I'm going to get ranty here for a second

[horndgmium]

First of all, I very much understand the desire for new features/parts/functions in the game. It is in development, so we cannot expect everything we want now. Which is fine with me, because many mods fill in these gaps. Some just add fun.

I also understand that people often request these things implemented into the game. I do it too. However, as we know, some features will not be implemented into the game, others are planned, and even more haven't been thought of by the devs yet.

And yes, while many people play stock, that is not for me, because of said mods. Take mechjeb and kethane. Kethane gives me a way to make it home from a mission in different ways (say, without orbital rendezvous) and mechjeb lets me launch a rocket (that I've launched manually a thousand times before) without being there, so I can do whatever else I fancy at the given moment.

This brings me to my concern: stock players seem to abhor the idea of getting handy little mods to do the things they want, and hope the devs implement these things into the game, or ask for them. Is there something that we aren't seeing that you do from way up there on your horse? The things you want, for the most part ALREADY EXIST. Why would you ask for them?

Especially parts. Have you not seen the hundreds of part packs that fill any deficiency you could possible imagine in the game? Get one before you complain the game is missing something. Plugin you think should be in the game? Maybe you should GET IT rather than asking the devs to put it in the game.

And yes, somethings might not have mods. But, mods can be created much more quickly than the devs can respond to your deepest wishes.

So how could you see something wrong with mods? They make up for deficiencies NOW rather than waiting and complaining. They add functions that may or may not even ever make it into the game. They give you new options for gameplay, and you don't even need to add any extra parts. Some just do handy little tricks like show you a landing prediction, or add faster time warp.

The mods, in my opinion, ARE the game, and I have found that after playing without, I do not enjoy the game nearly as much as with mods. There isn't even a satisfaction for me from carrying out rarely successful missions for anyone with only stock parts. Limiting yourself because someone else has it that way is naive and senseless.

If mods do what you want, and you play stock, you have no real complaint. You are only limiting yourself, waiting for things that may never happen to the stock game, and in the process annoying the hell out of everyone who has ever used or created a mod that does exactly what you want.

[sal_vager]

The Squad developers have deliberately opened up KSP to modders, this was not some afterthought, Felipe and the rest know that a game with modding support and a strong modding community can be a greater game than it could be without.

There are some reasons why players might eschew addons though, compatibility of craft files and saves with other players is one, the challenge of accomplishing flights with a restricted feature set is another.

Addons can allow just about anything to be added to the game, and some do see them as a means to "cheat", despite KSP's (currently) single player status and the fact that many addons exist that make the game harder.

People should remember that the way they derive pleasure from KSP, and indeed from other games, is not the same as the next player, who finds other things fun.

As long as you're having fun, then that's great, but there's no need to dictate to others how they should enjoy KSP, stock or modded, it doesn't matter.

Fly your own flight, and let others fly theirs

[Xetalim]

Yes, I agree with this.

[WillHop]

Your view is understandable, and I also play with mods on my save because I think it makes it more fun, but there's no need to start the stock vs mod war, there are enough arguments about Mechjeb alone. People who play stock prefer the stock feel, having a clean install, it lowers the chance of bugs and it allows that person to play the game how the developers made it and not a drop more. I remember starting countless stock only saves and having a great time, and then moving on to mods when I felt it needed it.

And about the stock players who complain about features not in the game that mods add? I don't know how many of these people are out there, but that's their opinion. Playing only stock doesn't make somebody better or worse, just different, which I'm sure those who play stock know. There's no need to try and attack them for this.

[horndgmium]

I want this to be distinct from features that would be awesome to have in the game. While playing stock is definitely a huge thing, and I have no problem with that at ALL, I'm focusing here on players that refuse to stray from stock to grab a feature they want. I on;y made this because I kept seeing it happen.

Sal, stock is great for challenges though, you're right, because of the incompatibility and how everyone must use the same things to achieve a goal. But for the same reason, I don't play that way and don't participate much.

I just don't want people to try to remain devotedly stock when something they want is available now.

