The Ultimate VTOL Challenge

Fengist · January 27, 2014

The VTOL Challenge

First of all, yes, I have seen numerous VTOL challenges posted here. However, they have all been based around creating a single design for a single purpose. With this VTOL challenge you'll be performing multiple tasks with a single design. The purpose, like with my HELO Challenge, will be to create an aircraft capable of vertical takeoff and landing (not short takeoff) and then, proving it's versatility by completing tasks in speed, endurance, lifting ability and durability. If you haven't done my HELO Challenge and you're new to VTOL then you may want to start there. It will probably be considerably easier as helo rotors tend to be much more forgiving.

If you're interested in VTOL craft and the various types, have a look here.

Unlike my HELO Challenge, you'll be much more free to chose your propulsion type. Pretty much everything is open, including LFO (and Ion if you're into puny) powered VTOL's. No infiglide, editing of parts (with one exception below), etc.

Design rules:

You are to create one basic design and complete as many or all of the tasks below that you are capable of or desire to. You are allowed to make modifications to your basic design provided the basic frame shape remains unchanged (or mostly so). Some examples I'd allow:

Adding or removing engines or relocating them.

Changing engine types.

Exchanging a fuel tank for a fuselage of the same size and basic shape.

Adding or removing drop tanks.

Kethane tanks may be 'modded' to be full of fuel upon launch. Maximum capacity, weight nor any other factor of those tanks may be changed. This is purely to save you time in not having to go mine Kethane and drag it back to KSC). If you need an example, here's a pre-filled 1,000 unit Kethane tank.

The basic rule of thumb here is: Your engineers created a frame. Stick to that basic frame design and rearrange it as you need to complete each task. If you have any doubts as to whether a change is acceptable, simply post a before and after shot and I'll give you my opinion.

The big rules:

You may use any mod that has 'reasonable' capability. The spirit of this challenge is to mimic reality, not change the laws of physics. No OP'd mods with infinite fuel. No infigliding, etc.

You MUST have a pilot, no drones.

You may use various aerodynamic wings in your design however you must take off and land vertically, or at least mostly so. If yours is incapable of a vertical takeoff AND landing, it doesn't qualify.

You may use VTOL engines such as those provided in the B9 or Firespitter mods.

You may use a VTOL with rotating wings or rotors (similar to the Osprey aircraft). However, you must STILL take off and land vertically. No beating the prop blades against the runway (well, not intentionally anyway).

Mechjeb can only be used on the non-stop circumnavigation challenge. I like Jeb but I discovered months ago, it was having all the fun. This challenge is about the fun of flying, not watching Jeb fly.

If you think you might be disqualified, you probably will be as I may add silly rules later that I haven't thought of.

The spirit of this challenge is the overlying rule. Take Kerbal VTOL aircraft and push them to their, and you to your, limits. Test yourself and your design, not the mod or your abilities to find loopholes in my rules. That should sum it up.

PLEASE List in your proof posts which awards and distinctions you qualify for. Since I'm out of town on the laptop it's often difficult for me to see some of the close details.

Categories

You may submit multiple designs should you wish (and should your original design not be up to your standards) but please try to limit this.

Titles and Distinctions

The Bedstead Award - Launch from KSC and land on the KSC helo pad. (The one on the roof top. No, it's not as easy as it looks.) (In honor of Dr Alan Arnold Griffith who helped create the Flying Bedstead.)

The Airgeep Distinction - Launch from KSC. Deliver at least 2 Kerbals to the Island landing strip and return to KSC. (Kerbals must exit the VTOL and remain on the island.) (In honor of the Piasecki VZ-8 Airgeep, one of 3 entries submitted to the U.S. Army to make a flying Jeep.)

The Harrier Distinction - Have your VTOL achieve a Kerbin atmospheric speed in excess of 2,000 m/s. Stay under 40km altitude. (In honor of the Harrier Jump Jet and it's variants.)

