0.23.5 complaining?

[soldieroffilth]

So there are a couple of people complaining about the new parts and how they "throw the balance of the game off". This might be true in sandbox mode but I think that some of us have gotten too used to judging the games balance based off of sandbox mode. We have career mode now and that is really about the only point of balance that needs to be worried about. Sandbox is a testing ground to try those things out that we are not sure if they will work or not because eventually, career mode will probably irrevertable consequences.

Now if any of us sat down and played this game only on career mode, I imagine that we would have a sigh of relief once we unlocked the SLS, or even the new ion engines.

[PhaserArray]

As a player who uses mods (read: mod addict), I don't think they're too unbalanced.

[Xetalim]

This happens with all games:

People ask for a feature

Devs make the feature

People complain about the new feature

[Kasuha]

The thing is, devs were clearly aware that new engines will stand out. They mentioned it number of times before the release. So it was not a fluke, there was reason to leave it that way. It's funny how some people still want to "fix" that.

[Benjpalmer]

This happens with all games:

People ask for a feature

Devs make the feature

People complain about the new feature

It's universal with all fandoms, not just games.

[Albert VDS]

The good thing about KSP is that you don't need to be a mod expert to change the parts to your liking.

Personally I like the current configuration of parts in 0.23.5.

[jwenting]

This happens with all games:

People ask for a feature

Devs make the feature

People complain about the new feature

make that: the people who asked for the feature complain about the feature.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I truely refuse to complain about the new engines allthough I feel very confused about them.

They make the Mainsails and Skippers totally obsolete because they have way higher thrust and a great ISP.

Let me just try to express what I mean:

LV-T30 Liquid Fuel Engine (small)

Mass: 1,25t

Thrust: 215kN

TWR: 17.5

ISP: 320/370

Rockomax "Mainsail" Liquid Engine (large)

Mass: 6,0t

Thrust: 1500kN

TWR: 25.5

ISP: 280/330

S3 KS-25x4 Engine Cluster (huge)

Mass: 9,75t

Thrust: 3200kN

TWR: 33,5

ISP: 320/360

The most crucial thing is, that the KS-25x4's ISP is almost the same as the one of the LV-T45's but you have to put 15 of them on your Rocket to achieve the equivalent of Thrust allthough you would have to lift 9 more tonnes.

But that does not matter at all, because as your ISP rises during ascent, the Engines is able to compensate greatly.

The Devs Intention was, to cut the number of parts down that you would use in your ascent-stage to keep the Gamers Focus on the Payload.

But that means, that we can now leave all our hardly achieved knowledge behind how to squeeeeze the last meter of dV out of our Rocket which is in my Opinion a step back in an educational perspective.

I dont mean to rant about the new parts. I just want to make clear why the make me feel weird about them.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[Liowen]

There are some who think that they need a certain bar that separates them from other players, and make them the unique "snowflakes" of players. This same thing happened at .23 when RAPIERS came out many complained that it made SSTO's too easy, and the engines were "overpowered'. It will happen more and more as the game develops sadly, and the forums will have more negative posts that things are either overpowered or not as good as, in the players mind who has never developed game in their life, could be to them.

[uui8457]

Originally, the mainsail and skipper were designed to be heavy first-stage engines. Now with the addition of the SLS engines, they could take the role of larger transfer stages. If only they didn't have such a low ISP. It really needs to be tweaked.

[Red Iron Crown]

There are some who think that they need a certain bar that separates them from other players, and make them the unique "snowflakes" of players. This same thing happened at .23 when RAPIERS came out many complained that it made SSTO's too easy, and the engines were "overpowered'. It will happen more and more as the game develops sadly, and the forums will have more negative posts that things are either overpowered or not as good as, in the players mind who has never developed game in their life, could be to them.

As I recall, when RAPIERs were introduced there were people calling them overpowered and people calling them underpowered, which is probably a good sign that the balance was good.

[Spartwo]

The fuel tanks don't follow the pattern either,doubling each time and the largest previous size is equal to the smallest current size(with the exception of the toroidal tank unless you count that as a .5m part,which I do.

So I think it should have went...

-2880

-5760

-11520

EDIT:^I thought they were spot on.Lower Isp,thrust than an aerospike,Lower Isp,thrust than a jet engine but lower mass and ease of use.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Spartwo

[Albert VDS]

I truely refuse to complain about the new engines allthough I feel very confused about them.

They make the Mainsails and Skippers totally obsolete because they have way higher thrust and a great ISP.

If you play sandbox then there are a lot of obsolete parts, mainly because you are not restricted in what you can use.

Naturally you use the parts with the best stats and avoid the others.

In career mode you are forced to use the parts you have unlocked, so you wont be able to make that choice unless you unlock it all.

[The Space]

Yeah I find it funny how some people are already complaining about "overpowered parts" just couple of days after the release of 0.23.5 even though the devs said many times that the new parts would be bigger and more powerful than the ones we had before.