[Awaras]

I want this to be distinct from features that would be awesome to have in the game. While playing stock is definitely a huge thing, and I have no problem with that at ALL, I'm focusing here on players that refuse to stray from stock to grab a feature they want. I on;y made this because I kept seeing it happen.

Sal, stock is great for challenges though, you're right, because of the incompatibility and how everyone must use the same things to achieve a goal. But for the same reason, I don't play that way and don't participate much.

I just don't want people to try to remain devotedly stock when something they want is available now.

I agree, especially with mods that do not add any new parts but add so much new functionality such as the kerbal alarm clock, editor extensions, better maneuver nodes, crew manifest, TAC fuel balancer ETC...

Edited January 7, 2014 by Awaras

[Dwight_js]

I use mods because they provide added challenges, but I am also one of the people asking that a number of them be included in the final stock release. Mods are great to add missing content, but ultimately there are a few disadvantages to them that I dislike. With mods, nobody has any obligation to help you if they break, or you can't figure out how to install them. I dislike installing and fiddling with large lists of addons and would just prefer to install a nice clean single core game that contains all the features I'm looking for so I can spend my time playing not troubleshooting.

I understand that not every wish can be granted by the developers, but surely there's no harm in asking for features while the game is still being developed.

[horndgmium]

I understand that not every wish can be granted by the developers, but surely there's no harm in asking for features while the game is still being developed.

Absolutely. Asking for features opens up the devs to that they exist as well as that they are good. Many mods (IMO) SHOULD be implemented into the game, so I understand when people ask for such features (FAR for example. It maybe drives me a little crazy that mass is part of drag/lift). But in the meantime, why not just use FAR?

However, take the new RAPIER. This idea came from a mod part, the SABRE engine. It's now incorporated into the stock game, but does that make it any less of a mod? Even the spaceplane hangar was a mod! Does that mean all spaceplanes are mod craft?

It just kills me that people would rather be stubborn and wait until what they want gets (if ever) implemented into stock, rather than taking advantage of the ingenuity that comes from the community.

[nosscire]

This just out: People on the internet have a different opinion from you.

What makes their opinion any worse then yours? When people ask for things to be put into the core game, it's naturally because they believe it's something everyone would find useful. If asking for things to put into the core game is wrong, then they might just have shipped unity without any game at all. I mean, modders could have added everything!

Asking for something to be added to stock is not wrong. Using mods are not wrong. Asking that some things that already exist in mods to be added to stock is not wrong, and saying that some things do not need to be in stock, as they already exist in mods is also not wrong!

People have different opinions about different things. That is something we just have to live with.

[horndgmium]

This just out: People on the internet have a different opinion from you.

Well yeah, if they didn't I wouldn't have made this post...

This isn't about opinion or right or wrong though. It's stubbornness.

[Superfluous J]

The only reason I know of to stick to stock parts is to participate in challenges. The people who make challenges frequently restrict them to stock parts. My challenges generally allow things like MechJeb but ban things like B9. Why? Because it's impossible to compare 2 ships if one is using B9 aerospace parts and another is using stock parts, or a 6-LVN-in-one they made themselves with a few balance "enhancements" along the way.

But challenges are a (light) version of multiplayer for this game that is inherently single player. When it comes to single player, do anything you want. I personally want to know the dV of every stage of my Eeloo lander before I launch it, because i don't want to get there and go "Oh. I can choose between landing or getting home." Others use MechJeb because they either cannot or don't want to (or both) do something like get into orbit, land, dock, or whatever. Fine. I don't understand it but if that's your thing go for it. Others want tons of parts so they install B9, but I like sticking to the stock parts if for no other reason than it's far easier for someone else to replicate my craft.

tl;dr if more than 1 person is involved, you need to come to a concensus as to what is acceptable and what is not. The simplest way to do that is to restrict to stock.

[JiWint]

well,stock is hardcore i'd say.

Since I have a flag on every planet and moon,I try mods because i'm getting bored

[Garek]

well,stock is hardcore i'd say.

