Just what is the community to SQUAD?

[quasarrgames]

So much bitterness... I haven't seen such an outpouring of negativity from this community in a very long time. Not since 0.19 was released, I believe!

I admit that I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but from what I can tell, SQUAD does listen to their audience. They also pay attention to what their audience does, which is more important. A handful of us raising a huge stink about the direction the game is going in tells them that their most vocal fans are upset, and they know this is not a good thing. But at the same time, they can't make split-second decisions that fundamentally alter the direction of the product just based upon that. That's how games get stuck into ever-tighter niches, and it's a trap that they very nearly fell into when resources were being implemented to begin with. Resources are absolutely something which a chunk of the fanbase wants, and those of us in that chunk aren't quiet about it.

But here's the thing: we aren't the majority. We only were the majority for a fairly brief time. Those of us who really are great at the game, and who make up the most dedicated part of the fanbase, represent perhaps 10% of the people playing the game at most. SQUAD knows this. But they also know that we are some of their most important community members too. I could see how much it hurt Felipe to tell us during the ending of KerbalKon that resources had been sidetracked. He knew we weren't going to take that well. He knew we weren't going to agree with his message. But he also counted on us being mature about it, and taking things to the next obvious step: to accept the new course that the game is taking, and to take matters into our own hands by making a mod to implement the functionality we want on our own. The tools for doing so in the stock game have been only increasing with each new iteration since 0.19, and with 0.23, most of the biggest hurdles to that goal have been removed for us.

Let us prove that we are the great community we're often lauded to be, and take this new development maturely. The community, to SQUAD, is everyone who plays KSP, not just the most vocal players. And we, the most vocal players, must respect that by showing SQUAD that we are willing to accept their choices and strive onward to get what we want by our own hands with the tools they have given us to do so. We owe it to them to not become the sort of unpleasant monsters that usually show up and divide a community due to a controversial decision by the developers. We're better than that.

You are right about everything you said, good sir. Squad does all this stuff because they care about us the game-players and our opinions of the game. As far as i know, notch never had a weekly newsletter, or a yearly livestream where the devs got together and discussed their magnificent game. That worked out fine, for a while.

I think the gaming industry has proved that a game can only go so far on its own. Take pretty much every game and every sequel of every game EA ever made. Eventually it runs out of steam without the support of its community. Squad realizes this, and that's why they mad the game an open-source beta in the first place. SQUAD cares about us because we are what will make them, KSP, and any other games they make great.

However, they need some reasoning of their own, or else the trolls and crazy people will get the upper hand, and the game will become mundane and limited in enjoyment and potential. This is why i think squad is doing the right thing in terms of their community involvement.

[Kurtvw]

Your second paragraph is not relevant. It seems readily apparent there is no development path (optimal or otherwise) in place. The huge turnarounds (No multiplayer, don't even ask.....oh ok multiplayer is in now. Look at this resource map and drill models to get them...coming soon.....wait resources are not happening) demonstrate this clearly.

A clear plan would negate these issues. Massive "sea changes" and scattershot approaches do not.

You do realize that this is being dev'd by a group of dudes that thought it'd be cool, right? Not a group of dudes that works for Microsoft.

Yes, they are making some money, but I doubt very much that any of these guys is getting rich. They are doing this as best as they can.

[SkyRender]

Ok, pardon me here, but I've read this thread, and I still have no idea what the heck is going on. Some people are ticked. I catch that. But why? Is it because things aren't being done fast enough? The right things aren't being done first? Progress is still being made, as far as I'm seeing anyway, and whether or not the specific things I want done are being done next is of small concern to me. I see they're working, I see they're adding things, and I am content.

I suppose I'm just going to summarize and say I don't get the angst suddenly flying around.

"It's complicated" is the short version. If you'd like the somewhat longer but still summarized version, read on.

Back when 0.19 was in development, SQUAD revealed that they were developing a complex and interesting expanded resource system that would give players something do to on planets besides just wander about on them. There was a lot of excitement, and many of us got very hyped. But 0.19 came out without this system, and we were told that it was on the back burner. There was some grumbling for a while (and an outcry not unlike this latest one, but somewhat tamer overall), and we settled down and accepted the promise that resources were coming "eventually".