The Moller Distinction - Take off vertically from KSC, circumnavigate Kerbin and land back at KSC vertically. Stay under 68km altitude (no suborbital hops). (In memory of the Moller SkyCar... because we should all be travelling like the Jetsons by now.)

The Dornier Award- Launch from KSC. Deliver at least 6 Kerbals to KSC2. Kerbals must safely exit the VTOL. (In honor of the experimental Dornier Do 31 Troop Transport)

The Osprey Award - Launch from KSC. SAFELY deliver and drop payload of at least 20 percent of the vehicles weight to KSC2. (In honor of the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey, considered the world's fist production tilt rotor.)

The DARPA VTOL-X Award - Launch from KSC. Achieve a speed in excess of 400 m/s while carrying a payload of at least 40 percent of the vehicle's weight. SAFELY deliver and drop this payload to the island runway and return to KSC. (You could be the next DARPA contractor if you meet this one)

The Delta Clipper Award - Launch from KSC, achieve a circular orbit with a PE of at least 70km and land back at KSC vertically. (The McDonnell Douglas DC-X was an early prototype single stage to orbit (SSTO) VTOL.)

The MLRV Award (Munar Landing Research Vehicle) - Deliver your VTOL to another orbital body (Mun, Minmus, etc.). You need not fly it there, you may use a launch vehicle for this purpose. Have your pilot exit, plant a flag and reboard your VTOL. Take off vertically, fly at least 100km from your flag (you will no longer be able to see it on the screen as a target) and land vertically. (The Lunar Landing Research Vehicle was a VTOL designed during the Apollo era to train pilots on methods for landing on the Moon. Kerbals don't need no stinking training.)

The Pogo Stick Award - Complete all of the above challenges with a single basic design.

Who needs a runway - I am a tailsitter!

jmiki8 (STOCK) - The Bedstead Award | The Airgeep Distinction

Swifty - The Pogo Stick Award with V-STS-P-Hummingbird

Kasuha (STOCK) - The Pogo Stick Award with the Pogo Stick!

Andrew Hansen (STOCK) - The Bedstead Award | The Harrier Distinction

DirkLarien with Kerbear - The Bedstead Award | The Moller Distinction

Mesklin (STOCK) | The Pogo Stick Award! with the Mushroom

DirkLarien | DARPA VTOL-X Award

Northstar1989 | Beadsted Award with the K-5 'Blackbird'

zapy | The Pogo Stick Award!

fluffysnowcap - The Bedstead Award | The Airgeep Distinction

Fengist - The Beadstead Award | The Airgeep Distinction | The DARPA VTOL-X Award | The Harrier Distinction

Claw (STOCK) - The Pogo Stick Award!

Duribun - The Bedstead Award | Moller Distinction

Raven - The Bedstead Award | The Dornier Award | The Airgeep Distinction with the Snowy Owl A3

Megalodon 720 - The Bedstead Award | The Osprey Award

Edited May 26, 2014 by Fengist

Fengist · January 27, 2014

Ok, I'm home and working on completing this. Here's some shots and some videos.

The DARPA VTOL-X Award

Sorry for the dark image but, the cargo is 2 RCS tanks under the engine pylon. Together, it's around 8 tons, well over the 40 percent. This is the speed shot. I'm using RAPIERS here in LFO mode to get that speed.

And, here's the payload safely delivered to the runway.

Bedstead & Airgeep Video

A rather long and boring video of me trying to remember how to fly this thing.

The Harrier Distinction

Edited February 15, 2014 by Fengist

Kasuha · January 27, 2014

I don't think the MLRV is possible in Tesla fanatics category unless you use some really OP ion engines or move the challenge to Minmus.

Apart of that I want to ask how the payload fraction is calculated (20%, 40%). Assuming I have a ship which is (without payload):

- 10 tons dry weight

- 15 tons with fuel suitable for the challenge task

- 20 tons when full of fuel

How much payload is 20% payload?

