[WIP] KerbalSocial - just an idea at this stage

[codepoet]

After spending some time working on ConnectedLivingSpace, I have been interested in the discussions about what sorts of mod it would be useful for. One of the ideas that has been suggested is a sanity mod, whereby a Kerbal, his environment and bunkmates can conspire together to result in him loosing his mind, and saying something like "I am going out for a space walk, I may be some time."

There are several forms this could take:

1) sanity is affected by parts and ship design. I hate this idea as it just becomes another life support mod "add this part to stay alive".

2) sanity is affected by distance from home, contact with other kerbals etc. This is better and makes use of CLS too, as it would be important to ensure that kerbals shared living space.

3) Sanity is affected by other kerbals' attributes - such as stupidity and courage.

4) We add more attributes to each kerbal, such as patience, empathy, arrogance etc, and also allow each kerbal to have a relationship with each other kerbal characterised by certain attributes - friendship, admiration, jealousy, resentment.

I like the suggestion of 4). the rich soup of attributes could be combined with certain events to change both the quality and attributes of the relationships and the attributes of each kerbal. So some examples off the top of my head:

1) If a kerbal does not have much contact with kerbals with whom there is a good level of friendship, then the kerbal becomes more lonely.

2) If a two kerbals develop a high level of friendship, then a third may develop jealousy towards them,

3) If a kerbal has an achievement (eva on a body for example (could the achievements system be used for this?)) then kerbals that do not have that achievement might develop either admiration or jealousy depending on attributes of their own character, or of their relationship with that kerbal.

4) If a kerbal dies then when news of this reaches the other kerbals in space it may have a negative effect on some of their attributes, ie they become sad if one of their friends dies, which would actually createa consequence for loosing a kerbals in space.

It would not quite be "The Sims in space" but it would offer an oppertunity to develop a completely different aspect of the game, and could be quite fun. It would also lead to considerations for space mission other than just the physics.

So I am seeking feedback. Would it take away from the hard edged physics of the game? Would it be something folks would enjoy playing? What other ideas do folks have for how it could be developed? What attributes for kerbals, and relationships between kerbals would be needed?

Edited February 13, 2014 by codepoet
spelling

[DasBananenbrot]

lcome this this would give more depth to long duration voyages (Another thing would be also age for even MOAR realism be that can be done by others) I am sorry that I won't be able to provide any developing help though

Edited February 13, 2014 by DasBananenbrot

[codepoet]

Another thing would be also age for even MOAR realism

I did once entertain the thought of kerbals breading in the colonies....

[Whovian]

I agree with DasBananenbrot, this would add quite a bit of depth.

Now, please don't feel like I'm trying to take control of your mod or anything of the sort; take this merely as a suggestion based on the potential I see in this mod right now. And my sincerest apologies if that previous sentence sounded like a statement that you're easily offended; that is not how I meant it. Currently, even with most mods I've seen, a KSP flight consists of the launches, the burns, the landings, the captures, and ... not much else. Depending on how this done, this could add some gameplay of some sort to the long periods of waiting in between burns. Kind of like the Minecraft mod Gregtech's adding machine sensitivity to rain. (I've no idea if the wicked Gregtech polarization has penetrated even this sacred forum, but let's not fight about Gregtech, please.)

[DasBananenbrot]

I did once entertain the thought of kerbals breading in the colonies....

That is also a interesting idea

[codepoet]

What is minecraft?

Nevermind - back to the Sims....

Yes indeed, it would add a whole other aspect of the game, and of course crew selection, (and who you left on Minimus accidentally on purpose) would become important aspects of a mission.

Played alongside one of the lifesupport mods, and the keepfit mod, the game would become about much more than just delta-v.

[a__gun]

You just cant stay focused can ya

Personally I agree on number 1 - no point in a 'add this part to win' system. I like both 2 and 3, and think a combination of the two would be the way to go. For me, number 4 is just starting to get a bit more complex than anything kerbal ever should.

I'm imagining (using CLS) the size of a kerbal's living space, the time spent within it, the other kerbals (and their sanity and stock attributes) within the living space and the distance from Kerbin all being the main factors. Other things should also impact in a more minor way, such as gaining science, landing on a body, spacewalks and amount of resources left (this could both tie into life support mods and also try to roughly gauge chance of safe return home - when running out of fuel Kerbals should start to panic!).

[The Destroyer]

-snip-

Where's that gif from?