KerbalKon 2013 ended with the dual announcements that resources were not going to be developed as had been promised back during 0.19 and that multiplayer would be a major focus once the game was scope-complete. To a lot of those of us who were around back when 0.19 was in development, this felt like a betrayal. And so, this has led to this sudden burst of discussion, debate, argument, and assumption concerning what this means for Kerbal Space Program's future.

[Vanamonde]

This is a horrible mentality to have

To repeat, it is no more and no less than the terms you agreed to when you bought the game.

Unless they're flat out... directly insulting people

They were.

[Stargate525]

Ok, pardon me here, but I've read this thread, and I still have no idea what the heck is going on. Some people are ticked. I catch that. But why? Is it because things aren't being done fast enough? The right things aren't being done first? Progress is still being made, as far as I'm seeing anyway, and whether or not the specific things I want done are being done next is of small concern to me. I see they're working, I see they're adding things, and I am content.

I suppose I'm just going to summarize and say I don't get the angst suddenly flying around.

I don't quite get it either. Which is why I made the thread. I'm not trying to be angry or attacking anyone, especially SQUAD, I'm just honestly trying to figure out whether I have any reason to think that I, or anyone, should be heard here, and whether 'they don't have to listen to us, be grateful for what they do already' is a valid argument.

[Whackjob]

Where did they announce resources weren't coming in? Did I miss this? Is this confirmed, or is this espoused by the peanut gallery?

[I_Killed_Jeb]

You do realize that this is being dev'd by a group of dudes that thought it'd be cool, right? Not a group of dudes that works for Microsoft.

Yes, they are making some money, but I doubt very much that any of these guys is getting rich. They are doing this as best as they can.

This is another point to remember. Though I'm more of the "bring resources back" camp as well as the "please don't sacrifice quality for the sake of easy $" camp, I'm thrilled for the squad guys to hopefully make tons and tons and tons of money off of KSP. It's a great game, or at least has the potential to be (which is why we're so wound up about all this), and they deserve to be rewarded, certainly more than the studios pushing out drivel like COD and BF4

[Stargate525]

Where did they announce resources weren't coming in? Did I miss this? Is this confirmed, or is this espoused by the peanut gallery?

I've not seen it definitely one way or the other. Some are saying they're canned, others are saying they're still on the back burner.

[PDCWolf]

'they don't have to listen to us, be grateful for what they do already'

I don't really get this one. It's not like they are gifting me something. I agreed to them being able to pull a notch and already gave them my money, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to fight for what I want or criticize them for doing something wrong. This mentality is just getting yourself in doggie position just in case. Either you don't value your (or whoever it was) money or you like to live in mediocrity and accepting everything that is thrown at you, even if they make you pay for it.

If the game was free on the other hand then yeah, I wouldn't even bother posting, except to post my parts or share something with the community.

[SkyRender]

Where did they announce resources weren't coming in? Did I miss this? Is this confirmed, or is this espoused by the peanut gallery?

It was announced, as I mentioned, long ago in the time when 0.19 was being developed. Unfortunately, back in April of this year, the forums and blogs all got tanked by DDoSers and all content between October 2012 and April 2013 was lost. That included literally everything that had been said about the expanded resource system.

[SlinkyBlue]

You'd think that Squad would have some sense of loyalty to the community that is responsible for creating an environment that propelled them into the spotlight.

[Stargate525]

It was announced, as I mentioned, long ago in the time when 0.19 was being developed. Unfortunately, back in April of this year, the forums and blogs all got tanked by DDoSers and all content between October 2012 and April 2013 was lost. That included literally everything that had been said about the expanded resource system.

He's not asking when they were first mentioned, he's asking when and how it was announced, or if it was announced, that they were cancelled.

[Tiberion]

I understand. I know that we won't get responded to until at least tomorrow. I was just pointing out that we should be acknowledged and responded to at some point in time, which I also agree that we will be.

Why?