Fengist · January 27, 2014

I don't think the MLRV is possible in Tesla fanatics category unless you use some really OP ion engines or move the challenge to Minmus.
Apart of that I want to ask how the payload fraction is calculated (20%, 40%). Assuming I have a ship which is (without payload):
- 10 tons dry weight
- 15 tons with fuel suitable for the challenge task
- 20 tons when full of fuel
How much payload is 20% payload?

Yea, I thought about the Electric/MLRV problem and that's why I even mentioned Minmus as a potential target. I can't remember which mod it is but there is one that has larger Ion engines that are fairly balanced. My main concern is that with a reactor and electric helo rotors, you can fly that thing and never have to stop making it way OP'd for atmospheric challenges. I want to make the non-atmospheric part much more difficult.

The simplest way to calculate this I can think of is...

Launch full of fuel. No editing or modding of parts (with the exception of Kethane tanks which may be pre-filled in order to save time dragging Kethane back to KSC). That gives WAY too much leeway. Switch to orbital map and hit the 'i' button which will display the weight in tons. If you're weight at launch is 20 tons then an additional 20% would be a 4 ton payload.

Something to note here. I didn't say you had to actually land with the payload attached, merely deliver it. One option I looked at with my HELO Challenge was dropping the payloads from altitude and letting parachutes do the landing part.

Take note, I'm changing the rules to reflect the fact that the payload must be dropped and left at the targets. Carrying 4 extra tons of fuel which you use in the flight wouldn't count.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Fengist

Kasuha · January 27, 2014

No editing or modding of parts

We have tweakables since 0.23 and can set up amount of fuel in tanks in VAB, I don't think that counts as modding. If the plane can do the task with 10% of its fuel capacity, I don't see reason to take full tank with me there and back.

If you're weight at launch is 20 tons then an additional 20% would be a 4 ton payload.

Okay, thanks for clarification. I asked because you might look at it from the other side - 20 tons ship + 4 tons payload make 24 tons total and those 4 tons are only 16% of the total weight.

Fengist · January 27, 2014

We have tweakables since 0.23 and can set up amount of fuel in tanks in VAB, I don't think that counts as modding. If the plane can do the task with 10% of its fuel capacity, I don't see reason to take full tank with me there and back.

I stand corrected. I don't play with tweakables much but, if it can be done then you found a valid loophole. I'll allow it. BUT. The payload weight must be a percentage of the full fuel launch weight. In our example of 20 tons, you could tweak half your fuel off but you'd still need to carry the 4 tons.

Okay, thanks for clarification. I asked because you might look at it from the other side - 20 tons ship + 4 tons payload make 24 tons total and those 4 tons are only 16% of the total weight.

Yea, I'm not a physicist so we'll do it the simple way. I guess I should have done it like my Helo challenge and just made it 10 and 40 tons. But, I know some smaller craft might have problems with 40 tons of payload and helo props have a 'cargo' throttle that help them get that much off the ground.

jacobgong · January 27, 2014

Yea, I thought about the Electric/MLRV problem and that's why I even mentioned Minmus as a potential target. I can't remember which mod it is but there is one that has larger Ion engines that are fairly balanced. My main concern is that with a reactor and electric helo rotors, you can fly that thing and never have to stop making it way OP'd for atmospheric challenges. I want to make the non-atmospheric part much more difficult.

if It does that then it is not balanced, a nuclear powered electric helicopter going at 2000m/s is clearly in violation of the rules of physics.

Okay, thanks for clarification. I asked because you might look at it from the other side - 20 tons ship + 4 tons payload make 24 tons total and those 4 tons are only 16% of the total weight.

If you remember your math classes in school, you always calculate with the original value. Like if you buy something and there is 15% tax, the tax is 15% of the original price, not 15% of the total amount you pay.

This challenge is about the fun of flying, not watching Jeb fly.

If it can be done by a few lines of code, then I don't see the fun of doing it manually.

Edited January 27, 2014 by jacobgong

Fengist · January 27, 2014

if It does that then it is not balanced, a nuclear powered electric helicopter going at 2000m/s is clearly in violation of the rules of physics.

