Details on how the new science works

[PTNLemay]

Sorry if this had been asked a lot, but I'm struggling to understand the finer details of how science works now that 0.23 has seemingly made it... harder. I like a good challenge but I'm hitting a bit of a road-block so to speak in my primary game world.

The game has biomes that can give each scientific part a given amount of science, I get that. So say I visit the Highlands of Minmus, using the goo canister. Say it gives me a potential total of 100 science. Transmitting it only gives me 40% of that potential science. What does the new 3 ton processing lab do, exactly? Does it increase that total 100 science, or does it increase the 40% that I can transmit back home? Because if it's the former, doesn't that mean that every experiment I perform without the processing lab means I've permenantly lost potential science?

Also, in my pic here: http://i.imgur.com/maUDn8E.png I'm trying to use the 9001 unit to experiment over Minmus. I did it once, processed it, and transmitted a small percentage of science. Then did it a second time, processed it, but now the transmission value has dropped to zero. I thought that the processing lab was meant to give me the ability to continue performing lots of experiments (science spamming, to a point). Am I missing something? Or is the only way to recover those 76 science points to bring the sample back home. And if that's the case, what is the 3-ton processing module good for exactly?

[KittyProgram]

It's not good for anything. period.

[Snarfster]

I use it on a station orbiting Minmus. A lander goes down to visit a biome, gather science, flies back to the station. Then all science is removed by EVA and stored in a lander which will return to Kerbin.

The lab is then used to clean the experiments so the lander can be used for the next biome.

[r4pt0r]

what is suggested is to get a lab module in orbit, then keep rendezvousing, refueling, and depositing science to the module. then reset the lab and goo, and get science from another biome. once you got it all, grab all 40 whatever science reports and get back to kerbin.

(i type slowly and get ninja'd)

[PTNLemay]

But... why is that 9001 unit telling me it can only transmit 0% of the science it has stored, even after I've processed it?

If it does that, why even rendez-vous with the processing lab, why not just stick parachutes on all your science units and send them back to kerbin for 100% of the science?

[Snarfster]

Because by cleaning the science units after taking the science out, you can re-use them and use one lander to visit more than one biome. (Without having to have loads of goo containers etc on it.)

So, several missions from the station to minmus, every time you store the stuff in a return ship, then make one trip back instead of having to send a lander for each biome.

[Superfluous J]

A lander with a goo pod and science jr will weigh a ton or more. Let's say you can get it down to a ton. So to do transmittable science in 5 biomes, that would cost you 5 tons. With the science bay, it will cost you 4.5 tons. Any less than 5 biomes and it's not worth it.

The big problem with science bay is it's purpose seems to be exactly opposite the rest of the thrust of the game. Either you want to send probes one way because it's cheaper and quicker but gets you less science, or you want to send Kerbals because you want to take the time to get a lot of science and bring it home. The mobile lab allows you transmit a lot of the "less science" but you still gotta bring it home, so you'll want to be bringing back a lot of science with you which the lab doesn't allow for.

So after using it once I think I'll skip it on future missions.

Also, it takes a LONG time (in sit-and-wait-while-nothing-happens terms) to process the data and scrub the containers. I thought Squad said they weren't going to add anything that "takes time"? Transmitting already takes a little time, and this takes a lot. I'm wondering if the next science addition will require multi-minute waits.

[PTNLemay]

But I'm going to have to bring the science modules back anyway, since the transmission doesn't work anymore. Even with the processing lab.

Either I send the 1 ton lander to the moon, do science, and get it all the way back to Kerbin. Or I send the 1 ton lander to the moon, PLUS a 3 ton processing lab, do the science, and get the lander all the way back to Kerbin. In what way is it different aside for me dragging a huge lab along for the ride? I'm sure I'm missing something that would enable me to transmit the science points, but I can't figure out what it is. I'm not missing antennas or anything, nor is the problem lack of power.

EDIT: This is what's troubling me: http://i.imgur.com/1mTKMyp.png The fact that I can't transmit the science anymore. The whole point of the processing lab is that I can reuse the experiment units, right? Well I can't reuse anything if the science is stuck before it can be transmitted. And I can't move onto the next experiment until the science has been transmitted. If I can't do either the only thing to do is bring the whole thing back to Kerbin.

Edited January 5, 2014 by PTNLemay

[Vanamonde]

Improving the transmission rate is only one of the lab's functions. After you perform an experiment, you can clean the instrument and use the green clipboard button to store the science in the lab. Then take the instruments to another biome, use the cleaned instrument to perform another experiment, and store that result in the lab. Etc. Storage is the lab's biggest advantage.

[Vorg]

I'm a bit confused about the lab also. Do you have to move the experiments by EVA even when both the lab and the Jr are part of the same ship? I built a ship to send to Minmus but while still in orbit at Kerbin I tried the Jr and it picked up a bit more. I ran it through the lab and saved it for when I return to Kerbin, but when I reset the Jr, it deletes the experiment.

[Superfluous J]

But I'm going to have to bring the science modules back anyway, since the transmission doesn't work anymore.

I know your pain. Like I said, you have 2 choices without the lab:. Transmit for less science quickly (so you can unlock tech tree nodes quicker) or put lots of work into getting full (or nearly full) science by bringing stuff home.