The new parts are the way they are because that's how developers wanted them to be.

[magnemoe]

Most of the complaining is that the new parts and stronger joints make launching payloads over 50 ton easy.

Previously it was an challenge lift something weighting 100 ton to orbit, with the new parts its easy, also easier to launch long items who was hard previously as it was unstable.

In short if you enjoyed the challenge by launching large ships you will find the challenge pretty much gone,

[r4pt0r]

is ARM stock? if it is they should be balanced a bit. if its a mod then the mod maker can do as they please.

[Red Iron Crown]

ARM is stock.

[r4pt0r]

well then the parts should follow the pattern set by the previous parts i would think. as it is all of them are outliers.

[Comrade Jenkens]

I'm fine with the new parts being powerful. Its just the fact that they have a very high ISP as well. I think that they should have a lower ISP and then a 3m upper stage engine should have been available with good ISP.

[vetrox]

Makes RSS alot easier to play without mods.

On standard ksp yes they do feel nice and meaty but that has been a godsend. Now i Have a "1 lifter fits all" and i can concentrate on the actual mission plan/objective instead of spending hours designing a new lifter stage.

Maybe we are all so used to the mainsail being the most powerfull engine but those who use alot of mods wont find them very different to what is available in mod packs.

The only criticism I have is the isp of the new engines. Depending on my payload I end up having this super powerfull high isp engine for nice short injection burns to the outer planets. I think they should alter the isp ever so slightly

[Random Tank]

What I think is the problem is the ISP of the new engines... Yes, they should be able to carry super heavy loads (although the KR-2L is taking the **** a bit), but the main lifter engine having a higher ISP (in Atm and Vac) than a Skipper is just plain silly... All I want them to do is to drop the efficiency of the S3 KS-25 and LFB to reasonable levels; sure, they can be better than the Mainsail, but not to the extent that they currently are. I really want to use the new engines, but the fact that it is much easier to get stuff into orbit AND you have more fuel left than if you used smaller engines just takes any challenge away in my eyes, making them not fun to use.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

If you play sandbox then there are a lot of obsolete parts, mainly because you are not restricted in what you can use.

Naturally you use the parts with the best stats and avoid the others.

In career mode you are forced to use the parts you have unlocked, so you wont be able to make that choice unless you unlock it all.

I only need 1 or 2 days of casual gaming to unlock the techtree. From there on the game is Sandbox-Science until the next Update hits.

[Padishar]

In short if you enjoyed the challenge by launching large ships you will find the challenge pretty much gone,

Not gone, you just have to go bigger for the same challenges. My Mk2 class E asteroid tug is about 425t payload to LKO. Even using the new parts in a 13 stack asparagus configuration (the total launch mass of the ship is about 2400t, almost the same as the asteroid it is going to be moving), the launcher only just makes it to LKO when you fly a good ascent profile. It took me 3 attempts before I managed to make it with enough fuel left to de-orbit the lifter and then I realised I forgot the electricity supply...

[Superfluous J]

I only need 1 or 2 days of casual min-max gaming to unlock the techtree. From there on the game is Sandbox-Science until the next Update hits.

There, I fixed that for you.

I played for about a half hour to an hour a day for several months and only recently unlocked the entire tech tree. Granted, I had a restriction of only unlocking one tech node per successful mission, but I didn't get enough science to unlock everything until I was ready to unlock everything. How did I manage this feat? I just played the game and didn't try to maximize my science gain.

It was one of the more enjoyable experiences I've ever had with a computer.

[soldieroffilth]

Not gone, you just have to go bigger for the same challenges. My Mk2 class E asteroid tug is about 425t payload to LKO. Even using the new parts in a 13 stack asparagus configuration (the total launch mass of the ship is about 2400t, almost the same as the asteroid it is going to be moving), the launcher only just makes it to LKO when you fly a good ascent profile. It took me 3 attempts before I managed to make it with enough fuel left to de-orbit the lifter and then I realised I forgot the electricity supply...

Another good example of challenge is the "single burn to Duna" challenge that was suggested in Scott Manleys GDC interview with the KSP devs. Why not a single burn to Jool challenge? The thing to take away from this is that we need to make our own challenges instead of asking the devs to make them for us, that has sort of been what KSP is about. How far can get on this single stage? Whats it going to take to get to Eeloo? Whats the heaviest thing I can lift in to space? From where I am sitting the intent behind KSP from day one was to provide an environment for players to explore, but it would be up to them to figure out how to get there. Big engines like the SLS just mean that setting up a colony on Laythe is now a bit more practical. Personally though, I play KSP for the mission planning and less for the space flight, so the SLS is nice addition, especially for low end laptops like my own.

IMO, the rockets and Ion engines are fine, they accurately emulate the natural progression of rockets, the history of KSP is actually a pretty accurate portrayal of human rocket science history.