No really, why are you owed a response over this issue? Why is this issue more deserving of a response that people who have posted requesting new aerodynamic models, or bigger part sizes, or the multitude of other complaints and suggestions that come in each and every day? because instead of 5 or 6 people asking about it, its 20 or 30 (or a hundred or 200)

Is it because these threads have been more noisy, negative and disruptive than normal? What makes this issue extra important?

The postponement of resources is not new news. It happened in June during the ramp up to 0.20 and they shifted the focus to career mode. They NEVER promised it was coming back at any specific date or after something was finished. The only change is they now say it could end up being different than what we saw on those charts. And they announced that another new feature was on the board, one that was way more requested than resources (which quite frankly came out of nowhere, and was in response to.. yep.. another mod that had demonstrated cool gameplay possibilities)

Oh, and this same sort of forum riot occured when resources were announced... on the other side. People that thought it was a waste of time, coming too early, was too wide in scope, whatever.

That is why you can't speak for the community in ANY capacity. Because the "community" holds all possible opinions on any matter all at the same time. They will NEVER please everyone, and they don't owe everyone who is upset about an announcement an explanation.

If its any consolation, Squad is usually very open about these things and you'll get one anyway. But it doesn't come from a place of being entitlement.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Tiberion

[SkyRender]

He's not asking when they were first mentioned, he's asking when and how it was announced, or if it was announced, that they were cancelled.

Ah, of course; my apologies. At the end of KerbalKon 2013, during the closing ceremonies, Felipe made the announcement. You can see it here.

[Stargate525]

I don't really get this one. It's not like they are gifting me something. I agreed to them being able to pull a notch and already gave them my money, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to fight for what I want or criticize them for doing something wrong. This mentality is just getting yourself in doggie position just in case. Either you don't value your (or whoever it was) money or you like to live in mediocrity and accepting everything that is thrown at you, even if they make you pay for it.

Neither do I, hence the thread.

I don't tend to post in these sorts of forums either unless I am very invested in the game, and I do my utmost not to post things without the mindset of trying to make things better.

[Kurtvw]

Neither do I, hence the thread.

You keep saying that, but it really does seem like you started this thread simply to start a riot.

Devs have been very upfront that this game is going to progress however it happens to progress - and that they are interested in Community input and not bound to it...

So, Stargate, instead of feigning innocence, maybe you just tell us your real intent here? Looking for reputation (hehe), looking for an active thread? What? Really, seriously... what does any of this accomplish other than starting a flame war? (and this is why I called you a troll earlier, so I really would like to know).

[I_Killed_Jeb]

You keep saying that, but it really does seem like you started this thread simply to start a riot.

Devs have been very upfront that this game is going to progress however it happens to progress - and that they are interested in Community input and not bound to it...

So, Stargate, instead of feigning innocence, maybe you just tell us your real intent here? Looking for reputation (hehe), looking for an active thread? What? Really, seriously... what does any of this accomplish other than starting a flame war? (and this is why I called you a troll earlier, so I really would like to know).

There was an active wide-ranging discussion going on in a different thread but a mod essentially told people to start a new thread, or else. (pretty inappropriate and heavy-handed IMO but oh well)

[Whackjob]

So the impression I'm getting is people aren't seeing updated info about resources, and this means somehow that it isn't going to happen?

Supremely doubtful. Kethane mod is there, and provides an easy system for implementation. If they want resources in ASAP, then all they need to do is mod the mod, and write some backend for doing things with the various materials. Easy-peasy.

I think you worriers can relax. Short of them saying outright they're not going to do it, we're fine. Kick back, take a breather, have a ducknap.

Use a goose if a duck isn't available. This works. You will go from zero to zen in two minutes. Trust the Whack.

Of course, if they do come outright and say that materials gathering isn't coming in, then we've got something to work with. But I'm going to make the point that being irate is not the way to go. You do not help a cause in this manner. You hinder it. You provide an easy datapoint that the only people who want this are jerks. Nobody wants to code for jerks. Ask any EA programmer. They hate it!