I would respectfully disagree. Although certainly most Mods do make the game "easier" in some respect (mostly less tedious, one could argue), there are some which actually increase the difficulty. E.g. RT2 introduces both the neccessity of a working satellite relay and a control delay which makes stuff like unmanned landings more difficult. Or the Life Support Mods, which introduce basically an additional layer of resource management. Or Deadly Reentry, which can make aerobraking/reentry with big vessels really interesting. Also, most of this is configurable, so one can choose his/her own difficulty. And something like FAR is really mixed up (lower delta-v requirements, but you need to consider aerodynamic stability and stuff).

Disclaimer: I think every game style, every variant of (not) using mods is equally valid, as long as you don't grossly misrepresent your achievments. Which means that I should propably list the (difficulty influencing) mods I'm using in my sig, but well, I'm lazy, and that could be a long and ever changing list. EDIT: added kind of an overview

Edited January 8, 2014 by Garek

[Dwight_js]

Agree with everything, except this:

...saying that some things do not need to be in stock, as they already exist in mods is also not wrong!

People have different opinions about different things.

The developers have stated their vision for the finished game, core game-play elements that fulfill that vision need to be included as stock. I've read where some people have argued that key elements of economy should be left out since they can be modded in - that is just plain wrong.

[Wahgineer]

I think the main reason that many stock people want certain modded features as part of the game is because that mods are very subject to being dropped, outdated, and developed into something totally different. Also, you only have to install one thing, can start playing right away, and don't have to worry about incompatibility.

[JiWint]

-huge snip-

well,some mods include easier gameplay,some mods doesn't.

I was probably talking about over powered mods

[vetrox]

I use a couple of mods and have tried alot of others.

The problem i find with mods is keeping them updated. I personally cannopt be bothered to keep looking for updates. I hope there is a way to have mods auto update themselves in the future.

My least favourite mod when I tried it was b9. And only because of the sheer amount of parts included and navigating through all of them was to tedious for me.

I can also understand why some people want mods included in the game. IT gives them a sense of balance. Modders dont have to make things balanced but if it comes from squad then one would assume it will be balanced with the rest of the parts. So players will feel more content. The other thing is, not everyone even knows about mods. I expect there are alot of people out there buying ksp and quitting after a few hours because they dont know the DV of the ship they are building or because of crummy aerodynamics or whatever.

Plus you dont void your warranty if you leave the game stock

[Javster]

Scenario:

A: I want (feature) in the game NOW!

B: Here's a mod for it

A: But I only play stock!

Is this what you dislike?

[Superfluous J]

Scenario:

A: I want (feature) in the game NOW!

B: Here's a mod for it

A: But I only play stock!

Is this what you dislike?

I do dislike that, but what the OP dislikes (and I do as well the more I think about it and I'm going to watch it in myself going forward) is:

A: I believe this thing should be in the game.

B: But there's a mod for it.

A: I know, but it should still be in the base game.

B: Why? There's a mod.

A: Because it's core functionality that would be better put in the main game, balanced, and other mods won't conflict with it because if they did, they would conflict with the main game.

B: But... Mod. Right here. Don't you see it?

A: I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

B: Mod mod. Mod mod mod. Mod.

I think it's critical that both sides see the other's point of view.

[Dwight_js]

Scenario:

A: I want (feature) in the game NOW!

B: Here's a mod for it

A: But I only play stock!

I have to say that I haven't run into that exact attitude. I've seen people upset because they believed that resource gathering was being dropped from the game entirely, and they weren't happy at the idea that such an important part of the game would be left up to modding.

I can sympathize a little bit with the attitude in the quote above. I use mods for almost everything that I would eventually like to see in the stock game, but for some things I'm just not going to bother. For example, economy mods. Getting the balance for part costing right is a huge job, and I'm not about to go through all of my addon parts and work out how much they should cost, then edit all the necessary config files, play-test, adjust, edit... and so on.

[jwenting]

so according to you, OP, anything that's ever been thought up as a mod MUST be added to the stock game.

Because after all, somebody thinks there's a gap in the stock game there, therefore that gap MUST be closed by Squad.

You can probably see where that'd lead...

[brolgarh]

Game updates, modder is no longer interested/has not time anymore -> bad day for your mod that solves everything, isn't it?

[Holo]

Why is Squad still developing the game if this is true, then?