Discuss: MJ makes KSP more acceptable to Junior player. Hence, create more QUESTIONS.

[mythbusters844]

I'm pretty young yet I've never used MechJeb before, except once to see what it had. Other than that, I land, take off, rendezvous, ascent, etc. manually.

[jwenting]

I think you guys are too used to Skunky. Guess what, he's not here anymore. I want to believe discussing mechjeb is no longer taboo as long as we keep things civil.

problem is the MJ haters rarely keep things civilised for long.

[Rowsdower]

I think you guys are too used to Skunky. Guess what, he's not here anymore. I want to believe discussing mechjeb is no longer taboo as long as we keep things civil.

Things aren't automatically different just because another CM's in the house However, I do like to encourage discussion on many different types of subjects as long as they remain civil and respectful to all sides and haven't been rehashed to death. This includes Mechjeb. I never had the impression that Mechjeb was verboten, though, merely one of many hot topics where passions can easily flare into something else. However, this also veers into "rehashed discussion" territory so either way, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Rowsdower
Inserted a word

[PDCWolf]

problem is the MJ haters rarely keep things civilised for long.

It's not a single part's fault though, reactions can't happen without actions.

[Martijn404]

Before using MechJeb, I've done countless ascents, landed on all planets and moons (including Tylo), docked ships, and executed hundreds of manouver nodes. I've even eyeballed transfers to all planets with a protractor on the screen and found my way there without so much as a single manouver node or setting a planet as a target. Finding a SOI was trial and error and orientation was done by stars. (Try that sometimes, find your way to Dres without left-clicking anywhere in Mapview!)

Now I'm so happy I can use Mechjeb for the routine stuff (mainly Ascent, and Execute Next Node), and without it i would have quit KSP a long time ago. Repetitive tasks are no fun and feel like work. I honestly get strains in my hands from executing the nodes dozens of times a night. Let me just enjoy KSP for the things that I want to do, not for the things that can better be done automated.

Thank you

[jwenting]

It's not a single part's fault though, reactions can't happen without actions.

the very word MechJeb has some people foaming at the mouth...

[TerLoki]

I've always used MechJeb, at first mostly because I was having a hard time even getting some of my designs to orbit, then to rendezvous so I could build space stations. Now I've been playing career mode, and I really like that it implements MechJeb incrementally. You don't start out with the ascent autopilot or automated orbital adjustments or anything, but you DO have enough to assist you in rocket building and help you learn what to do, which is awesome. Warp to phase angle is a big one here. It can be a real pain to get those lined up manually, without anything to really tell you what the exact angle onscreen is. Warp to phase angle lets you time your launches correctly without having to eyeball it. Yes, it's automation, but you still have to know the phase angle and ejection angle of your burns, plus how much delta-V you'll need.

[DerekL1963]

Yes and no. If a new player is introduced to MJ too early they can become hopelessly dependent on it.

There is no such thing as "hopelessly dependent on MJ", there is only "playing the game in ways that some people do not approve of". To that I reply, the approval of a self appointed gatekeeper is not necessary for my or anyone else's enjoyment of the game and the fault thus lies with those who think there is, not with me.

In addition, there are other people like me - not only do I have poor eye hand coordination (I had the misfortune to be born out on left hand side of the bell curve in that respect, which was then made worse by things way off topic here), but I also didn't grow up a gamer (I was an adult by the time PC games hit the mainstream) and thus have neither twitch reflexes nor the WASD keys engraved in my muscle memory. Without MJ, KSP would literally be almost completely unplayable. I don't feel robbed or hopeless, I feel enabled.

They should at least learn and be familiar with the basics, such as orbiting, Hohmann transfers, and landing on the Mun. Then Mechjeb becomes a great tool to help them to learn docking, precision landing, or interplanetary transfers.

[[Citation needed]] You state this as a fact, when it's actually an opinion.

Much like the upcoming tutorials, players need to figure out at least some of it on their own. If you handhold them all the way you rob them of the lightbulb moments that make KSP fun.

Different people get enjoyment from different aspects of the game. My lightbulb moments come from solving difficult engineering or operational challenges, not from twitch reflex challenges. I however do not make, as you do, the presumption that people who don't enjoy my playstyle are "playing wrong" or "robbed" because I understand that people are different and enjoy different things. KSP is a sandbox, not a rail game, and there are a myriad ways to find enjoyment not One True Way to "win" at playing.

