Is it okay if i have the KSP source code?

[Sylandro]

Exactly what the title says.

You see, i'm making a game similar to KSP in unity, and i'm interested in having the source code.

Thanks.

[Murph]

You do know that KSP is a closed-source, commercial product, right?!?

[Themohawkninja]

You do know that KSP is a closed-source, commercial product, right?!?

Going off of this. How are modders able to make such complicated things (most notably the KMP mod) without the source code?

[Murph]

Going off of this. How are modders able to make such complicated things (most notably the KMP mod) without the source code?

They are just clever about using the available APIs, working around limitations in them, and hacking (in the old, honourable, non-evil sense).

[technicalfool]

What Murph says. "Hi Heinz. I'm trying to make baked beans. Would you tell me what the 57 ingredients you use are?"

Same with KFC and their spice mix, or coca cola and their syrup ingredients. They ain't gonna tell ya.

That said, the basis of how KSP does its stuff (patched conics, newtonian physics) is out there and available for anybody with the required Google Fu. If you're a novice programmer, this is probably as much use as having the source to play with, partly because I can imagine KSP has an absolute buttload of source to wade through and some of it is going to be pretty Deep Magic.

I would suggest trying to make something in two dimensions first. Skip the Z component and do everything in X and Y with flat polygons. It'll be a lot easier than jumping into the deep end and trying to do full 3D convex-hull collision and all the rest of the brain-busting math and reality compression that goes along with a game like this.

[technicalfool]

Going off of this. How are modders able to make such complicated things (most notably the KMP mod) without the source code?

With an API. Your code calls "returntype function_name(param1, param2, ..., paramN)", and gets a result. It doesn't have to know how function_name works. Sort of like how Google let you do all sorts with their APIs, but you don't need to have a copy of their secret sauce on hand to use them.

DISCLAIMER: I have written no KSP mods. Yet.

Edited December 22, 2013 by technicalfool

[Nao]

This thread has made me realize KSP forums are really quite serious, normally i would made "ROTFL" upon seeing such request but I'm giving "Good luck with your project!" instead <3

[Amram]

Going off of this. How are modders able to make such complicated things (most notably the KMP mod) without the source code?

How can any piece of software be made without the source code to the operating system which will execute it?

The API's provide a line of communication between the plugin and the executable itself. Without the communication you have two isolated programs and neither can influence the other. if the Dev's had never provided that open door, there would be no plugins like KMP, MechJeb, FAR, RSS, simple as that.

the very simple descriptions of how it all works, in 5 sentences, is this:

KSP executes the plugin

The plugin does some work, decides what it wants to know, and it asks KSP for that info

KSP replies with that info

the plugin does more work, decides what it wants to do with that info, and tells KSP what to do

KSP does as told.

The API's bridge the gap, they enable the communication, and allow the Plugins to operate KSP, like a rider on a horse. The horse will do as it will, until commanded otherwise in a way it understands. Give it commands it doesn't understand and you will not get what you want from it. Those commands in this case, are the API. Know what function to use, and how to use it, and you'll make progress. Don't know which function, or how to use it, or it doesn't exist.......

That's modding KSP with Plugins through the API's in a nutshell. The source code just doesn't factor into it.

Sylandro, im about as certain of this as I can be of anything other than that I will someday die:it will not be okay for you to have the source code now, or sometime in the near future. Squad is making their money off of that code, and it would be a very poor choice to willingly give it away at this stage.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Amram

[Nuke]

commercial closed source games go open source all the time. but usually not until after they have been completed and profits taper off. this usually happens if a game has a huge community built around it. is a good alternative to continuing support on an old game, just let the community do it for you. they also get the code so they are free to add features and fix bugs, and you help educate the next generation of game devs. its a win win all around. its something to think about for the future. many games have done this, doom, quake (i think all idtech engines except the latest are now open source), freespace 2 (still being updated and modded 12 years later), descent 1 and 2, mech commander 2, and on and on and on. you release the code under a license so it still belongs to squad, but you can look at it, modify it, and compile your own version of the game.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Nuke

[Murph]

commercial closed source games go open source all the time. but usually not until after they have been completed and profits taper off. this usually happens if a game has a huge community built around it. is a good alternative to continuing support on an old game, just let the community do it for you. they also get the code so they are free to add features and fix bugs, and you help educate the next generation of game devs. its a win win all around. its something to think about for the future. many games have done this, doom, quake (i think all idtech engines except the latest are now open source), freespace 2 (still being updated and modded 12 years later), descent 1 and 2, mech commander 2, and on and on and on. you release the code under a license so it still belongs to squad, but you can look at it, modify it, and compile your own version of the game.

Sure, and I certainly hope that Squad are cool enough to do just that years in the future, after KSP has reached the natural limit of its commercial success.

[jwenting]

sheesh, the gall... "I'm trying to make something in direct competition to your product, please make it for me and then give it to me for free so I can take all credit without having to put in any effort"...

[kiwi1960]

"Sure, and I certainly hope that Squad are cool enough to do just that years in the future, after KSP has reached the natural limit of its commercial success. "

As is that will ever happen... right?

[regex]

3/10, but only because of the audacity of the request.