[Helix935]

Where's that gif from?

that is from doctor who (To be more specific Episode The Big Bang, second season with Matt smith, season finale, and yes i like doctor who)

[Headhunter09]

I was making a mod like this, but its only around 60% done.

My only input is that everything should be very simple algorithmically. That is, the user shouldn't have to worry about love triangles, jealously, etc. The user should have to worry about a single number: the Kerbal's sanity. Sanity should be influenced by available space, number of companions, and per-capita space. Things like reaching a new planet, docking with a ship of new Kerbals, and returning to Kerbin should give immediate boosts to sanity, but eventually the effects should falloff.

My reasoning here is that the user shouldn't have to worry about micro-managing crew. The main appeal for many people, I think, is that it requires them to create larger ships for longer voyages, and puts a time limit on the mission when using a smaller spacecraft.

[codepoet]

I was making a mod like this, but its only around 60% done.

My only input is that everything should be very simple algorithmically. That is, the user shouldn't have to worry about love triangles, jealously, etc. The user should have to worry about a single number: the Kerbal's sanity. Sanity should be influenced by available space, number of companions, and per-capita space. Things like reaching a new planet, docking with a ship of new Kerbals, and returning to Kerbin should give immediate boosts to sanity, but eventually the effects should falloff.

My reasoning here is that the user shouldn't have to worry about micro-managing crew. The main appeal for many people, I think, is that it requires them to create larger ships for longer voyages, and puts a time limit on the mission when using a smaller spacecraft.

Are you still working on your project, or has it been abandoned?

[Headhunter09]

Are you still working on your project, or has it been abandoned?

Eh, I work on it sometimes. I was running into problems with GameEvents and persistence, but if I get those solved it'll just be polishing left to do.

[codepoet]

OK, well I will persue other interests and look forward to what you come up with.

[kiwiak]

I think you shoudl forteit "sims" aspect like kerbals being jelaus each other etc.

In TAC you dont create menu for astronauts, choose atmsphere pressure and composiotion etc. as well.

But aside of things that woudl affect sanity factor, what shoudl sanity factor affect?

Shoudl in kill crew?

Decrease their piloting ability?

I think that crewmembers with low sanity points shoudl be not able to go EVA, thats for certain.. As for death aspect... Well i dont think same solution from life support mods, "you have >1 of this resource, crew is dead" is good here. There shoudl be some chance of crew death if they have extremly low sanity factor. But nothing for certain.

[Ascraeus]

I'll like to put my two cents here: There are some old threads about kerbal sanity and long term space travel effects but i think all of them end overcomplicating things and finally doing nothing. Due to that, i'll recommend to stick with 2), (at least for a first stage) and I think 3) & 4) can wait for some later version. As an addendum, there are 3 mods that i feel are lacking in KSP:

1) Fitness

2) "Sanity"

3) Radiation

As im almost analphabet in C#, i can only hope somebody will do those mods for me to use them. Implementing those 3 will take KSP one level further regarding realism and inmersion.

That being said, i can only encorage you to take this project, and i think that your CLS is a really good base to build a sanity/fitness mod upon it.

Cheers and keep the good work on!!

[codepoet]

Thanks for all your feedback in this stuff BTW.

The reason that I started thinking of the complicated stuff around my suggestion 4) was to find a way of avoiding sanity being something that just decreases over time.

Headhunter's suggestions are good, but ultimately what he is suggesting is that kerbals have a certain amount of sanity that decreases over time, and when it runs out the kerbal goes a bit perculiar. You can change the rate at which it declines with aspects of ship design, but at the end of the day it is little different to having your mission limited by the amount of food or oxygen. If you want a longer mission then you just add another hitchhiker container so your kerbals go mad slower - it still boils down to "add this part to win".

Another idea that occured to me was to build in a system of experience or rank, whereby kerbals that have been in space before have more "experience" which makes them a positive influenc eon the crew. Similarly kerbals who have had lots of achievements ("I stood on laythe") get a promotion on return to kerbin, and more senior kerbals are more capable in command. - Just thinking out loud at this point.

[regex]

Were I to design this, I would probably go the route of tracking how well Kerbals got along with each other rather than some raw "sanity" value (it's not entirely Call of Cthulhu up in here...) Things to account for might include:

How much space does a Kerbal have to themselves?

Are there empty crew spots?

Are there single-Kerbal parts that a Kerbal can spend alone time in?

