[1.10.0] Final Frontier - kerbal individual merits 1.10.0-3485

[Nereid]

Using 0.7.15-1047 for KSP v1.0.2. Today I noticed I lost all my ribbons again like back in 0.90. I unfortunately do not have a backup to compare savefiles and the current log doesn't have any information. I did have a couple of crashes last night when playing, but I've been focused on probes and didn't notice exactly at what point the ribbons were gone.

Sorry to hear that. But it I have the suspicion that crashes are causing this. Maybe the crashes are themself caused by out of memory situations. If this is the case there is nothing I can do about it. Out of memory errors are unpredictable and can cause everything with or without traces in the log.

Sp please take a look of the memory usage of KSP after launching a mission. If it gets over 3 GB we are approaching trouble here.

Unfortunately KSP overwrites the logfile, if KSP gets started and ribbons are lost after the restart. But without a log at the point in time when this happens, I can't nothing do to get any clue what is happening.

Ive played KSP for about 6 hours yesterday (a career) and I reverted a lot. Nothing happened, all is fine.

I have checked the loading/saving methods too and found nothing special (they are in Persistence.cs).

It seems that the bug gets introduced with using the persistence file for saving the ribbon data. We had a few problems before this, but AFAIR all were solved.

So, I have two choices now: keeping it in the persistence file and maybe reworking it (with unpredictable results) or I can switch back to my own saving scheme again (this time its unfortunately more complicated). Or some kind of fallback saving, if the persistence file won't load anything.

At the moment I don't anymore think this bug is caused by FF. Maybe by some "strange" behavior of KSP, maybe crashes. The method other mods were using was not working for me in the previous releases of FF. Maybe this restriction is eased now and I can try it again. But the core of it would be quite similar and I would expect exactly the same problems. Again: If the ribbons gets lost because of a crash, I can't do anything that will solve this completely.

And I have tested a bit: KSP loads an unfinished save file without any visible signs in the game. If the part of FF is not saved, because KSP crashes just before, we will get the save with ribbons (and maybe other things missing). At the time FF can detect that all ribbons were lost, it's to late to do anything. I can display a warning message (and maybe I will add this in the near future). But what should we do then? The logs are gone, the save is lost.

My problem is: I have never faced this so far. But ok, I'm not playing KSP often for hours, just sometimes in between. And I have absolutely no crashes with KSP.

If you want to help me: Use some kind of log rotation, so that the log is renamed before KSP starts.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no experience in handling information being saved in SFS files (neither of my mods handles persistence), so I apologize if I say something that is not correct, but I've noticed that all the mods (KCT, KAC, USI Life Support, Waypoint Manager, etc.) that do not have this problem, AFAIK, are storing their persistence in SCENARIO nodes under the main GAME node. I just wonder if Final Frontier's problems are related to the fact that its persistence is stored under a custom FinalFrontierHallOfFameRoot node as opposed to SCENARIO; it just seems to me that if I were to design a plugin that stores persistence in the save file, I would conform to what others are doing and save that information under SCENARIO. Again I could be completely wrong in what I have said, but I'm trying to help.

Well, I have tried ScenorioModules at first. But because FF was starting that often in previous releases, I was facing several problems which I was unable to solve. I have learned quite a bit in programming for KSP since then, so maybe I will succeed this time. If its only the part of the SFS file, we can try to move the data; that's easy.

EDIT: I will give it a try tomorrow. But without ScenarioModules (if I remember the name of the class correctly) at first.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Nereid

[UAL002]

I personally feel leaving the persistence file as a way to save is a step back. I had more problems with a separate save file.

[Nereid]

I think the same. And it's more problematic now because of the different saves. But again, even if I change this (it will take a day or two), chances are hight, that this will not solve this bug. But the good news: most of the code can be recycled.

I will give it a try tomorrow. Until then: regular backups will solve this problem completely. Multiple saves should do the same.

And I really do not understand why I don't get it myself. Not in my test games and not in my regular one. There must be some kind of pattern, like the "launch without useing the spacebar". Just something I will never do.

EDIT: Hmmm... just examining a part of the code again. There is a missing catch block. If something went terrible wrong during load at this point, we will lose all upcoming data. But all ribbons most times? Hard to believe... Again, a minor potential bug, but I doubt it can cause this...

Edited May 4, 2015 by Nereid

[stevehead]

Sorry to hear that. But it I have the suspicion that crashes are causing this. Maybe the crashes are themself caused by out of memory situations. If this is the case there is nothing I can do about it. Out of memory errors are unpredictable and can cause everything with or without traces in the log.

I should have clarified with my edit at the end of the post that the crashes occurred well before the quicksave and KAC backups that I had mentioned. Basically, I had quicksaved, completed what I wanted to do within about 5 minutes, went to bed, fired up the game earlier today, did what I did that I had mentioned, and the ribbons were gone. I have not had a crash since before that quicksave. So it wasn't a crash that caused the problem.