[Nao]

commercial closed source games go open source all the time. but usually not until after they have been completed and profits taper off. this usually happens if a game has a huge community built around it. is a good alternative to continuing support on an old game, just let the community do it for you. they also get the code so they are free to add features and fix bugs, and you help educate the next generation of game devs. its a win win all around. its something to think about for the future. many games have done this, doom, quake (i think all idtech engines except the latest are now open source), freespace 2 (still being updated and modded 12 years later), descent 1 and 2, mech commander 2, and on and on and on. you release the code under a license so it still belongs to squad, but you can look at it, modify it, and compile your own version of the game.

Unfortunately things have changed and releasing the source code isn't practiced anymore. I'm sure thou that the recent success of many sandbox games, means we will get some competition to KSP, (like OrbiterSpaceProgram or MinecraftSpaceProgram ) and maybe even KSP2 after some more years.

With both the budgets going up (including kickstarters, and early access sales) and more advanced game engine toolkits being developed and sold at lower prices, the need for some "original code to build upon" is diminishing anyways.

[MR4Y]

And...we meet the first myth of open source, which is the wrong assumption that you can't make money from a product in which you have access to it's source code. I wonder how RedHat Enterprise Linux still makes money to this day, regardless of a free version of it compiled from the source code already made(CentOS).

[Murph]

And...we meet the first myth of open source, which is the wrong assumption that you can't make money from a product in which you have access to it's source code. I wonder how RedHat Enterprise Linux still makes money to this day, regardless of a free version of it compiled from the source code already made(CentOS).

RedHat make money out of service and support for the corporate market, and they didn't have any choice in being open source, as their product was already open source before they started. That model (service and support) would not be a profitable fit for something like KSP, and there's little to no incentive right now for the copyright holder to open the door.

[pigletx2]

Hopefully, in the future, they will release the source code, but not anytime soon. And most likely, you wont be able to use it for profit, just to make extensive mods and to update the game after Squad stops development and moves on to KSP2 (Attack of the Kraken?).

Edited December 22, 2013 by pigletx2

[MR4Y]

And you guys may seem to forget one thing. Even if you had a KSP source code, every other aspect of the game is copyrighted.

[technicalfool]

And you guys may seem to forget one thing. Even if you had a KSP source code, every other aspect of the game is copyrighted.

Indeed. The earlier Id Software engines are open source. However, none of the assets are. You can play with the engine source as much as you like, but don't even think of copying those copyrighted .wad files around.

That said, I disagree with the comment that nothing is open sourced any more. Pretty much any project that has been out for a long while and the income from it has tapered to near zero is a candidate for throwing open to the public to play with. In Id's case, it's generally a bit of good karma and some advertising for their next-level engine.

[kiwiak]

Thats another possibility, source code can just be leaked into net by someone

I wonder what woudl be consequences for squad.

[technicalfool]

Thats another possibility, source code can just be leaked into net by someone

I wonder what woudl be consequences for squad.

Probably not much, however there could be grave consequences for anybody caught using said source code in their own products.

[jwenting]

and of course the pirate would also need to pirate Unity... And the makers of Unity no doubt can afford to hire far more expensive lawyers in far more countries for far longer to make the life of that pirate extremely miserable. I hope anyone who tried gets sued into poverty they never climb out of.

[kiwiak]

and of course the pirate would also need to pirate Unity... And the makers of Unity no doubt can afford to hire far more expensive lawyers in far more countries for far longer to make the life of that pirate extremely miserable. I hope anyone who tried gets sued into poverty they never climb out of.

Yeah, but woudl leaked source made some direct consequences to squad? I mean its not like people woudl suddenly stop buying ksp.

In long term, someone coudl just copy some of there secred invencions they created and no one else figured out, in his game. Maybe such game woudl become competition or ksp, maybe not. but someone woudl leech of suad work anyway.

From the other hand, insight into source woudl allow modders to make more awesome mods. I dont mean making mods by recompiling it (this woudl probably happen to) just knowing how it all works woudl be very usefull.

[Nuke]

i gotta bring up freespace 2 again. it was not an overnight success when it came out. it ended up paying for itself over the years because of how long the community kept the game alive. initially through mods and later through the source. i doubt they could have done that to the extent they did without releasing its source code. reason is just because you handed over the source to the community, did not mean they had the right to distribute the game's assets. this made ongoing sales of the game possible on sites like gog, since you needed the game assets to play many of the mods. its a way to get a little bit more profit and a lot more life out of something that would otherwise be lost to gaming history.

[Nao]

i gotta bring up freespace 2 again. it was not an overnight success when it came out. it ended up paying for itself over the years because of how long the community kept the game alive. initially through mods and later through the source. i doubt they could have done that to the extent they did without releasing its source code. reason is just because you handed over the source to the community, did not mean they had the right to distribute the game's assets. this made ongoing sales of the game possible on sites like gog, since you needed the game assets to play many of the mods. its a way to get a little bit more profit and a lot more life out of something that would otherwise be lost to gaming history.

They showed source code because the studio was disbanding if i remember correctly. And it was long after the game was released. KSP have a long term development approach so its kind of hard to compare them. That said and considering many other things, I think there would be more good than harm if the source code was leaked right now probably.

Also while FS2 Legacy is great, does any original creators actually benefit from gog sales?