[SpaceGremlin]

Don't get me wrong, I am all for however anyone chooses to play, and I am all for Mechjeb too (I use it a lot). But there is a loose progression of skills and accomplishments that most players will go through eventually. Mechjebbing straight through all of them from step one probably won't be very fulfilling for most players. I'm not trying to get anyone to use Mechjeb or to not use it, but to point them in a direction that I think will help them to decide whether MJ will be what they derive the most enjoyment from.

New players will come to the forum looking for guidance. Hopefully we can greet them with a discussion on the merits of Mechjeb for new players rather than some strictly pro/anti MJ ideology. Once again my stance is: Mechjeb can be a great learning tool for new players, just not right from the absolute start (warning: opinion, in case you get confused again).

Now excuse me while I go call out some noobs for ********bing and set them on the One True Way to play KSP. /sarcasm

[Sirine]

1st thread updated.

A) MJ = Mech Jeb.

Junior player = 12~15 years old.

C) QUESTION = Do you have kids that always ask you ... "why papa/mama? why this? why that? why plane fly? why superman fly, why I can't fly?" why*10n...

Think it simple...this topic is about

A+B+C = ? (your point of view).

[jwenting]

1st thread updated.

A) MJ = Mech Jeb.

Junior player = 12~15 years old.

C) QUESTION = Do you have kids that always ask you ... "why papa/mama? why this? why that? why plane fly? why superman fly, why I can't fly?" why*10n...

Think it simple...this topic is about

A+B+C = ? (your point of view).

B seems to me the main group of MJ haters here, kids that can't stand other people being able to do something. And I guess most of them use MJ themselves, they just don't want others to be able to do what they're doing.

Rather say Junior == less experienced

[lyndonguitar]

I use mechjeb most of the time, the fun in KSP for me is having to build your own designs (and seeing them work and travel places!), modding things by myself, making space stations, designing efficient vehicles, mining things(kethane), travelling the whole system, and etc, etc.

I mostly roleplay my space program as an earth-based company(so I play with realism mods like real solar system, remotetech, FAR, lifesupport, etc), I also pretend that the kerbals are really human astronauts. while I can absolutely play KSP without mechjeb, when you have launched and controlled like a thousand rockets and spacecrafts already the novelty eventually wears off, and you will really need an autopilot mod to keep things interesting.

IRL, they use autopilot most of the time, no point in using pure pilot skills when a computer can do it flawlessly most of the time. even airline pilots use autopilot most of the flight, they only take charge during takeoff and landing or emergencies

Edited February 11, 2014 by lyndonguitar

[helaeon]

I say MJ is another layer on the game. It's not much help if you don't speak the language of spaceflight. Many of the coolest frustration relieving functions are not obvious.

I don't see the fun in pushing-pulling maneuver nodes if I know what to tell mechjeb to calculate for me so it goes in exactly right. But, without knowing what that node should be and should look like MJ might be making things harder and you'd never know. I agree that the fun in doing some things manually goes away, especially when they are tedious and a little more trial and error than they should be. The best part of mechjeb is the customizable data read outs (VOID does this too, but I've yet to try it to see if it's really better at it). A lot of things work much better in KSP by having instrumentation and MechJeb provides most of it.

I've found a lot of things MechJeb isn't amazing at and I really do need to pilot manually. Making maneuver nodes though, no... no mechjeb can do that better than I can with far more precision. Executing that node to create the desired result, not so much (seriously).

To sum: pilot assist-info functions are awesome. Auto-pilot... is good but not amazing.

I don't think mechjeb necessarily makes KSP more accessible. It makes a lot of things in KSP less of a chore so people keep playing it. I think most of us did those chores at some point so we know what to do and sought out the MJ function to lighten the load so we could do things MJ can't, like build and plan and most of all enjoy what we're doing!

[USKnight]

I wanted to throw my hat in this discussion, if only one time.

I am a MechJeb player.

Kerbal Space Program, to me, is SimNASA. I am the designer, I am the planner, I am the coordinator. In the real world, computers do the work. In my game, computers do the work. After I tell the computer what to do. And plan it. And built the ship with the necessary capability to do what I ask the computer to perform. Oh and dreamed up the mission in the first place.

