The mobile processing lab is terrible.

[Seret]

1) The science module is manned. Chances are you'll be bringing those kerbals back to kerbal eventually. If so, you might as well take the raw experiments.

Why? You don't get anything extra for it. This is only a problem for RPers and folks using life support mods. I even have a rule for Jeb, he never goes back to Kerbin. He's a spaceman, once he's up there that's where he lives. I only bring the others back is if I need someone to ride a pod full of science down, and that would be whoever rode it up. Bringing a lab crew back would just be a pain, so why bother?

[MrWizerd]

On earth we send experiments to an orbital lab to GAIN science experience, a lot if not most of these experiments mean more when observed in space in a fully stocked lab by trained humans and results often transmitted home to earth. Some things come back more analysis but others would be useless if brought home. Like we wouldn't send a thermometer to space take a reading and bring it home to take that reading because on earth it wouldn't reflect what it read in space.

here, I think us were the disconnect is, players assume, due to lack of information that Kerbins operate in a similar manner but they don't fit some reason they get more information by having the object come back, maybe it's some psychic Tele presence or something because I don't know how else items in space get a reading of some numbers and that data is worth less than the numbers it would show them even if it's state was frozen as it was in space some how, numbers are numbers...

So I think that when people think space lab they think an object that I'd the same as its terrestrial counterpart and that they should get more than a 15% boost after all humans get more experience for space labs.

What newer players don't get was this was added after the science nerf to address several issues that showed after they realized gaining some thousands of science On first flight was a bit O.P.

[archont]

Why? You don't get anything extra for it. This is only a problem for RPers and folks using life support mods. I even have a rule for Jeb, he never goes back to Kerbin. He's a spaceman, once he's up there that's where he lives. I only bring the others back is if I need someone to ride a pod full of science down, and that would be whoever rode it up. Bringing a lab crew back would just be a pain, so why bother?

Correct. As I mentioned, life support is one of the elements currently missing from stock KSP. I've sent Eeloo missions that took nearly a decade, with a single kerbal stuck in a dinky mk1 command pod, because I could. Currently there's no reason to use unmanned probes - you lose EVA capability as well as EVA and crew report science for what is ultimately a small weight increase. This is a balance issue that will be addressed sometime in the future. The life support mod is still rough around the edges with poor UI integration - though it gets the numbers in the right ballpark.

Speaking of sending science back - if I can pack a pod with 6 temperature scans, 6 soil samples, 6 goo results and 6 science JR results, I will. Once processed, do those science results override each other?

[Sirrobert]

Correct. As I mentioned, life support is one of the elements currently missing from stock KSP. I've sent Eeloo missions that took nearly a decade, with a single kerbal stuck in a dinky mk1 command pod, because I could. Currently there's no reason to use unmanned probes - you lose EVA capability as well as EVA and crew report science for what is ultimately a small weight increase. This is a balance issue that will be addressed sometime in the future. The life support mod is still rough around the edges with poor UI integration - though it gets the numbers in the right ballpark.

Speaking of sending science back - if I can pack a pod with 6 temperature scans, 6 soil samples, 6 goo results and 6 science JR results, I will. Once processed, do those science results override each other?

What makes you think it's a ballance issue that manned missions are better?

The Lab requiring crew to opperate is a pritty good indication that the devs want manned flight to be the main aspect if you ask me

[HeadHunter67]

The fact that the first thing you unlock in Career Mode is the Mk I Pod is the best indication that they wanted manned flight to be the main aspect.

Well, that, and the game isn't called "Unmanned Space Program".

[andrewas]

What makes you think it's a ballance issue that manned missions are better?

The balance issue is that unmanned missions are pointless. There should be some situations where unmanned ships are the better option. Long duration manned missions should be more expensive, radiation should be a problem around Jool, there should be some experiments that don't benefit from being returned. I'd love to send out a voyager type mission, returning images of every planet and moon it passes. Currently I can't do that without carrying many redundant experiments.

But this is something that can be polished up when career mode is more complete. Or in realism mods.

Edited April 21, 2014 by andrewas

[Seret]

The balance issue is that unmanned missions are pointless. There should be some situations where unmanned ships are the better option.

Unmanned probes don't have to come back to complete their mission, which simplifies things hugely. Eve is the ultimate example; it's a doddle to get science from it with an unmanned mission but a mare with a manned one.

