Map view, satellite mapping and how it should work.

[Capt Snuggler]

Not to say that is wrong simply because it is not realistic, but for your consideration:

In reality no data is lost to background interference, but rather datarate is reduced to ensure no data is lost.

i wasn't trying to imply it was factual. just trying to make each transmitter fill a different role.

In reality the high gain from a dish antenna is not a result of it using more power, but is a result of its shape and size relative to the wavelength of the frequency range that it that is designed for. Such antennas operate not in the UHF range (up to a few GHz) but in SHF and EHF (10's to 100's of GHz).

I'd suggest that if KSP can get something like rocket science largely correct, it would be fitting if it gets related but simpler technology such as electricity and radio communication correct, insofar that it fits with the gameplay.

ok great, i'm glad we cleared that up.

[Majorjim!]

Not to say that is wrong simply because it is not realistic, but for your consideration:

In reality no data is lost to background interference, but rather datarate is reduced to ensure no data is lost.

In reality the high gain from a dish antenna is not a result of it using more power, but is a result of its shape and size relative to the wavelength of the frequency range that it that is designed for. Such antennas operate not in the UHF range (up to a few GHz) but in SHF and EHF (10's to 100's of GHz).

I'd suggest that if KSP can get something like rocket science largely correct, it would be fitting if it gets related but simpler technology such as electricity and radio communication correct, insofar that it fits with the gameplay.

LOL, ok professor.

That's not really Snugglers point but thanks for the science.

[NWM]

+1. I'd like that fog of exploration too. (would give some reason to make satelites)

The dwarfs like Sedna, Makemake, Eris and many distant moons discovered only in space ages!

[Stealth2668]

I agree with this. It would give meaning to satellites and add more depth to the game.

[rextable]

Hi all

I'm a long time player of KSP but have never felt compelled to post on this forum until now – please be gentle )

I'd like to say that I absolutely love the ideas set out in this thread. I had arrived at similar conclusions completely independently while using Scansat and was surprised and delighted to stumble upon this thread. Well done Capt Snuggler for starting it. If something even approximating the features suggested here were implemented I'd be over the Mun... derp.

Some of my own thoughts:

Addressing the issue of realism vs fun: Why not simply make Scansat's (or its stock implementation there of) field of view wider and relax its altitude/inclination requirements? This would greatly reduce the amount of time/effort required both in the game world and in the real one. Doing so would appease the purists need for realism as well as keeping happy those of us who just.... love... scanning for life forms. You precious little life forms..... Where are you? ...EHEM!!! :P

...sorry...

Addressing the issue of integration into the map view: in addition to its map overlay toggles, why not make a scanning mechanic's functions and selectable modes available through a right-click pop-up menu from a satellite's map view icon rather then from the tool bar (stock or otherwise). This would reduce the amount of persistent UI button clutter and integrate the mechanic into the game in deeper way.

Finally: The key to making scanning interesting and satisfying will be in the quality of its map art – they need to be colourful, varied and detailed (IMHO). Furthermore, in addition to the static biome, altimetry, anomaly, heat, resource overlays, dynamic layers displaying graphical representations of numerical game information might further enhance the experience. For example: a colour based overlay that calculates landing site suitability/safety based on information already gathered (because altitude isn't the whole story). Or, one that shows which biomes have been visited and what science has been gathered there. This last one already exists in numerical form over in the tracking building – which requires an immersion breaking exit-and-load cycle in order to access. Why not take that numerical data and display it graphically all in one place – in the map view.

R x

[BriXman]

Yeees... yeees! YES!!!

Great idea, but it should be editable in the difficulty settings. I'd love to plan my landing better instead of just plopping an unmanned lander somewhere, then an unmanned rover somewhere else, then a kerbal somewhere else. To be able to plane it out would be much better, so I could choose a flat, lower area to build my bases on. This would also make a use for probes/manned craft in orbit. Great idea! +1 supporter

[tater]

In a perfect world we'd have this, plus a randomized kerbol system, so that each career could be novel. Regarding scan quality, pointing, etc, its a built in difficulty. Take high res and have a better map, or don't, and wing the landing. Fun either way.

[DBowman]

I really like the 'loss of detail'/'fog of war' + telescopes/surveys aspects.

Above people have suggested various 'overlays' / 'views' of the bodies; height, temp, biome, gravity, IR, etc. I think also a 'slope'/'steepness' overlay would be useful for planing landings.

[Mecripp]

Not sure if it as come up but there is this mod http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/92393-0-24-2-MapResourceOverlay-for-Science-Karbonite-MKS-and-biomes-VERSION-0-2-7 for mapping.

[dtoxic]

Not sure if it as come up but there is this mod http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/92393-0-24-2-MapResourceOverlay-for-Science-Karbonite-MKS-and-biomes-VERSION-0-2-7 for mapping.

clean your inbox it's full

[Moesly_Armlis]

Perhaps a new building, (or in the tracking station) with an "explore planet" feature which would allow a player to view in detail what they have or haven't discovered about a given planet

From my explorations around the KSC, looks to be the observetory in the R&D is a good bet.