I don't understand the controversy in the end. Anyone whose ever used a mod, any mod, is not playing "pure" Kerbal Space Program. Why do we use mods? Because we want cool things like Gemini-Titan replicas, bigger nuclear engines, and Kerbal Attachment System. Non of that is stock. Which makes every one of us cheaters.

I love Scott Manley and I love the AARs written by Cashen and Brotoro. I look up to them. Do they use MechJeb? Yes. Not for auto-piloting, but yes. They want something that isn't stock, they want info, stats, and data. Cheaters. Why is there some bias that their way of cheating is "better" than mine?

I love this game and MechJeb enhances my love for it. Why this earns me your ire, I don't understand. In an RTS, I'm a turtle. In World of Warcraft , I'm a tank. My play style is mine, not yours. My choice of mods is my personal preference. I don't hate people who play differently than me; especially in a solo game! MechJeb is a powerful tool that I use and will continue to use for the enjoyment of myself.

I'll even confide that I've been drafting an AAR sorts in the spirit of those I look up to. I've thought to myself, "I shouldn't post this" (and haven't). Why? Because I use MechJeb and I'll be scorned. MechJeb stirs up such controversy when its an advanced tool that can be by beginners and advanced players alike. It's installation and use are one-hundred percent optional. I can install it and never use it or I could depend on for everything. Either way, it's not something to become angry about. Kerbal Space Program is a game and I, like you, am passionate about it. And I use MechJeb.

My Topic Answer: Can MechJeb be useful in teaching new/younger players how to play and even show them? Absolutely! Even when they "go manual", the info screens alone will allow them to build craft capable of accomplishing their dreams.

[mythic_fci]

In my VERY early days of KSP, MechJeb was my only HOPE for orbit.

Now, I've outgrown that. I became a stock lover back in 0.18, and I haven't looked back. In my opinion, MechJeb is a good training tool for beginners, nothing more

[Aghanim]

I don't know, mechjeb launcher is hopeless for launching my rockets into orbit as it will flip all time, its autoland is useless with a VTOL thrust balancer mod (forgot the name), but its readouts are very useful, Smart A.S.S is well, it should be in the vanilla game, and node autoburn is very useful for long interplanetary distance, with the option to change map view mode in real-time

What mechjeb doesn't have is burn timer

EDIT: Who is Skunky?

Edited February 12, 2014 by Aghanim

[mikeydz]

Then those are out of date as they have said in multiple interviews that they plan on putting just such a feature in the game. Centered around training the Kerbals to do things.

Can you post a link to a post or direct me to an interview (Squadcast or whatever) where a dev has said an autopilot system is planned to be added in the final version? I'd be interested in knowing more on what scope they intend to implement such a system, since everything I've seen has them against putting in in any type of autopilot. Of course, considering the volume of posts and videos, I'll admit I may have missed that announcement.

[sarbian]

Hey, a thread about MJ that did not turn into a brawl in its first 24H

Yes and no. If a new player is introduced to MJ too early they can become hopelessly dependent on it. They should at least learn and be familiar with the basics, such as orbiting, Hohmann transfers, and landing on the Mun. Then Mechjeb becomes a great tool to help them to learn docking, precision landing, or interplanetary transfers.

I will not be the first to quote on this but I think its the main point for me. As the current dev I see a lot of "miss use" of MJ by people who don't try to understand the mechanics behind it. Some of them are new players and that can be excused but others are not.

My point of view is that MJ should be used to learn those mechanics and not as a clutch or an excuse to not try. It's a tool and as such you need to understand its use and when to properly use it.

And good pilot should be able to use it for some task without having to deal with lamers who think that using it means you can't pilot.

[mikeydz]

I don't know, mechjeb launcher is hopeless for launching my rockets into orbit as it will flip all time

I've had the complete opposite experience. Any rocket I've been able to fly manually into orbit, MJ can handle as well. Of course, I don't build anything exotic like asparagus, since I prefer the more "realistic" look of a vertical staging setup, so maybe MJ doesn't play well with those???

its autoland is useless with a VTOL thrust balancer mod (forgot the name)

I'm guessing Throttle Controlled Avionics perhaps?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/67270-Throttle-Controlled-Avionics-1-1-0-23

but its readouts are very useful, Smart A.S.S is well, it should be in the vanilla game

Yes, very, very useful, and should be in stock.

EDIT: Who is Skunky?

