[WIP] Reorganized Tech Tree Alpha 0.2.0 Added NFT and MFT

[Jonnothin]

Alpha Test 0.2.0

Lots of adjustments to name a few:

• Added support for near future electrics, solar and propulsion.
  
• Added support for modular fuel tanks
  
• Readded stock nodes so every mod's parts should appear in the tree they just won't be where they should be.
  
• Fixed Infernal rebotics appearing elsewhere in the tree.
  
• lots of rearranging for the structural components, rcs and separators.
  
• full support for AIES, but it still needs work.
  
• lowered the cost to get to certain parts such as the stock rcs thruster.
  

0.2.x is going to change a lot of the tree, but testing is still going to be important.

Hi all, I've been working on a tech tree for the last few days and thought it was time to show a picture and explain what it's for. This tech tree is for spreading out the parts a lot more and increasing the amount of science required to finish the tech tree. Also the nodes revolve around getting more experiments which are in the middle of the tree.

This tech tree's goal is to help make a game with the mods I've been using more complete not to make it a grindfest or anything like that.

License: Creative Commons Share-Alike Non-Commercial Attribution (Basically you can use this and edit it to your heart's content as long as you give me credit). (Thanks to rhoark for pointing out that I had the wrong license here.)

Features:

• Reworked tech tree
  
• Increased overall science cost (somewhere around 130000 which might be too much) to account for KSPI, Station Science, Custom Biomes and Dmagic Orbital Science(hopefully without slowing the beginning down too much)
  
• Logically organized tech tree that spreads the parts around and allows the player to see what they're getting. (again hopefully)
  
• Maintain parts upgrades for KSPI without editing KSPI(this seems to be surprisingly easy)
  

Upcoming Features:

• Better space plane progression
  
• Make KW not required
  
• Node descriptions
  
• More intuitive part progression
  

Bugs:

None

Installation Instructions:

1. Start a new career mode game

2. Go to your ksp folder/save/yoursavegame

3. replace tree.cfg with my tree.cfg

Required Mods:

Station Science

DMagic Orbital Science

Custom Biomes Note: this may not be required in the final version, but the extra science probably helps. I intend to account for its science if possible.

KWRocketry

Treeloader

Supported Mods:

KSP Interstellar

Infernal Robotics

TAC Life Support

RealChute

Kethane

Deadly Reentry

B9 Aerospace

Mission Controller Extended

KAS

Kerbal Engineer Redux

VNG Parachute

Remote Tech2

SCANsat

MechJeb

AIES Aerospace

Spherical and Toroidal Tank Pack

Near Future Propulsion

If you have any suggestions or feedback especially on a name for this project or space plane progression please let me know.

These aren't all the mods I'm using, but these are most if not all of the mods that add parts. In fact some of these mods I don't use at all, but have added them from the request of others.

Thanks to all the developers of these mods and of course the developer of TreeEdit/Treeloader otherwise I may not have even attempted this.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Jonnothin

[CaptainKipard]

Required Mods:

That's me out then. I was hoping for a realistic tree where you start unmanned that doesn't "require" anything and instead just modifies parts to fit the tree.

[DMagic]

Increased overall science cost (somewhere around 130000 which might be too much) to account for KSPI, Station Science, Custom Biomes and Dmagic Orbital Science(hopefully without slowing the beginning down too much)

With the default pack of Custom Biomes I think there is around 300k science available (not counting the infinite, but impractical asteroid science). So 130k should be fine given all of the extra science that come with the other mods.

I'm not actually sure how much mine adds, I should probably figure that out sometime.

[CobaltWolf]

Looks very cool. Can't wait to check it out!

[sidfu]

best way is to make4 sure u leave the default nodes in that way it be comptiable with any mod then just have the mods u chageing be how u doing it

[KvickFlygarn87]

I might do a Let's play with this. You got anything against that?

[Superfluous J]

That's me out then. I was hoping for a realistic tree where you start unmanned that doesn't "require" anything and instead just modifies parts to fit the tree.

I would like this too, and came here wondering if this was "the one."

Question: How "required" are the "required mods?" Are they required just because they give you more science? If so, then I wonder how usable this tree would be in stock along with a tweaking of the science return rates of experiments?

Would that work, or is there something in this tree that will actually break the game or cause the tree to not work if I don't have those mods installed?