I would agree with that completely with one exception. The helo props alone won't reach 2,000 m/s. Their thrust dies out way before that kind of altitude or speed is reached. But, with electric helo props it is possible to 'fold' them into a stowed (and I'll assume protected) position at which point some other form of forward propulsion could be engaged (Boeing tried this). Since I haven't dove into the full realm of electric engine mods I'm not positive of what's out there. But, if it proves impossible to achieve that speed with electrics, I'll gladly relax the rules.

Fengist · January 27, 2014

If it can be done by a few lines of code, then I don't see the fun of doing it manually.

Because things like this should never happen...

jacobgong · January 27, 2014

Because things like this should never happen...
http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/m/microsofts_flight_simulator-12068.jpg

I don't get it, Microsoft Flight Simulator is a hard core simulator and used for training real pilots. If someone is familiar with it I'd trust him to land a real plane especially with the help of the control tower and hopefully a copilot.

jacobgong · January 27, 2014

Aero add-on:

-Launch from launchpad and land on the helipad

-go over 2000m/s

-circumnavigate (under 40km all the way)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

To be continued

Edited January 27, 2014 by jacobgong

Kasuha · January 27, 2014

If you remember your math classes in school, you always calculate with the original value. Like if you buy something and there is 15% tax, the tax is 15% of the original price, not 15% of the total amount you pay.

Sure the percentual fraction is always calculated from the "original value". But the question is, what is the original value. Is it plane without, or with the payload?

In real life, plane payload fraction is calculated off the liftoff weight including the payload.

Note that I'm not complaining.

Fengist · January 27, 2014

Aero add-on:
-Launch from launchpad and land on the helipad
-go over 2000m/s
-circumnavigate (under 40km all the way)
http://imgur.com/a/mAaJs

I'm curious, how did you launch that thing? Oh, I get it, launchpad. I guess I should have specified the runway, but that works too. Well done, leaderboard updated. If you complete any more, please make a new post with any changes so I'm not going over previous posts to spot them.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Fengist

jacobgong · January 27, 2014

I'm curious, how did you launch that thing? Oh, I get it, launchpad. I guess I should have specified the runway, but that works too.

It doesn't matter which, just use a clamp.

Fengist · January 27, 2014

It doesn't matter which, just use a clamp.

Hang on a sec. You ejected your engines to land on the roof????? Where'd they go?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Fengist

jmiki8 · January 27, 2014

I've built my first well-manouverable VTOL some days ago, and I completed a basic mission with it (deliver 2 kerbals to the island airfield, and land on VAB's helipad):

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Sgt. Cookie · January 27, 2014

For the pogo stick award, I'm assuming that "add-ons" are allowed? For example, I have a craft that only runs off of air breathing engines, so would attaching a couple of rockets to its payload link still be eligible for the Pogo Stick award?

Swifty · January 27, 2014

Presenting a Pogo Stick contestant the:

V-STS-P-Hummingbird

weighing in at 15.6tn

Javascript is disabled. View full album

The Bedstead Award: Check

The Airgeep Distinction & The DARPA VTOL-X Award: Check and Check (Playload weighed in at 7.41tn (47.5%))

The Harrier Distinction: Check

The Mollar Distinction: Check (I flew up to 60km and the circlrised my orbit to be ~60x60, kept my speed up until i did a retrograde burn to come down and land on top of the VAB)

The Dornier Award and Osprey Award: Check ( Base aircraft only capable of holding 4 so I carried an additional 6 in the payload... - The payload weighed in art 4.51tn(28%))

The Delta Clipper Award: Check (This craft was originally designed to transfer crew to a station at 120km)

The MLRV Award: Check ( Landed on the Mun, Planter "Landing Zone Alpha" Flag - Craft modication: Jet VTOL Engines changed to rocket VTOL engines)

The Pogo Stick Award: Check!

If all the above is within the rules.