Skunky (aka Capt'n Skunky) was the Community Manager up until late Sept/early Oct 2013

[sarbian]

I don't know, mechjeb launcher is hopeless for launching my rockets into orbit as it will flip all time,

I never saw a rocket flipping that wasn't a miss use of MJ

[Demon_82]

I'm lazy and altough I can do every manuever (not the most efficient pilot, but I'm capable of taking off, landing, orbiting, "rendezvous-ing" and docking by hand) I tend to let MJ do it whil I'm eating or doing any other thing. Specially when I hit highest part counts and lag gets KSP to look like a slideshow until you miss the too big asparagus 14 stage launcher. I've had no issues with it until I got the ship being controlled from a place I didn't want to, but that was my mistake xD And I can tell you, my not-so-efficient "rendezvous-ing" is something I learnt from seeing MJ, previously I was more likely to miss by a few hundrerd Km xD

[Red Iron Crown]

I would have stopped playing KSP a long time ago if not for MechJeb. It provides all the missing data during craft construction and flight, plus allows the automation of routine, menial tasks. I don't really gain much from manually launching and docking five tankers to fuel up an interstellar ship.

Besides, I enjoy the craft design and mission planning parts of the game more than piloting. I'm a mediocre pilot at best, and, while I'm sure I could improve with more practice, I prefer to let MechJeb handle that stuff for me as it's not the part of the game that I enjoy most. I still do a few landings manually but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I understand and respect those players who love piloting manually and wouldn't dream of using MJ; obviously for them the piloting is the most satisfying part of the game. Good for them, and I hope they have fun with it. But it's not for me.

As for the effect on new players, I think MechJeb broadens the appeal of KSP. We are literally doing rocket science here, not everyone has the talent or patience to get into manually calculating dV, TWR, transfer burns, phase angles, etc. I think there are a lot of potential players who would be turned off by having the game be math homework.

As others have pointed out, it is a great teaching tool. You can learn a lot about how to efficiently do a variety of maneuvers by watching how MechJeb does it. For example, I think trying to learn how to rendezvous with another spacecraft by trial and error is very difficult for new players not versed in orbital mechanics (and really, how many people are?). So much of how orbits work is counter intuitive (slowing down to catch up with a target ahead of you, etc) that I can see a lot of new players getting frustrated by feeling stupid and giving up.

Finally, and this may be a bit contentious, MechJeb is realistic. Modern spacecraft, even manned ones, don't have a pilot holding a stick manually guiding them through maneuvers, the autopilot handles all that. At most, a manual system exists as a backup should something malfunction in the automatic systems. Spaceflight really does consist of telling the computer what maneuver is to be completed and then letting it do its thing without manual intervention. Just like MechJeb in KSP.

I would be very happy if MechJeb were incorporated into the core game. It suits every style of play; do manually the things you enjoy and let the autopilot handle the rest. If, for you, that means having it off all the time, have a great time. I'll be having fun the way I like to play.

[DerekL1963]

I don't know, mechjeb launcher is hopeless for launching my rockets into orbit as it will flip all time

I've never seen a rocket flip with MJ at the controls that wasn't badly designed.

What mechjeb doesn't have is burn timer

Nor does it need one as a burn isn't measured by time it's measured by delta-V.

[NathanKell]

I've never seen a rocket flip with MJ at the controls that wasn't badly designed.

Or rather, that wouldn't do the same thing if you flew a similar ascent. I.e. pitching over 45 degrees at 10km and calling it a "gravity turn."

[Blackbox]

I found Mechjeb very useful in the beginning.

I had it do everything.

I even cheated my science value to enable all of its features.

But: I started a new career last weekend and decided not to do that again, to gain the science by myself.

And: It worked out somehow. I got some vessels into orbit without the ascend guidance of Mechjeb, I got three scansats around Kerbin and one in each orbit of Mun and Minmus.

One thing I would never figured out if I would have used Mechjeb: That the "Add Maneuver" button in the flightpath is actually having a very nice functionality. That way I got to Mun and Minmus without much effort. I would have never found that out with Mechjeb. Shame on me...

But as I am lazy I will probably use Mechjeb to get into orbit, once I unlock the ascend guidance...

And I am sure I will source out Landing once I can handle it myself.

This is what I've always done: Learn something and then let others do it and go ahead.

I went from notepad website creation to WYSIWYG once I was good enough at it (ages ago).