[CaptainKipard]

I would like this too, and came here wondering if this was "the one."

Yeah I think this has to be stressed a bit more. Mods like "Better than starting manned" are really guilty of this. That mod is really "focused" as FlowerChild likes to describe it. That's code for "restrictive". This kind of thing makes trees VERY mod-unfriendly.

Part of the problem is obviously the way that science has been implemented, but there is a way to get around it without forcing players to settle for your particular vision. It's unfortunately tedious to go through every part of every major mod to change the techrequired with Module Manager, but it's the only way that any kind of decent tree can be implemented. Hopefully if someone gets the ball rolling maybe mod authors will actually provide their own MM configs.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Jonnothin]

Hi all, it's good to see some feedback even though I don't have anything for you to see yet.

@KvickFlygarn87 I don't mind if you use this for a let's play ... in fact I might watch that.

@Dmagic would you happen to know if your mod works with custom biomes? because that would REALLY multiply the science.

@sidfu I think if you leave the TechID the same then it works.

@everyone wanting something compatible with stock or something else Really the problem with making a tech tree of any kind is how you want progression to happen. If you're not sure if certain parts are going to be there then you can't rely on them for progression which is the problem I have with my current modded game. So... the mods that would be required would be required because they help progression. In other words, not having certain mods (especially science mods) may make it impossible to finish the whole tree. My advice would be to either try out treeEdit (it really is easy, just time consuming) or make a feature request if you haven't already. Maybe someone will pick it up and I hope someone does.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Jonnothin

[Jonnothin]

Alpha Test 0.0.3 Available.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[DMagic]

@Dmagic would you happen to know if your mod works with custom biomes? because that would REALLY multiply the science.

Yeah, it works fine. Several of my experiments (the laser, drill and telescope) actually have science reports written specifically for the default biomes pack of Custom Biomes (my ScienceDefs.cfg file is getting really long, it's closing in on twice the length of the stock file:wink:). They also should work with any mod planets and have custom reports written for the Krag's planets.

[CaptainKipard]

@everyone wanting something compatible with stock or something else Really the problem with making a tech tree of any kind is how you want progression to happen. If you're not sure if certain parts are going to be there then you can't rely on them for progression which is the problem I have with my current modded game. So... the mods that would be required would be required because they help progression. In other words, not having certain mods (especially science mods) may make it impossible to finish the whole tree. My advice would be to either try out treeEdit (it really is easy, just time consuming) or make a feature request if you haven't already. Maybe someone will pick it up and I hope someone does.

All that talk about progression and dependency is the same thing as FlowerChild has said but it's nonsense mainly because:

a) The tree node costs could be balanced to be completable with only stock science.

You could easily make special nodes for mods that the player might or might not have, e.g. an Exomining branch, and a MM config for all the Kethane parts to fit inside that branch. Then people who don't have Kethane will see an empty node and wont research it. To make it idiot proof, just add a warning for those who don't have Kethane.

c) Even if there's not enough science to go around to research optional branches, there are many science mods out there to help with that.

Basically what I'm saying you don't need to make anything "required", you can make things optional and recommended, as long as you get the science cost balanced for the stock branches and maybe a few other tree nodes. Then recommend people add science mods to complete the tree if they need to, which not all of them will need to. People who use mods anyway wont mind adding one or two science mods anyway.

It's your choice obviously, it just looks like you're doing something similar to BTSM and I don't think it's sensible.

Also you should make progression open to the player.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[Superfluous J]

Basically what I'm saying you don't need to make anything "required"

I'm going to take a look at this in an otherwise stock game and see how it plays. I suspect the only thing that's actually "required" (in the sense that it won't run without it) is TreeLoader.

Then a quick MM config to modify the science you get from each experiment to scale them up or down should be all that's needed, along with perhaps a shuffling of the experiments to make sure something's available to do before science gathering becomes too scarce.

And with the open nature of the license, I'll of course put it somewhere to download and thank @Jonnothin for his work. After playing with my own tech tree for a little bit, I don't really like the thought of balancing each and every part and make all the nodes work together. This basic framework could be exactly what I need to get what I (and you) want: A custom tech tree without all the extra mods "required."

[Tommygun]

Alpha Test 0.0.3 Available.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

I have it loaded, but it keeps crashing when I leave the VAB to go back to the KSP facility Buildings screen.