Rather, provide instead a detailed explanation of what the game will be lacking sans resources. Back up your argument with facts and solid arguments. This is how you further a cause. This is how you sway people productively and effectively.

Browbeating doesn't work on anyone not in your direct power. So don't do it. And remember... zero to zen in two minutes. I am zen.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

So the impression I'm getting is people aren't seeing updated info about resources, and this means somehow that it isn't going to happen?

Supremely doubtful. Kethane mod is there, and provides an easy system for implementation. If they want resources in ASAP, then all they need to do is mod the mod, and write some backend for doing things with the various materials. Easy-peasy.

I think you worriers can relax. Short of them saying outright they're not going to do it, we're fine. Kick back, take a breather, have a ducknap.

Use a goose if a duck isn't available. This works. You will go from zero to zen in two minutes. Trust the Whack.

Of course, if they do come outright and say that materials gathering isn't coming in, then we've got something to work with. But I'm going to make the point that being irate is not the way to go. You do not help a cause in this manner. You hinder it. You provide an easy datapoint that the only people who want this are jerks. Nobody wants to code for jerks. Ask any EA programmer. They hate it!

Rather, provide instead a detailed explanation of what the game will be lacking sans resources. Back up your argument with facts and solid arguments. This is how you further a cause. This is how you sway people productively and effectively.

Browbeating doesn't work on anyone not in your direct power. So don't do it. And remember... zero to zen in two minutes. I am zen.

The big resources thread has the news. The announcement was that resources is indefinitely shelved, which is generally code for "bye bye"

[PDCWolf]

So the impression I'm getting is people aren't seeing updated info about resources, and this means somehow that it isn't going to happen?

Supremely doubtful. Kethane mod is there, and provides an easy system for implementation. If they want resources in ASAP, then all they need to do is mod the mod, and write some backend for doing things with the various materials. Easy-peasy.

I think you worriers can relax. Short of them saying outright they're not going to do it, we're fine. Kick back, take a breather, have a ducknap.

They said it at the closing ceremony, Resources are either not coming or coming on a very-very simplified form. Look for the video at KSPTV, it's on the 12th minute. They make the announcement and seconds later you can then see harv going very sad and getting teary eyes.

Anyways, you are in the wrong thread if you are talking about resources.

[Whackjob]

The big resources thread has the news. The announcement was that resources is indefinitely shelved, which is generally code for "bye bye"

Ok, which thread and which post?

[OtherDalfite]

You keep saying that, but it really does seem like you started this thread simply to start a riot.

Please do not simply dismiss someone's argument just because their idea is different then yours. He made the thread because FEI told him to.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Ok, which thread and which post?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61297-Resources-postponed-cancelled-or-reserved-for-a-DLC

You'll have to forgive me for being unable/unwilling to sort through 38 pages of posts

[Stargate525]

You keep saying that, but it really does seem like you started this thread simply to start a riot.

I started it to get it off the resources thread, and to get a clear answer on what we are to Squad. No riot intended.

Devs have been very upfront that this game is going to progress however it happens to progress - and that they are interested in Community input and not bound to it...

I'm not saying they are. I'm wondering why when a group is trying to give their input, they're labelled as trolls and bickerers and malcontents.

So, Stargate, instead of feigning innocence, maybe you just tell us your real intent here? Looking for reputation (hehe), looking for an active thread? What? Really, seriously... what does any of this accomplish other than starting a flame war? (and this is why I called you a troll earlier, so I really would like to know).

I'm glad you think me capable of such cat-stroking evil, but I'm not. My honest intent is in the very first post. What people see their role in KSP is, how big our dissent or suggestions should influence the game, and whether we as a community have any right to call them on flip-flopping, pandering, or breaking the vision of the game they have sold us in their dev reports.

Let me re-iterate, I am not ACCUSING them of doing any of those in this thread, regardless of whether I think that they have or not.

[Whackjob]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61297-Resources-postponed-cancelled-or-reserved-for-a-DLC

You'll have to forgive me for being unable/unwilling to sort through 38 pages of posts

Much appreciated! I'll skim through. I can speed read. Give me a couple.