Devnote Tuesdays: The Yadda Yadda Yadda Edition

[KerbMav]

Felipe (HarvesteR):

I’m adding a “Test Flight†contract template, which will generate contracts to test parts in different situations, places and conditions.

This is one of the most complicated to add contracts, because not only it depends on which places you’ve been, it also depends on which parts you have researched, and where/how each part is used. It wouldn’t make sense to be asked to test parachutes in orbit, or wheels while splashed down… plus, not all parts make for interesting test subjects (not much fun in testing an inanimate piece of paneling), so we’re adding this in the most customizable way possible, so you get offered to test parts in ways that make sense. Not only that, you also get to test parts which you haven’t researched yet, which means we had to add a system to support these ‘experimental’ parts. The main difference when testing an experimental part is that you’ll get a limited amount of them. If you destroy them before completing the test, you will fail. In cases like SRBs, which are one-shot only, performing the test outside the target conditions won’t mean instant failure, but be prepared to recover that one-off prototype intact.

Speaking of recovery, there’s been a lot of progress done there as well. The “Science Summary†dialog is being overhauled into a complete “Mission Summaryâ€Â, which will show not only the recovered experiment data from a mission, but also the parts you recovered (and how much funds you got back from them), as well as crews. For experimental ‘prototype’ parts, recovery also re-stocks them so you get to launch them again, in case the contract is still incomplete.

1. Smells like at least one more variable needed in a part.cfg for the contract system to identify a viable part - or it checks parts for specific MODULEs.

2. Getting a limited amount of experimental parts smells like stockkeeping of parts, but

3. getting a refund for recovered parts contradicts this - unless it is a mixed system?

[Tw1]

Felipe (HarvesteR): This week I’ve mostly been working on setting up a new type of Contract, which I believe will be the most common contract you’ll encounter, which means it’s got to be something interesting. More specifically, I’m adding a “Test Flight†contract template, which will generate contracts to test parts in different situations, places and conditions.

Very interesting. I

'd like to hope something else could perhaps be second most common- Experiment contracts.

Investigating any major space mission should give ideas. For example, Cassini did a relativity experiment when it was opposite the Earth in solar orbit. Apollo-Soyuz had Apollo block the sun in a way the corona could be observed. Things that aren't so simple have as a button on a science part, or a science situation. Naturally, this would work a lot better once we have a few more basic space instruments- spectrometers, drills, etc

Or perhaps contracts could require you to make more detailed travels around a certain spot on a planet- that would be a good use for rovers. Exploration/data collection contracts- something to get you exploring a place in detail, not just hopping down and back up again, clicking a few things as you go. Though this should not preclude expanding science to make each instrument a lot more varied in how they must be operated, and providing a lot more continuous type data to collect, rather than just the discrete biomes system in place now.

At the moment, KSP is handling the engineering aspects of space travel well. However, science is lacking.

Speaking of recovery, there’s been a lot of progress done there as well. The “Science Summary†dialog is being overhauled into a complete “Mission Summaryâ€Â, which will show not only the recovered experiment data from a mission, but also the parts you recovered (and how much funds you got back from them), as well as crews. For experimental ‘prototype’ parts, recovery also re-stocks them so you get to launch them again, in case the contract is still incomplete.

This is sounding very cool.

[Superfluous J]

Jim (Romfarer): ...Calibri...

That is literally my favorite font.

Yes I'm sad enough to have a favorite font.

[Whirligig Girl]

Very interesting. I

'd like to hope something else could perhaps be second most common- Experiment contracts.

Investigating any major space mission should give ideas. For example, Cassini did a relativity experiment when it was opposite the Earth in solar orbit. Apollo-Soyuz had Apollo block the sun in a way the corona could be observed. Things that aren't so simple have as a button on a science part, or a science situation. Naturally, this would work a lot better once we have a few more basic space instruments- spectrometers, drills, etc

Maybe something like this: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/81953-Science-that-inherently-takes-time-and-that-s-okay

[Virtualgenius]

They should make the inland KSC the testing facility start of with basics and as you succeed it develops

[Caelib]

So ... where's Chad (C7) been since ARM update? Haven't seen an update from him since then.

[Rowsdower]

So ... where's Chad (C7) been since ARM update? Haven't seen an update from him since then.

Hidden in our secret laboratories.

He's around.

[regex]

Felipe (HarvesteR): Speaking of recovery, there’s been a lot of progress done there as well. The “Science Summary†dialog is being overhauled into a complete “Mission Summaryâ€Â, which will show not only the recovered experiment data from a mission, but also the parts you recovered (and how much funds you got back from them), as well as crews. For experimental ‘prototype’ parts, recovery also re-stocks them so you get to launch them again, in case the contract is still incomplete.