Mods: FAR, B9, Kebral Engineer and Kethane for a handy 1tn exactly tank

Edited January 27, 2014 by Swifty

m1sz · January 27, 2014

nice one swifty!

jacobgong · January 27, 2014

Hang on a sec. You ejected your engines to land on the roof????? Where'd they go?

they blew up because I didn't land as soft as I wanted. You never said it had to be perfect landings. It is theoretically possible to do, I just didn't feel like trying it again.

Now the crew add-on:

-kerbals to KSC2

-Kerbals to island runway

-20% cargo to KSC2

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Fengist · January 28, 2014

I've built my first well-manouverable VTOL some days ago, and I completed a basic mission with it (deliver 2 kerbals to the island airfield, and land on VAB's helipad):

Excellent! And stock to boot! Leaderboard Updated.

Fengist · January 28, 2014

For the pogo stick award, I'm assuming that "add-ons" are allowed? For example, I have a craft that only runs off of air breathing engines, so would attaching a couple of rockets to its payload link still be eligible for the Pogo Stick award?

Absolutely. The reason I allow this is, when you think about it, aircraft and helo designers build a frame. From there, based on what role they want the aircraft to fill, they rearrange the parts. The F-4 Phantom, for example, saw LOTS of variation in it's years of service.

Fengist · January 28, 2014

Presenting a Pogo Stick contestant the:
V-STS-P-Hummingbird
weighing in at 15.6tn
http://imgur.com/a/iFs2D
The Bedstead Award: Check
The Airgeep Distinction & The DARPA VTOL-X Award: Check and Check (Playload weighed in at 7.41tn (47.5%))
The Harrier Distinction: Check
The Mollar Distinction: Check (I flew up to 60km and the circlrised my orbit to be ~60x60, kept my speed up until i did a retrograde burn to come down and land on top of the VAB)
The Dornier Award and Osprey Award: Check ( Base aircraft only capable of holding 4 so I carried an additional 6 in the payload... - The payload weighed in art 4.51tn(28%))
The Delta Clipper Award: Check (This craft was originally designed to transfer crew to a station at 120km)
The MLRV Award: Check ( Landed on the Mun, Planter "Landing Zone Alpha" Flag - Craft modication: Jet VTOL Engines changed to rocket VTOL engines)
The Pogo Stick Award: Check!
If all the above is within the rules.
Mods: FAR, B9, Kebral Engineer and Kethane for a handy 1tn exactly tank

That's exactly what I was hoping to see. Function, utility, versatility... nice Swifty! Leaderboard Updated!

Fengist · January 28, 2014

they blew up because I didn't land as soft as I wanted. You never said it had to be perfect landings. It is theoretically possible to do, I just didn't feel like trying it again.
Now the crew add-on:
-kerbals to KSC2
-Kerbals to island runway
-20% cargo to KSC2
http://imgur.com/a/odNXB

You are correct. I never said the landings had to be perfect. Well done, Leaderboard Updated! Will be interesting to see how you solve the last 3 challenges. BTW, I love those B9 turbofans. I modded a pair to run on Kethane for a jet I dropped on Eve. They're damn cheap on fuel.

Kasuha · January 28, 2014

Meet my ultimate VTOL: The Pogo Stick!

Stock only, no mods at all used, 2.99 t.

I did all achievements separately:

The Bedstead Award - no modifications

The Airgeep Distinction - modifications: 2 seats added

The Harrier Distinction - no modifications

The Moller Distinction - no modifications

The Dornier Award - modifications: 6 seats added

The Osprey Award - modifications: payload attached

The DARPA VTOL-X Award - modifications: payload attached

The Delta Clipper Award - modifications: two LV-1R engines added (oxidizer used from default tank)

The MLRV Award - modifications: two 48-7S engines added (oxidizer used from default tank), extra fuel tanks attached for travel to Mun

The MLRV Award - alternate (return from Mun to Kerbin)

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Edited January 28, 2014 by Kasuha

The Ultimate VTOL Challenge

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