Tbh a good percentage of my game is unmanned. I only send along a Kerbal in a can if I'm trying to get some science that necessitates it. Kerbals are just dead weight most of the time.

[Superfluous J]

Unmanned probes don't have to come back to complete their mission, which simplifies things hugely. Eve is the ultimate example; it's a doddle to get science from it with an unmanned mission but a mare with a manned one.

The arguement you're replying to is that there's no in-game penalty to NOT returning a manned mission (as opposed to NOT returning a probe) and you get the benefit of surface samples, EVA reports, and Crew Reports.

[Franklin]

Has anyone actually crunched the numbers on the efficacy of manned vs. unmanned vessels? From a pure min-max perspective you'd think sending up a tiny OKTO2, solar panel and antennae would far outweigh getting a huge MK1-2 up to wherever you're collecting points and back.

Does the loss of EVA/crew reports and surface samples give balance to manned vs. unmanned missions? I would doubt it when you can send a second Science Jr. and 2 more Goo canisters for less weight than a Mk1-2 alone.

I guess there's the loss of re-packaging parachutes, but that's hard to factor into a raw numeric value.

[KerikBalm]

I think the science Juniors are stupid... what is the materials bay anyway?

IMO, they should function a bit like the lab-> you get a transmission boost.

Then the manned mobile lab is what you need to clean experiments, and returning data to the mobile lab give you a huge science boost... to something like 90%.

It is a bit pointless now. Every instrument except the goo and science jr is fully reusable. The goo + materials bay adds up to 1/10th the mass of a processing lab.

I have started using it around the mun and minmus with a lander that I keep refueling and cleaning out, but then I tried just stacking on a bunch of goo+ mat bay packages, and that worked just as well (discarding each one after use, picking up a new one upon docking) - but then its limited to 9 such pacakges before the mobile lab becomes more attractive...

except using disposable science Jrs and goo canisters means that you can discard them before ascent+rendevous, whereas to use the lab requires hauling them to orbit...

Opps given the mass ratios of the craft, this often means you'd need to visit 20 or so biomes to break even (less on gilly or minmus, many more on tylo or especially eve)

I suppose the transmission boost is nice for places farther away than kerbin orbit... more science you can use "now" as opposed to many months later when the ship returns.

As long as other planets only have 1 biome, there isn't much point in taking it.

I really think we need an unmanned version that you could leave, for example, on the surface of Eve or Tylo (granted, returns from Tylo aren't so hard)

[HeadHunter67]

Sending more instruments doesn't give you more data to collect. They're basically redundant in the same biome.

[cantab]

Has anyone actually crunched the numbers on the efficacy of manned vs. unmanned vessels? From a pure min-max perspective you'd think sending up a tiny OKTO2, solar panel and antennae would far outweigh getting a huge MK1-2 up to wherever you're collecting points and back.

I don't know about a theoretical calculation, but empirically you could look at the results from the cheap science challenge, http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74271-Optimally-Efficient-Science-Mission-Challenge. So far it seems the manned missions are winning out. Crew and EVA reports are good science for low cost, and a Mk-1 Pod isn't that heavy. Then again my unmanned mission isn't yet finished. Of course it's all rather influenced by the current screwy part costs.

[Nemrav]

Let this one die where it stands

[Franklin]

I don't know about a theoretical calculation, but empirically you could look at the results from the cheap science challenge, http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74271-Optimally-Efficient-Science-Mission-Challenge. So far it seems the manned missions are winning out. Crew and EVA reports are good science for low cost, and a Mk-1 Pod isn't that heavy. Then again my unmanned mission isn't yet finished. Of course it's all rather influenced by the current screwy part costs.

That's perfect, thank you.

[Franklin]

Also, assuming my math is correct, from a purely top-level fuel/time efficiency perspective, to wring 90%~ of total science value out of Goo/SciJr modules through transmissions, you need to bring along 7 Goos and 11 SciJrs, the total mass of which would come to 3.25t.

The MPL weighs 3.5t, plus you'd need to drag along at least one Jr and Goo, so total minimal weight would be 3.85t, and this method would still require multiple tests as the MPL doesn't provide a 100% return on science.