With the lab, you get a strange combination of those two choices: You only get the science from a one-way mission, but you have to plan for a return trip.

I don't know at what point the mission would pay off from a payload-size perspective, but you'd need to replace at least 5 small landers to do so. And those landers need to be able to take off again and redock with your station. Really it just seems better all around to either transmit from the surface and then mark that probe as done and dead, or do a full-on manned mission and send a ton of science home.

Or, once you've got your science probe lifted off from Tylo, use a relatively small amount of dV to send it home on its own, bypassing the entire argument and getting a TON of science for it.

[PTNLemay]

So... just to make sure my game's not bugged and this is actually how it works (and that I understand this properly).

I transmit a first time for around 30%, then clean it with the processing lab and do a second run giving me 3% transmission, clean it again and run it a third time for 0% transmission. Is it like that for every planet? The runs I did were on Minmus.

[DMagic]

Are you talking about doing the same experiment, on the same biome multiple times?

I believe this was intentionally removed in 0.23, all experiments have a science value cap. The goo canister in particular has a base return of 10 science value with a cap of 13, so it can only be used twice per planet/biome. Resetting the experiment with the lab just lets you use the part again, on a different biome or planet.

[Semtex89]

Yeah, each experiment on each biome/world has a science cap. Cleaning equipment simply lets you perform experiments with the equipment over again.

[PTNLemay]

It's in the same biome yes (low orbit over minmus) and with the same experimental unit (the 9001 Jr). But after I clean it using the big lab and run through it again the transmission value drops like a stone. From around 30% on the first run, then 3%, then zero. Though I suspect I did something wrong. I still had 76 science in that experiment and I couldn't transmit it. In the end I sent the whole ship back to kerbin and parachuted the experiment down to the surface.

I understood that the science cap meant the total amount of science you can get in this situation. So if the experiment originally has 100 science points in it, I could transmit it several times to get it in bits and pieces (cleaning the experiment each time using the Big Lab), but here after transmitting just 33% or so, I couldn't transmit anymore.

Edited January 5, 2014 by PTNLemay

[Superfluous J]

It's in the same biome yes (low orbit over minmus) and with the same experimental unit (the 9001 Jr). But after I clean it using the big lab and run through it again the transmission value drops like a stone.

Yup, you got it. You get the most benefit from the lab when you go to different biomes. Which means landing, taking off, and docking a lot for that 30% because Jrs and Goos are only good in "low orbit" or "high orbit" unless they're landed. EVA reports though you can take in orbit over different biomes, so make sure you're taking those.

I still had 76 science in that experiment and I couldn't transmit it. In the end I sent the whole ship back to kerbin and parachuted the experiment down to the surface.

You did probably the best you could. Another use of the lab is to take a reading, transmit it, scrub it, take another reading and send that home. Then you get pretty much full science in one (albeit overly complicated) go.

I understood that the science cap meant the total amount of science you can get in this situation. So if the experiment originally has 100 science points in it, I could transmit it several times to get it in bits and pieces (cleaning the experiment each time using the Big Lab), but here after transmitting just 33% or so, I couldn't transmit anymore.

That is correct. The idea is that eventually you just can't get any more data from transmissions. The scientists at some point need to actually SEE the goo for themselves. I personally like this, it DOES stop the use of (and need for) spamming transmissions that we had in 0.22. But the lab needs a bit of reworking to fit in with the science paradigm they currently have.

[PTNLemay]

You did probably the best you could. Another use of the lab is to take a reading, transmit it, scrub it, take another reading and send that home. Then you get pretty much full science in one (albeit overly complicated) go.

And that gives you more science than just taking the reading without the Lab and sending it directly home? Is that where the +10% +15% comes in when studying the samples in the Big Lab?

Also, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. I know I was repeating myself there for a bit, it was just hard for me to really get my head around it...

[Superfluous J]

And that gives you more science than just taking the reading without the Lab and sending it directly home?

EDIT: I misread your question. The answer is actually YES. You pretty much need to take 3 or 4 experiments home (if you don't transmit anything) to get full science. The first is worth like 75% of the total science for the area. The next is worth like 20%, the next is worth 5 or less, etc. If you transmit first, you get 30%, leaving 70%. If you then send home the same experiment you get 75% of the 70% that's left, or about 52% or so. So instead of the base 75% you get 82%. It's marginal, but it's there. And IMO not worth the work

(old answer that is WRONG. After the "no" all the sentences are correct statements though ) No. It gives you more science than going to one biome, transmitting it, and then being done. And it's lighter than bringing 10 probes and landing them each in one biome, transmitting and being done. But it's not THAT much lighter and it's a lot more of a PITA, which is the problem

Is that where the +10% +15% comes in when studying the samples in the Big Lab?

I didn't use the lab enough to see much benefit from that. I think the way that works is that if you can transmit for 30% and you instead do extra Lab Science to it you can now transmit for 45% (if it's 15% extra) or perhaps 34.5% (15 percent of 30 percent is 4.5 percent). But you have to wait for the very non-exciting percentage counter to count up to 100% and I'd rather steer rockets than watch that.

Also, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. I know I was repeating myself there for a bit, it was just hard for me to really get my head around it...

No problem. It's confusing because it seems like you should get benefits from this extra work that you simply don't.

Edited January 5, 2014 by 5thHorseman