...

[regex]

Aye, but it's not run by a Kerbal.

You can do the science around Kerbin first and do high-atmosphere supersobic flights.

That's realistic and helps you unlock the probes first, and that's what I do.

Exactly. text

[Dwight_js]

I'm sure there will be an abundance of alternate career tech-trees. There is already one that forces you to start with airplanes and explore Kerbin for your science. I also think that we have to remember that we only have one basic aspect of career mode so far - science - and it's not even in its final iteration yet. Money and other resources will make it more difficult to get into space and just go wherever you please.

Mods will help to modify the challenge and extend the life of career mode substantially - alternate tech trees, communications delays to unmanned probes (remote tech), tweaking the location and abundance of resources (possibly a future mod), changing the cost of parts. I don't think that people will play through one career mode, then shelve the game when it's done. I think they will play through one career mode structure, then load some mods to create a different career challenge, then another, and so on.

[Vanamonde]

Get lost with your realism, this is a game.

Let's watch the attitude, please. A simple, "I disagree and here's why... " would get the point across without making enemies of fellow players.

[SkyRender]

Kerbals have always been painted with a different sort of brush than we humans are. When we first went into space, we were hesitant, unsure if it was even possible, and laden with issues surrounding the process. The Kerbals, by contrast, are 100% behind the concept and cannot wait to get into space. They clearly have some good engineering instincts and can adapt rapidly on the fly, but their enthusiasm leads them to want to send manned pods up right away. They've always sort of reminded me of little kids playing at going into space in a cardboard box, only instead they have real working rocket parts and the actual means to attain their goal. They start at a different point than we do: not with doubts and cautious advances due to political and social pressures, but with gusto and excitement to find out what lies beyond their atmosphere.

Kerbals are explorers at heart, and nothing holds them back. If you want to imitate human space flight advancement order in KSP, sandbox is the best way to do it, because Kerbals are not human. It makes more sense to role-play as a Kerbal than as a human, as we know exactly what path we go down with the latter. In the former, however, lies endless possibility for excitement and discovery.

[Javster]

There is another thread about this, but the basic message is that probes are more complex to operate, especially to a new player.

[Seret]

There is another thread about this, but the basic message is that probes are more complex to operate, especially to a new player.

This. The overriding principle of the tech tree isn't to mirror human history. It's to provide progressive disclosure of the parts. Hence some of the choices that seem a little wacky at first, like rockets coming before aircraft and manned flight before probes.