I'd be willing to argue within that example taking along a stockpile of modules still outweighs dragging along an MPL. But in the same breath, surface samples and EVA reports give a real big chunk of science, so I think perhaps sending along a Mk1 over a probe with your 11 SciJrs and 7 Goos, transmitting everything, and returning with just the Mk1 pod would be the most efficient. Take nothing you don't need, drop everything you've used.

edit: you could take it one step further and send along a Kerbal strapped to an EAS on top of an OKTO2 so you can shave off that much more mass over the MK1 pod.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Franklin

[Superfluous J]

Also, assuming my math is correct, from a purely top-level fuel/time efficiency perspective, to wring 90%~ of total science value out of Goo/SciJr modules through transmissions, you need to bring along 7 Goos and 11 SciJrs, the total mass of which would come to 3.25t.

Are you comparing this to a manned mission that doesn't return as well? You can't transmit 100% (or 90%) of the total value of any biome's science*, you can only transmit like 25% or 30% of most experiments. The mobile lab kicks an extra 10% to that which is another benefit to bringing it.

I never bother to bring more than one goo or science jr (or any other experiment) to a biome. For the reusable stuff, you transmit a reading and then bring a reading back. For goo and jr, I just take a reading and bring it back. Since 0.23 came out I almost never send non-returning anything out there.

*Crew reports and eva reports can transmit for 100% but you won't get those with a probe

[Franklin]

Well in that case I was assuming it was an unmanned, non-returning mission. My (admittingly quick & dirty) math assumed you can transmit 30% of total science value for Goos, and 20% for SciJrs, requiring you to drag along multiple modules to transmit multiple times for diminishing returns until you've transmitted 90% of total science value.

If surface samples are being considered valuable enough to warrant a manned/returning mission, then packing 11 SciJrs, transmitting their tests and just leaving them behind, and only dragging back the lone Kerbal with his fistful of sand still probably makes the most sense in terms of fuel efficiency.

But I'm taking into consideration actual time a player needs to stare at their screen, in which case non-returning missions are faster without question, and I'm pretty confident sending 11 SciJrs and 7 Goos is far faster than a) collecting and returning or collecting, returning to orbit, cleaning with the MPL, and repeating that a half-dozen times.

Even if the MPL's brought down to the surface and returning to orbit after every experiment isn't a fuel/time issue, the MPL still doesn't return 100% science, so you're still losing some percentage of your science value over a return to Kerbin.

[Superfluous J]

Well in that case I was assuming it was an unmanned, non-returning mission. My (admittingly quick & dirty) math assumed you can transmit 30% of total science value for Goos, and 20% for SciJrs, requiring you to drag along multiple modules to transmit multiple times for diminishing returns until you've transmitted 90% of total science value.

If surface samples are being considered valuable enough to warrant a manned/returning mission, then packing 11 SciJrs, transmitting their tests and just leaving them behind, and only dragging back the lone Kerbal with his fistful of sand still probably makes the most sense in terms of fuel efficiency.

But I'm taking into consideration actual time a player needs to stare at their screen, in which case non-returning missions are faster without question, and I'm pretty confident sending 11 SciJrs and 7 Goos is far faster than a) collecting and returning or collecting, returning to orbit, cleaning with the MPL, and repeating that a half-dozen times.

Even if the MPL's brought down to the surface and returning to orbit after every experiment isn't a fuel/time issue, the MPL still doesn't return 100% science, so you're still losing some percentage of your science value over a return to Kerbin.

It doesn't take THAT long to come home instead, and considering you can get about 3x the science for simply using 2 goos and jrs (instead of 7 and 11 respectively), and transmitting one and bringing the other home, then a return mission is 3x the science for - what - maybe half as much more work? Less? Note his doesn't even require a lab.

And we've kind of glossed over multiple biomes, be they the different biomes on mun and minmus (and soon all planets I assume) or the multiple moons of Jool. Sure sending your 7/11 probe to Moho's reasonable, but how sure are you that sending 12 of them to Mun is less time consuming than sending a single large lab and one each of the goos and jrs? Or 2 each if you really want to maximize return?

[cantab]

Well in that case I was assuming it was an unmanned, non-returning mission. My (admittingly quick & dirty) math assumed you can transmit 30% of total science value for Goos, and 20% for SciJrs, requiring you to drag along multiple modules to transmit multiple times for diminishing returns until you've transmitted 90% of total science value.

It doesn't work quite like that, unfortunately. The transmission limit is basically a cap. So no matter how many goo canisters you run and transmit, you'll never get more than 30% of the science you could from returning a bunch of goo canister results. The lab increases the cap, by I believe 15 percentage points for the goo, but it's still a hard limit with the only way to get the rest being to return it.