And also, I really do appreciate the work you are putting into the mod. As for the SCENARIO nodes, I'm merely just stating my observations. KCT and KAC are mods that I have used for a long time, and not once have I lost data with them, and they use the SCENARIO nodes, but I always lose my Final Frontier data at some point.

[Nereid]

Regarding disappearing ribbons(Yes, in 1.0)

I've noticed, when certain mods are added(IE ones that make immediate changes to the sfs file) final frontier gets wiped.

So I'm guessing it has something to do with how FF data is placed in the sfs file and its inability to find it again after small changes are made to the sfs file

If this is true, just storing the data under SCENARIO or anything else won't help. Maybe the events for saving are not triggered. So I will have to rework the load/save and do it like some other mods. And there are a few mods in the list I have never used which could explain why it has not happened to me.

Anyway. We will have to try this. And I cannot promise, that we will get a few new bugs then…

[Drew Kerman]

But it I have the suspicion that crashes are causing this. Maybe the crashes are themself caused by out of memory situations. If this is the case there is nothing I can do about it. Out of memory errors are unpredictable and can cause everything with or without traces in the log.

Was just coming here to report this suspicion as well. I've been dealing with have to just Alt+F4 out of the game due to a non-ending stream of NRE's in my log preventing any sort of save action or return to the space center. I also tipped over my RAM limit once or twice recently. I just checked and the ribbons were gone from my SFS file (no biggie, I run tertiary backups). Honestly, nereid I don't think you should lose time or sleep or whatever over this and just remind people to back their stuff up. It's a good habit to get into anyways!

[stevehead]

I don't think it has to do with crashes. As I said previously, with my initial report of the problem earlier today, I completely forgot about having the quicksave and KAC backups. These contained all my ribbons, and these saves were long after the crashes I had and I haven't had any crashes since those; I've also cleanly exited the game every single time. I agree with Gaiiden, don't stress out over it. I hadn't been doing proper backups like I do with my proper playthroughs since this has been more of a test of mod compatibility, but I am now. I am regularly checking FF now, and if I am to lose my ribbons again, I'll have the log and saves for you to analyze.

[cicatrix]

Is there a planet pack for Outer planets mod?

[Nereid]

Honestly, nereid I don't think you should lose time or sleep or whatever over this and just remind people to back their stuff up. It's a good habit to get into anyways!

Well, you are right. But I have the strange feeling we are facing two problems here: crashes (the could destroy any save and any part of it - unfortunately FF is located at the end of the save file, so way more prone to suffer from crashes) and some strange effect related to some other mods and/or a mistunderstandig of me how KSP react on saves. I do not see another option as to test this.

I got a report of missing/lost progression in KSP that's not related to FF in any way. And it seems that KSP loads an incomplete save file just fine. That was a quite surprising experience....

[adsii1970]

IS there a way we can add a custom ribbon using our own "flag"? One of the things I would like to do is use it for those Kerbals who survive those pesky unsurvivable accidents, if you know what I mean...

[Nereid]

Currently not; or not directly. But there are many custom ribbons for your own usage. If you change the graphics in the folder Gamedata/Nereid/FinalFrontier/Ribons, you can achieve exactly what you wish.

[adsii1970]

Currently not; or not directly. But there are many custom ribbons for your own usage. If you change the graphics in the folder Gamedata/Nereid/FinalFrontier/Ribons, you can achieve exactly what you wish.

Thanks... I'll try that. Is there an overlay you use to give it a "ribbon" look?

[Nereid]

Just an update. I finally got a way to reproduce the issue with the lost ribbons. It's a strange one and it seems it can happen, if you install another mod that writes to the persistent file.

[LOG 19:42:21.488] FF: ignoring load because of game scene MAINMENU

[LOG 19:42:21.492] ScenarioTypes: List Created 14 scenario types loaded from 10 loaded assemblies.

[LOG 19:42:21.510] FF: EventObserver::OnGameStateSave

[LOG 19:42:21.511] FF: Hall of Fame Statistics:

[LOG 19:42:21.512] FF: saving hall of fame (0 logbook entries)

[LOG 19:42:21.512] FF: hall of fame saved in 0ms

For a strange reason the save event is triggered before the game is created and FF loads its data. This happens to me every time, I try to implement a ScenarioModule in FF myself.

---

And now to the important conclusion:

So it seems that adding (!) any kind of mod that uses a ScenarioModule and adds them to the game will trigger a save before the game starts and FF load the ribbons. As long as you do not add such mods after a game with FF was started, you are fine. If you do, you will lose all ribbons (and because of the new interesting mod, the missing ribbons may get unnoticed...).

Well... I think I got the bug.

EDIT: Unfortunately I don't think I can fix this today. This will take a few days longer and it is a little complicated.

[darqen27]

Just an update. I finally got a way to reproduce the issue with the lost ribbons. It's a strange one and it seems it can happen, if you install another mod that writes to the persistent file.

[LOG 19:42:21.488] FF: ignoring load because of game scene MAINMENU

[LOG 19:42:21.492] ScenarioTypes: List Created 14 scenario types loaded from 10 loaded assemblies.