Exploration and discovery of celestial objects would add some extra difficulty and wonder. Uncovering or learning the lay of the land has always been interesting in many different game styles. Civilization series comes to mind, planning can be thrown askew once you start to explore.

Even though in KSP all the map data remains constant, there is still way too much left over to explore for each individual. Maybe we can dream of underwater fishing too. Then throw in multiplayer with anywhere construction and suddenly there is an evolving landscape to scope out. Increasing discoveries only points out the scarcity of knowledge.

[mattinoz]

In a perfect world we'd have this, plus a randomized kerbol system, so that each career could be novel. Regarding scan quality, pointing, etc, its a built in difficulty. Take high res and have a better map, or don't, and wing the landing. Fun either way.

Would you even need to Randomize the whole system?

The basic system could be as it is and even a basic major feature map for each of the planets be set in stone.

Then as you employ equipment or spec land kerbals to explore the game would generate finer levels of details and store them for your game.

Players could still share information on getting around the game to explore but each player could have a different experience once they get there.

Could allow the whole system to be scaled to different sizes for different game difficulties as common assets would apply to all scales and the computer would generate the full asset set for the system over time.

Oh yes do really like the idea of having more ways to discover and explore the system, and to me nothing in this would stop the just go and see Kerbal sprite of adventure.

[Moesly_Armlis]

Would you even need to Randomize the whole system?

The basic system could be as it is and even a basic major feature map for each of the planets be set in stone.

Then as you employ equipment or spec land kerbals to explore the game would generate finer levels of details and store them for your game.

Players could still share information on getting around the game to explore but each player could have a different experience once they get there.

The idea of all of us in a multiplayer solar system, exploring. Wonderful. We get the standard map to practice on. But in multiplayer the solar system is different and new. We would all explore and contribute to mapping out the new system.

From the dev notes:

Marco (Samssonart): This week was a busy one, I’ve been helping Chuchito wrap his head around the whole project in order to start implementing his multiplayer client into the game (chill out people, this still doesn’t mean multiplayer is coming out soon-ish).

Multiplayer will draw in new players by the droves.

Exploration is a hype log dosed with liquid schwartz and Capt Snuggler has been presented the match.

[mattinoz]

The idea of all of us in a multiplayer solar system, exploring. Wonderful. We get the standard map to practice on. But in multiplayer the solar system is different and new. We would all explore and contribute to mapping out the new system.

Curious as to what time scale of discovery you would see set in the the random Multi-player system. I mean the main game is set roughly 1960's all the planets were known and sighted by telescope by then but maybe not in high detail. So we start the game now with a fair idea of what is out there at least for our solar system. Would you see a multi-player game in a new system starting much much earlier?

So you need to map the visible planets and use that information to predict the orbits of further out planets.

[AlphaSpartan]

It may have been mentioned but this is a more advanced idea of what the scanSAT mod does - it allows you to build maps of the terrain, and as you advance through the tech tree you can get more advanced imaging systems for more accurate maps with the ground altitude etc.

I think limiting what you see in the KSC until you do a flyby is a very good idea and adds to the exploration feel of the game

[Moesly_Armlis]

The observetory is the focus in a few pictures of the early KSC. Exploration dreams are dancing in my head.

The idea of assembling telescopes is not rocket science. The software that I used was all simple ray tracing. Input refraction coeffcients, curvature type, target wavelengths, abberration correction, focal depth, lens seperation, lens diameter. These are just a few parts to be assembled in the the R&D centre. Upgrayeds to the lab and now launch assembled telescopes into space. Cool. Wonder if altering the VAB/SPH editor might have something to do with it? Or at least allow a modder to add it to the game.

Edited November 9, 2014 by MoeslyArmlis

[AmigoGumball]

What I think would be really nice is that the kerbals might not *completely* understand orbital mechanics from day one, and you would have to pay science/money to get more mathematicians on the job. The basic map wouldn't show things like SOI changes, Closest approaches and AN/DN nodes. This would add great progression to the game combined with having to pay money/science to anlayse mapping data transmitted back from mapping vessels. This makes early game much more strategic and raises questions like "Do I need detailed SOI info to reach the Mün?" Or "Can I afford a biome map of x?"

[Ricardo79]

According to last answer it is not a long dead thread So I might not get penalized for necroing it.

Talking about what should be in the final game is a great topic. So many bright and easy answers I can't stand to pinpoint the must have ones

This could be a fine addition to the game. Just like the "scansat" technology integrated. So I dig it.

All space program should consist a telescope at least. it should be good to do science too.

- - - Updated - - -

It may have been mentioned but this is a more advanced idea of what the scanSAT mod does - it allows you to build maps of the terrain, and as you advance through the tech tree you can get more advanced imaging systems for more accurate maps with the ground altitude etc.

I think limiting what you see in the KSC until you do a flyby is a very good idea and adds to the exploration feel of the game

I don't really think just do a flyby should be reveal as much. (except it is documented (Which could also boost science which is good I think)) But sure for a pilot and only for him (and the current crew perhaps) that should be enought for rough estimations (therefore better details) (even undocumented).

[Moesly_Armlis]

Orbital satellites scanning celestial bodies for resources and biome maps visible in game and now background discovery of asteroids.

This is giving me such a feeling that discovery mechanics might be on the horizon.