[Franklin]

If it's a hard limit of 30% then yeah, my math's blown to **** and returning to Kerbin makes more sense.

[Axela]

Hi, In the second try to land on the Mun I crashed the ship (engine and fuel tanks), the mobile processing lab detached from the control module but is intact on the Mun. I've 3 Kerbals alive, 1 in the control module and 1 in the mobile processing lab. The transmitting modules and batteries are on the mobile processing lab but I can't it make the transfer of the data... I can store or get data from EVA report and Mun samples took by one of the Kerbals but I cannot send them to home...

Only the control module can send data?

[KerbMav]

Though I mostly agree with the sentiment that manned missions are supposedly always return mission anyway and the mere reusability of two science parts seems a bit feeble, I also think that processing and transmitting the data once and returning another instance of the same experiment is superior to just returning an experiment once.

Does anyone have hard data on this?

If the lab can hold the same experiment-biome-combo twice - how can they all be returned without landing the lab?

This issue keeps coming up and I also made a post under suggestions.

[Superfluous J]

Though I mostly agree with the sentiment that manned missions are supposedly always return mission anyway and the mere reusability of two science parts seems a bit feeble, I also think that processing and transmitting the data once and returning another instance of the same experiment is superior to just returning an experiment once.

Does anyone have hard data on this?

Hard data? No. But in my experience one transmit (without processing first) followed by a return gets a lot of the science. Far less is left than it's worth to go back and get.

I'm going to be starting a new career very soon (Like, today, possibly) for a new YouTube series and I'll be concentrating very hard on getting the most science I can. Until I get Solar panels (and better science instruments) I'll be a lot of bringing home all the science, but I expect by my third mission (I'm going to be kinda min/maxing it) I'll be doing the "transmit one, carry one" strategy and I'll pay attention to the actual numbers.

If the lab can hold the same experiment-biome-combo twice - how can they all be returned without landing the lab?

You have to land something with the two experiments, either the lab or two capsules, each with a set of experiments. The one time I bothered bringing home 2 of things, I used this latter approach.

[KerbMav]

Hard data? No. But in my experience one transmit (without processing first) followed by a return gets a lot of the science. Far less is left than it's worth to go back and get.

I'm going to be starting a new career very soon (Like, today, possibly) for a new YouTube series and I'll be concentrating very hard on getting the most science I can. Until I get Solar panels (and better science instruments) I'll be a lot of bringing home all the science, but I expect by my third mission (I'm going to be kinda min/maxing it) I'll be doing the "transmit one, carry one" strategy and I'll pay attention to the actual numbers.

You have to land something with the two experiments, either the lab or two capsules, each with a set of experiments. The one time I bothered bringing home 2 of things, I used this latter approach.

Using two capsules ... hmm ... I also added the science storage Module to all probe cores - a bit unrealistic for rock samples, but ...

I think the science container can also hold multiples of everything, but I did not use it for quite some time.

At least using FScience it was possible to move multiples of the same experiment into any science container and it also circumvents the one-shotiness of Goo and Science Junior.

Ship Manifest claims to observe the .23 restrictions but I have not used it yet for science transfers - I had to MM my station mod parts for CLS first.

It still remains questionable if this is desired/intended gameplay?

The lab taking more than one of the same might be reasoned by the wish to enable the player to process and transmit one of them and keep the other - but the UI is quite terrible for this, as we have to click through every stored report after each expedition returns e.g. from the surface of a planet.

Yet it still keeps within the reasoning of transmitting a (preliminary) report to KSC and being ordered to bring some more rocks home because the data looks promising.

Keeping an eye on your channel!

[Col_Jessep]

As long as the processing lab is only useful for transmissions it will stay mostly useless. Yes, you can construct fringe cases where it is useful but that is because you designed the mission around the lab to make it useful. You are better off bringing several sets of science bays/goos on a small lander and returning the experiments.

Transmitting anything but crew or EVA reports is usually a sign of bad mission design. The only cases I can think of where returning 100% is not preferable are Eve and Jool descends. You always want a Kerbal for reports and surface samples and if you want to return him to Kerbin (I always do) the science can hitchhike for free anyway.

I quite like the science lab due to it's aesthetics, it is one of the nicer looking stock parts, but I haven't used it even once since it was introduced.