[LOG 19:42:21.510] FF: EventObserver::OnGameStateSave

[LOG 19:42:21.511] FF: Hall of Fame Statistics:

[LOG 19:42:21.512] FF: saving hall of fame (0 logbook entries)

[LOG 19:42:21.512] FF: hall of fame saved in 0ms

For a strange reason the save event is triggered before the game is created and FF loads its data. This happens to me every time, I try to implement a ScenarioModule in FF myself.

---

And now to the important conclusion:

So it seems that adding (!) any kind of mod that uses a ScenarioModule and adds them to the game will trigger a save before the game starts and FF load the ribbons. As long as you do not add such mods after a game with FF was started, you are fine. If you do, you will lose all ribbons (and because of the new interesting mod, the missing ribbons may get unnoticed...).

Well... I think I got the bug.

EDIT: Unfortunately I don't think I can fix this today. This will take a few days longer and it is a little complicated.

So my observations about how the sfs file was being handled were like 90% correct?

Edited May 5, 2015 by darqen27

[Nereid]

So like my research confirmed, I was right.

Yes. And it explains everything. Even why I never experienced this myself. I have never added such mods later on. I'm using KerbalAlarmClock and in 0.90 I was using the KethaneMod. But from the beginning and then I just added parts. And I do not use such mods in my development copy, too. Every time I was trying to reproduce this bug with other mods installed, I have started a game from scratch.

This bug was very hard to detect, but it seems that solving it, will be much harder...

Thanks to all that have contributed their observations.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Nereid

[cicatrix]

What's involved in creating a planet pack for custom planets?

[Nereid]

What's involved in creating a planet pack for custom planets?

1. creating ribbons
   
2. creating a CelestialBodies.info
   

Just take an existing planets pack as an example. You could then include this in you mod or as an optional PlanetsPack.

I can help you with this, when I found a solution to the "lost ribbons bug". Hopefully after this weekend...

[stevehead]

Is there a planet pack for Outer planets mod?

If you are referring to having ribbons for the Outer Planets mod, that mod comes with ribbons already for use in Final Frontier (found under GameData/OPM/Ribbons). You also want to copy the GameData/Nereid folder from the Outer Planets Mod ZIP to overwrite the Final Frontier's default Eeloo ribbons, since Eeloo becomes a moon of Sarnus.

- - - Updated - - -

Just an update. I finally got a way to reproduce the issue with the lost ribbons. It's a strange one and it seems it can happen, if you install another mod that writes to the persistent file.

After a small PM exchange, Nereid believes that my problem is exactly this. After accumulating ribbons, I had installed Waypoint Manager, which uses the ScenarioModule. This most likely wiped my ribbons.

[jpkerman]

Just as a side thought...

Should FF include an option to 'retire' a Kerbal after a certain length of service? I notice there is a 200 mission ribbon, would that add any RP value to have the mod remove a Kerbalnaut from active flight service after 200 missions? In a long enough game with little loss of Kerbals by death, that would see a 'changing of the guard ' of sorts and force recruitment of replacements.

[futrtrubl]

I think if you tried to force a Kerbal into retirement you would swiftly find a Kerbal X parked in kerbal resources.

[razark]

Just as a side thought...

Should FF include an option to 'retire' a Kerbal after a certain length of service?

I don't know about retiring after a set number of missions, but I'd love the ability to push a button and retire one when I need to.

[stevehead]

Just as a side thought...

Should FF include an option to 'retire' a Kerbal after a certain length of service? I notice there is a 200 mission ribbon, would that add any RP value to have the mod remove a Kerbalnaut from active flight service after 200 missions? In a long enough game with little loss of Kerbals by death, that would see a 'changing of the guard ' of sorts and force recruitment of replacements.

Wow, 200 missions. That's definitely more than a lifetime's work for one Kerbal, lol. I usually retire mine after 5 to 10 missions. I setup little retirement communities on the shores near KSC with Hitchhiker Storage Containers and plenty of life support (if using LS), but far enough to not be loaded every time I do something at the KSC, and let them live out the rest of their days beachfront. I'll occasionally go out there with LS supplies when needed.

[Beetlecat]

Just as a side thought...

Should FF include an option to 'retire' a Kerbal after a certain length of service? I notice there is a 200 mission ribbon, would that add any RP value to have the mod remove a Kerbalnaut from active flight service after 200 missions? In a long enough game with little loss of Kerbals by death, that would see a 'changing of the guard ' of sorts and force recruitment of replacements.

Isn't there a mod that requires rest between missions? I could easily see requiring taking a year off or so after 200... and you could bring them out of retirement at great cost...

[stevehead]

Isn't there a mod that requires rest between missions? I could easily see requiring taking a year off or so after 200... and you could bring them out of retirement at great cost...

Yeah, it's CrewQueue.

[futrtrubl]

and you could bring them out of retirement at great cost...

...in time to save Kerbin from an incoming class E asteroid...