Here are the crash logs if it helps any:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/2014-05-02_201706

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/za10diiz1fe3l66/-BN8srDPgi

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tommygun

[CobaltWolf]

Gave it a try tonight, I'm really digging the way it's set up. One thing though: It seems like you're basically required to get all the science from the Mun and Minmus before heading off towards other planets. Is that true? If it is perhaps some of the parts should be shuffled around a little.

[Jonnothin]

@DMagic Awesome.

@Cpt. Kipard I see what you're saying now. I have done what you're saying to some degree and I am trying to keep the required mods to a minimum. I need to figure out good way for the stock rocket engines to be arranged so that they still make sense. Basically I have more nodes than there are engines I think. Also I'm trying to make most of the science experiments be part of getting the next tier which might make some of the science mods be required anyway.

@5thHorseman Good for you! Technically, loading the tree shouldn't crash the game or anything if you don't have those mods. Those mods are "required" because they're part of the progression. You could try to play without them and see how far you can get. Then change the tree to make it work.

@Tommygun Your link isn't working for some reason. When are you installing the tree? Try installing the tree with the new career save game not loaded, if you haven't already. Is this a new game?

@CobaltWolf That's not my intention. I'll have to check those costs. The intention is to have to visit each a couple of times at most before going interplanetary.

[Tommygun]

@Tommygun Your link isn't working for some reason. When are you installing the tree? Try installing the tree with the new career save game not loaded, if you haven't already. Is this a new game?

I started a new game, then immediately quit and went to my saved game and then placed your tree into my saved game.

One more try with the links; I made two just in case:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/za10diiz1fe3l66/-BN8srDPgi

https://www.dropbox.com/home/2014-05-02_201706

Edit: I removed MechJeb2RPM for RasterPropMonitor and the issue seems to be gone.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tommygun

[CaptainKipard]

As someone who's "used" KSPI in the past, I'm a little scared to download this tree now, given that it's a requirement. That mod has a steep learning curve. I had it for a few months and never used it even once except for heat dissipation.

[CobaltWolf]

@CobaltWolf That's not my intention. I'll have to check those costs. The intention is to have to visit each a couple of times at most before going interplanetary.

I guess it depends on what interplanetary requires. I wanted, amongst other things, the higher end RemoteTech2 dishes and nuclear propulsion before leaving Kerbin. I will play through it again when I have another free day and see if I can do better.

[Jonnothin]

@Tommygun As I understand it mods are usually responsible for that error. It's means that there is probably a bug in it.

@Cpt. Kipard KSPI is mostly setup for the late game and I tried to keep as such. I think the only thing it really affects is the stock nuclear engine. At this point you would have to go through 2 empty nodes without KSPI to get it.

@CobaltWolf I'll take a look at it. You should be able to get dishes that can reach a least duna and eve, if not I'll change it. Though, I should probably move the dishes back a tier anyways in order for you to be able to reach the whole system sooner with unmanned probes and RemoteTech2. Nuclear propulsion (at least stock) takes more science to get to.

I'm thinking about changing how nuclear progression happens. If I change this then KSPI would not be required any more. It would still be supported though.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jonnothin]

Alpha Test 0.0.4 released.

KSPI is no longer required, but is still supported.

RemoteTech dishes have also been adjusted.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

[CobaltWolf]

Will download and give it a look soon. Can the new tree.cfg just be droppped into the save folder?

[Tommygun]

Haven't used the newest version yet, but I'm liking this a lot.

I am using Mission Controller Extended with it too and found that I needed to add LTech and KDEX: Kerbal Dust Experiment to the science 2, 3 and 4 spots.

With Mission Controller Extended you can't just spam a bunch of flights to get the science you need, so you need more science experiments per launch.

LTech needs to be rebalanced, as it gives two to three times too much science points though.

I also added a small fuel cell to the starting tech. It gives just enough power to keep the pod going if you don't use the reaction wheel.

I needed the power to keep the early pods up in space long enough to collect science and it consumes about 400 to 600 DeltaV of fuel to do it.

This is definitely much better than the stock tree. People will still need to tweak it a bit based on what they install.

[Jonnothin]

@CobaltWolf I think it has to be a new save but yes

@Tommygun I know what you mean, station science mod gives a lot of science by default and I can't decide if you it's too much yet or not.

[CobaltWolf]

Jonnothin, is there support for SCANsat? I cannot find them in the tree.