Should KSP have a Delta-V readout?

[Superfluous J]

As a compromise, I'd accept maneuver nodes listing their requirements in units of liquid fuel.

[Kerbonautical]

Personally I'm gonna go with yes. In all honesty I thought this was coincidence that we don't have them yet rather than a design choice. I consider the addition of one mod that can support such readouts as Delta V and horizontal/vertical speed etc.

The idea of trying to fly without them just seems incredibly silly to me. I wouldn't want to play a flight sim with no readouts other then speed and height from sea level, I wouldn't feel too comfortable playing an FPS without at least an iron sight, so I don't see why we're expected to be flying blind. I don't know much about NASA, but I'd hazard a guess that they rely on more than orbital/surface speed and distance from sea level. In fact I have Scott Manley's video's to thank for even bothering to discover KSP properly, if it wasn't for that I never would have found the extra readouts provided by MJ.

Without that data the game would have been shelved permanently within the first 20 hours, so yes to me it should be stock. the game was practically unplayable to me before it. Also I like to fly from IVA, you can't do that without substantial data about your Delta V, speed, height etc.

[Liowen]

As a compromise, I'd accept maneuver nodes listing their requirements in units of liquid fuel.

Or using the right area gives a green box if you have enough to do said burn and red if you will likely run out. Personally I build for the fun of it, and I know if I had the numbers to see how bad my designs were I would never launch anything. I can admit some of my things are way over engineered for what they need to do, however I do this in the event of anything going wrong.

Heck I am sure NASA puts a little extra in the tank.....bonus if you get the movie reference LOL.

[Jas1126]

A resounding YES! More information is always welcome.

[Frank_G]

I think it'd be nice if information like this was unlocked by a series of different modules you unlock.

Very nice idea. You should post this as a suggestion

[lma0724]

I would like it very much.

[Uncle Mort]

An unequivocal yes: I would have stopped playing a long time ago without the delta-v statistics.

[DoctorCruz]

So a simple question...

Should Kerbal Space Program have a readout of some form, that shows you the calculated/estimated Delta-V of your craft?

This is currently available in at least two plugins I know of, maybe more. Personally I have been using MechJeb for a long time. If I had to pick one little thing that would be most painful to do without, then it would be the simple delta-v readout. It is effectively the real measure of how much "fuel" you have. Give me that readout and a delta-v map, and the lack of the rest of MJ is mostly an inconvenience.

There are good arguments each way. I know Squad have avoided a lot of data readouts as a design principal, with good reasons. Nonetheless, you are still given many key values, like velocity and all the stats in the resources tab. Performance is another consideration... I know the MJ calculations have an impact.

Opinions?

for me this is a must have feature

[TMS]

also here is a source for that quote http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/23/kerbal-space-program-dev-on-random-solar-systems-the-joy-of-failure-and-the-cult-of-steam/ the bit on the dv indicator is underneath the picture of Felipe

The dev position on this is pretty much just one of those things that almost everyone kinda scratches their head about and wonders how the hell they came to that point of view. Clever guys, but they're quite clearly wrong about this.

Having to play the game constantly in map mode because of a lack of readouts is not charming or 'magical'. It's annoying.

Yes, the game needs this (and other basic readouts) as an optional stock... to go alongside the rather isolated node DV readout on the navball.

[bsalis]

Other people have said this but I think a nice compromise would be to have it something that you unlock in career mode (mid-late tech tree?)

I actually like that idea too. I was thinking much the same for the maneuver nodes when they were added. In that they would be only available when you have the part for it (ie. nav computer perhaps?). Much the same as you needed a part for [A]SAS back then.

For newcomers, being instantly presented with dV info might make them scared by the apparent need to get all mathematica

Agree. That's is my understanding of why the game is sparse on numeric readouts. However, the Information tab opened with th "i" button could be a good place to put it. The mass and part count are already there. It is not an obvious feature, and it's closed by default.

There are some users who like to fly by eye/intuition and not be told anything, this would break their style of play.

But they still rely upon velocity, altitude, resource tab, navball and map view for information. Personally I don't think a delta-v readout (in VAB our outside) was need until the planets were added. Goofing up a Munshot is no biggie... possibly not even cause for a quickload. Planet missions are a different story.

In my mind the vanilla game should give you the information and tools necessary to access the vanilla content. I remember an interview a former community manager (Damion Rayne) did a long time ago, where he explained that (bugs aside), any failure should only be attributed to the player. So no random part failures for example. That is a game design principal. So for me it feels odd, that when you set yourself a goal of, say, a Jool return mission. That you don't even know if the craft you have on the pad can actually do it... in theory. There is still *plenty* of opportunity for "user error" even when you know the craft you have has enough delta-v for the mission.

[KvickFlygarn87]

Honestly, I'm with the devs on this one. Kind of ruins the trial and error part of the game!

[JimmyAgent007]

As someone who doesnt do any math beyond "That looks like it should be enough." before my flights i dont really mind that its not there, but i wouldnt mind having the option just so i can tweak things a bit. Or at least learn how inefficient my designs are.

[regex]

I say no because I agree with the dev's position of trial and error gameplay. Graduating from the fumbling around at the beginning to realizing that was important information was a huge learning step for me.

OTOH, what we really need is apo-/periapsis and time-to both displays in flight view so we don't have to switch to map mode all the time. A radar altimeter wouldn't hurt either.

[Padishar]

Honestly, I'm with the devs on this one. Kind of ruins the trial and error part of the game!