All this is for one type of contract only, so you can readily see just how enormous a task we’re facing here.

How specific is the recovery functionality to this single contract type? Will recovery be used elsewhere, like for non-contract launches?

[Superfluous J]

Felipe (HarvesteR): Speaking of recovery, there’s been a lot of progress done there as well. The “Science Summary†dialog is being overhauled into a complete “Mission Summaryâ€Â, which will show not only the recovered experiment data from a mission, but also the parts you recovered (and how much funds you got back from them), as well as crews. For experimental ‘prototype’ parts, recovery also re-stocks them so you get to launch them again, in case the contract is still incomplete.

How specific is the recovery functionality to this single contract type? Will recovery be used elsewhere, like for non-contract launches?

Based on the words I bolded, I read that as recovery (the button) will give you money back on all parts recovered and when one of those parts is associated with a contract (and made it to Mun, or LKO, or whatever), you'll complete the contract.

Hopefully now putting parachutes on booster stages will allow them to reach the ground intact.

[regex]

Based on the words I bolded, I read that as recovery (the button) will give you money back on all parts recovered and when one of those parts is associated with a contract (and made it to Mun, or LKO, or whatever), you'll complete the contract.

Based on this:

All this is for one type of contract only, so you can readily see just how enormous a task we’re facing here.

It's specific to one contract type. Why did you snip that out? It's very pertinent to the question I asked.

[Zipmafia]

Proof once again that the KSP community is one of the best. We were disappointed because of the lack of detail on our COMPLIMENTARY Devnote Tuesday, so SQUAD shelled out and got us our more specific information!!! SQUAD ROCKS!!! 0.24 sounds like it is going to be turning a few heads!!!

[federicoaa]

That is literally my favorite font.

Yes I'm sad enough to have a favorite font.

Mi favorite font is comic sans

Kidding, it's Times New Roman (I'm Ph.D. student and basically everything I write is using that font)

On: Thanks Felipe for the update, it seems career mode will become very interesting

[Superfluous J]

Based on this:

I'm not including it now because I'm lazy

It's specific to one contract type. Why did you snip that out? It's very pertinent to the question I asked.

I didn't snip it out. I didn't include it. this forum doesn't quote quotes so I had to go get the quote from the source. I neglected to grab that part as well. Sorry about that, it was not intentional.

I think it would be really weird for only one contract type to give you money back when you recover the craft with that contract on it. If that's the way recovery and money works I'll be very surprised.

[regex]

I think it would be really weird for only one contract type to give you money back when you recover the craft with that contract on it. If that's the way recovery and money works I'll be very surprised.

That's why I asked.

[NovaSilisko]

Would be interesting if it could somehow determine how much abuse the part has had, and deduct a certain amount of money for "refurbishment" after you recover it. Some parts would be too screwed up to salvage and have negative returns, in which case you could destroy them and sell them for scrap metal for a bit of compensation money.

[KerbMav]

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Felipe (HarvesteR):

... most complicated to add contracts, ... depends on which parts you have researched, and where/how each part is used. ... so you get offered to test parts in ways that make sense. Not only that, you also get to test parts which you haven’t researched yet, which means we had to add a system to support these ‘experimental’ parts. The main difference when testing an experimental part is that you’ll get a limited amount of them. If you destroy them before completing the test, you will fail.

Speaking of recovery, there’s been a lot of progress done there as well. The “Science Summary†dialog is being overhauled into a complete “Mission Summaryâ€Â, which will show not only the recovered experiment data from a mission, but also the parts you recovered (and how much funds you got back from them), as well as crews. For experimental ‘prototype’ parts, recovery also re-stocks them so you get to launch them again, in case the contract is still incomplete.

All this is for one type of contract only

The refund part is in parenthesis, so it is just an interjection in his recital of things to be done for just this one type of contract.

So I am pretty sure we will get a refund for every recovered part.

Would be interesting if it could somehow determine how much abuse the part has had, and deduct a certain amount of money for "refurbishment" after you recover it. Some parts would be too screwed up to salvage and have negative returns, in which case you could destroy them and sell them for scrap metal for a bit of compensation money.

I also read it as if only the experimental parts would be restocked and all other parts being sold for scrap

Yesterday I was not sure about this, but it would be strange and bad game design to have the player pay for every part first just because he wants to design a new ship, so I think normal parts will not be kept in stock, but will have to be paid for when pressing the launch button.