Is exercise space available?

Are there companions at all and how compatible are their attributes?

Stupid Kerbals might not get irritated as easily but would have a hard time working with others and, in turn, irritate smart Kerbals. Smart Kerbals have great efficiency (use less resources) but require more space to stave off boredom. Courageous Kerbals might have an easier time keeping fit and avoid annoyance easier. Under those considerations, I'd define two extra variables for Kerbals, Irritability and Fitness, that would fluctuate over time. Fitness would help stave off Irritability, time alone could help or hinder, good companions would reduce and bad companions would increase. Milestones and successes would also help reduce irritability.

I'd also have a pretty wide baseline from the two stock stats, maybe 0.35~0.65 or so, to define "averageness". Kerbals with those sorts of attributes could do most missions with complete success and not provide many player worries. The outliers, whether better or worse, should challenge the player.

[BFGfreak]

I'm thinking that there should also be ways to regain sanity such as successfully establish a non solar orbit around a planet or moon, landing, and docking, that way successes will increase crew moral and failures such as parts exploding, a crewman dying, or being stuck on a ship with no fuel will lower moral. Being alone in a cramped capsule would have a detrimental effect to moral while having a few buds and more comfortable living spaces will increase moral (and delta-V costs) Having experianced crewmen will raise moral while a full inexperianced crew will have lower moral. I'm also not fond of sanity degrading if all is going according to plan, so a comfortable ship with a few experianced crewmen mixed in with plenty of delta V shouldn't have any sanity issues on their way from Moho to Eeloo, while a ship that is missing a few crew due to death and is low on fuel and filled with rookies will be in full panic mode on their trip back from Duna to Kerbin, but that crew would regain sanity once they establish a stable kerbin orbit and have a successful docking, with more once they get a better fuel situation.

[problemecium]

I second the motion for an aging / breeding mechanic. I find it a little weird when I see people with saves spanning 60+ years and having Jebediah & co. still alive and healthy, seemingly not having aged a day. But perhaps large colony ships could stay afloat in the face of Kerbal mortality by spawning new Kerbals every few years. No, we don't need Kerbal ***; who are we to say they don't reproduce asexually?

[Krevsin]

Were I to design this, I would probably go the route of tracking how well Kerbals got along with each other rather than some raw "sanity" value (it's not entirely Call of Cthulhu up in here...) Things to account for might include:

How much space does a Kerbal have to themselves?

Are there empty crew spots?

Are there single-Kerbal parts that a Kerbal can spend alone time in?

Is exercise space available?

Are there companions at all and how compatible are their attributes?

Stupid Kerbals might not get irritated as easily but would have a hard time working with others and, in turn, irritate smart Kerbals. Smart Kerbals have great efficiency (use less resources) but require more space to stave off boredom. Courageous Kerbals might have an easier time keeping fit and avoid annoyance easier. Under those considerations, I'd define two extra variables for Kerbals, Irritability and Fitness, that would fluctuate over time. Fitness would help stave off Irritability, time alone could help or hinder, good companions would reduce and bad companions would increase. Milestones and successes would also help reduce irritability.

I'd also have a pretty wide baseline from the two stock stats, maybe 0.35~0.65 or so, to define "averageness". Kerbals with those sorts of attributes could do most missions with complete success and not provide many player worries. The outliers, whether better or worse, should challenge the player.

I'd love to see a system like this, mostly because it's not entirely meter-based.

[Whovian]

that is from doctor who (To be more specific Episode The Big Bang, second season with Matt smith, season finale, and yes i like doctor who)

Nope; episode The Wedding of River Song, season 6.

[EuSouONumero345]

The episode which he tricks his death and causes a massive collapse of time.

Also,rep point for your username+knowing DW stuff.

[Helix935]

Nope; episode The Wedding of River Song, season 6.

oh whoops i was thinking of something else at the time sorry

Edit: Also for this mod could it be possible to have like parties before the beginning of a launch to allow for higher morale at the start

[123nick]

i think it should be somewhat dependent on ship design. like if you have 1 kerbal in a 1 man lander can for a trip longer than kerbin orbit and back, he will go insane and pilot the rocket into KSC. but if you have like, 3 people in a 4 man hitchhiker, everything is fine because the kerbals have friends and extra space to sit in. great right? also this plus the 4 and 2 ideas would be great!

[Whirligig Girl]

I love this idea so much!