It can only ruin the trial and error part if that is a part the particular user finds enjoyable. If something is optional and the user decides to turn it on then presumably they find it more fun that way or they would turn it back off again. Personally, I don't find having to repeat missions (or even launches) just because you're a little short on thrust or fuel to be very much fun. There is still plenty of scope for trial and error what with structural issues and having to remember various parts etc...

As with most of these sorts of discussions, the best compromise is to include it as an option in the stock game or simply leave things as they are with mods providing this sort of feature. If the devs had to implement and maintain all these extra features it would slow down the development of things that really should be in the stock game...

[sewerbird]

I entirely think it shouldn't be part of the early-game in Career Mode, but when one has more parts to engage in more complex missions, I think a dV meter is a good and educative tool to have available. I would support a part that would give a very minimalistic dV (per stage) readout when right clicked (in flight or in VAB) which was unlocked in the tech tree approximately where the average player could be expected to have landed on the biomes of Mun/Minmus a few times. I would be less sure about providing Radar Altitude in the same manner: I'd prefer that to just be a toggle on our altimeter.

[condraj2]

The functionality of Engineer really needs to be rolled up in the stock game. Turn it on by default but make it an option to disable it for those who want to add some extra uncertainty to their endeavors. Simple as that.

[Wahgineer]

Yes, it should be added. Don't want to spoil the personal fun of guesswork? Then don't use it.

What we could also use is a simple launch window chart: it shows a list consisting of each planet, with a simple chart showing the year and day in which each launch window opens/closes. It also shows two launch windows: the departure window from kerbin to x planet, and the return window from x planet to kerbin.

[NobodyIP]

I entirely think it shouldn't be part of the early-game in Career Mode, but when one has more parts to engage in more complex missions, I think a dV meter is a good and educative tool to have available. I would support a part that would give a very minimalistic dV (per stage) readout when right clicked (in flight or in VAB) which was unlocked in the tech tree approximately where the average player could be expected to have landed on the biomes of Mun/Minmus a few times.

Agreed. The dV meter should be supplied in the Tech Tree only at the approximate point in which the player is after journeying to the Mun and Minmus, and is considering interplanetary missions. That way, it doesn't take away the fun of early trial-and-error while exploring the Kerbin system, nor would it confuse new players who don't have that firm a grasp on orbital mechanics yet.

[fireworks_display]

Havng just returned after a few months break I've really enjoyed doing the start of career mode without this info. When I last played I had mechjeb and a sheet of all the delta-v's required and it took a lot of fun and experimentation out of the earlier missions but I can foresee it being much needed once I start moving out of Kerbin's SOI.

I'd propose that it's gradually acquired from the tech tree, starting with nothing - not even delta-v on the maneuver nodes - progressing through adding this onto the nodes then into the design stage of the rocket where you only see the total delta-v for each stage and then having fully updating info during the flight itself.

This could tie into having an autopilot taking over the more basic feats at the same time enabling optimal launches and maneuvers at later stages.

I think this would lead to players starting with over-engineered rockets and then becoming more efficient and calculated as the tougher missions are planned (enabling maneuvers preplanned before launch for the very end stages would be nice too)

[Zeb]

Firstly:I think that we should have a dv-meter, but i think that it should only be available in IVA, like the radar altimeter!

This would provide added functionality to the IVA view, while still having the added difficulty that we see in landing using IVA view to get the radar data

Secondly: I Think I remember the devs talking about some "exploded view", that just might contain this data.

[Nemoricus]

Yes, please! However, it should be off by default, since it's something that players don't need at first.

Also, much of the information Kerbal Engineer shows, like Apoapsis, Periapsis, time to both of those, altitude from *terrain*, et cetera, should be something shown in the base game, too. They're immensely useful to have, and honestly? I want to watch my rocket fly, not constantly flip to map mode where I can't do that.

[rkman]

I voted no, because for me, KSP always was about figuring things out.

I suppose you are upset that Squad added maneuver nodes. You could just ignore delta-v and twr read outs, just like you can ignore maneuver nodes.

Firstly:I think that we should have a dv-meter, but i think that it should only be available in IVA, like the radar altimeter!

That sort of makes sense. On the other hand, currently vessel mass and delta-v (of maneuver nodes) is visible only outside of IVA (in map view).

Edited April 24, 2014 by rkman

[HafCoJoe]

Yes yes yes and yes! On the vote no for figuring things out, In Career you could add Delta V as an unlock or make it only available after running missions the specific engine a few times. - Like you actually gain information on the engines if you test with them!

[NecroBones]

Personally, I think the game should make a wealth of data available to those who want it, including dV estimates, burn times on available fuel, vessel mass and TWR, and so on. These could be completely optional displays that you have to assertively enable, and that would be fine, but you really do need these things if you want to do more than just trial and error. Many people don't care about the numbers, and that's fine, so like I said-- configurable option FTW.

[Kerbonautical]

Yes, it should be added. Don't want to spoil the personal fun of guesswork? Then don't use it.

What we could also use is a simple launch window chart: it shows a list consisting of each planet, with a simple chart showing the year and day in which each launch window opens/closes. It also shows two launch windows: the departure window from kerbin to x planet, and the return window from x planet to kerbin.

Yes Please! I never tend to bother with the interplanetary stuff that much myself as it requires too much hassle and guesswork. I'm sure there is some actual way to work it out easier, but I figure the average KSP player will not have access to that information