Reusing space planes will require some engineering ingenuity though, especially if the player is not using KAS for refueling - this is even more true for reloading cargo bays of planes. But if we really wanted to reuse our planes - and not just do-as-if by relaunching them from the VAB - this has been no different in the past.

[raziel420]

Rigging ropes could mean chutes that capsules actually hang from (flexable ropes instead of titanium bars)

[KerbMav]

After reading the thread and doing some googling... probably some of you understood "rigging a rope" under very different circumstances

I was talking about this http://youtu.be/fgsuCQk6ito if you have any suggestions, they are more than welcome. I'm currently doing some research of ncloth dynamics and such

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk_Maya

nCloth

Added in version 8.5, nCloth is the first implementation of Maya Nucleus, Autodesk's simulation framework. nCloth provides artist with detailed control of cloth and material simulations. Compared to its predecessor Maya Cloth, nCloth is a faster, more flexible and more robust simulation framework.

Are we hyping again?

[Whirligig Girl]

ROPES ARE ONLY FOR AN ANIMATION. seriously, danRosas almost never works in-game.

[Whirligig Girl]

Hidden in our secret laboratories.

He's around.

I'm guessing he's working on fixing the spaceplane parts to work with the rest of the art style, which was mentioned a while back.

[KerbMav]

ROPES ARE ONLY FOR AN ANIMATION. seriously, danRosas almost never works in-game.

But he should!! I want my Kerbals to really pick up rocks and stuff!!

[Khorso]

Hopefully now putting parachutes on booster stages will allow them to reach the ground intact.

Wouldn't that require a rewrite of how the game tracks parts? The way I understand it is that items on suborbital trajectories disappear after 2.5km- correct me if I am wrong.

Or could it just track them, run a check at that point if they have a chute active, and auto-reclaim them? /speculation

[HarvesteR]

There seems to be some confusion about what recovery means for Career and Test contracts, let me clarify:

Recovery exists all the time, even in Sandbox in fact. What it is able to recover depends on the game mode, of course.

For Sandbox, the only thing you can recover are crewmembers. There being no funding or science in sandbox, it wouldn't make sense to recover anything else.

In Career Games, you can recover experiments (as usual), parts, and crew.

Parts are always recovered, regardless of them being something you have researched already, or being an 'experimental' part, offered by a test contract.

For normal parts, recovering them means you get some of its value back, which also factors in any resources you burned. So recovering an empty SRB, for instance, will yield a lot less funds than recovering an unlit one. Given that the SRB's cost is about 75% fuel, that is a sizable difference.

For experimental parts, two things may happen. If you completed the contract that offered it, the part will no longer be classed as experimental, so you'll get the recovery funds for having returned it, but it won't be available anymore in the parts list until you properly research it in R&D (or you take up another contract that offers it). If you haven't yet completed the contract however, recovering the experimental part will add it back so you can launch it again for a second try. The cost of the part is independent of its status in R&D.

As for the value of the recovered parts, that is still a work in progress. Currently, there isn't anything deducing the recovery value of a part other than figuring out the value of the part and the remaining resources in it, but that will likely change before release. There should always be some loss of value in recovering parts, even if you don't use it.

For recovering Crew, well, this has been in the game in an understated way ever since persistence was implemented. The only difference is that now you get to see exactly who was in the vessel you recovered as part of the summary screen.

Hopefully that clears up how the whole thing works.

Of course, this is a first iteration for these systems, so don't expect everything to be final as if it were fully implemented yet. There will most likely be a lot of other things to add on later updates.... as with everything else.

Cheers

[Superfluous J]

Wouldn't that require a rewrite of how the game tracks parts? The way I understand it is that items on suborbital trajectories disappear after 2.5km- correct me if I am wrong.

Or could it just track them, run a check at that point if they have a chute active, and auto-reclaim them? /speculation

It seems a very simple thing to check for, yes. "Would the number and types of active parachutes on this craft cause it to land at less than x m/s?" Yes->Auto Recover or place on the ground/sea directly under where it'd have been deleted. No->Auto delete it like you do now.

In theory you can safely auto land a winged craft, but the code to check if a winged craft would be safe is much harder and IMO not worth it. I'm not a developer though so my opinions don't mean much I'd just like a reason to put chutes on lift stages. It'll make me feel like Elon Musk.

[regex]

There should always be some loss of value in recovering parts, even if you don't use it.

I can see you're hell bent on making the spaceplane crowd mad. I approve.