Will the SLS ever fly?

[Guest]

SLS: 450 million. FH: 115 million.

SLS: 90,000kg to LEO. FH: 53,000kg to LEO.

If I'd buy a rocket for my Aerospace company... I'd use FH.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Guest

[Kinglet]

NASAs new rocket seems a little... Rushed to be honest. There isn't a specific payload or anything at all that it is designed to do? What do you think?

I expect nothing from a agency that ADVERTIZES ITSELF WITH ANGRY BIRDS PARTNERHSIPS.

[AlamoVampire]

Note that the Senate Launch System is not actually *required* to fly an Orion mission; the Orion can easily be put into LEO by a Delta IV Heavy, and, in fact, a prototype one is going to be flown on just that either late this year or sometime next year in a first unmanned test flight.

.

Delta IV Heavy is NOT Man Rated. The problem is not that SLS is EXPENSIVE, but that people who have 0 interest in space exploration or manned space flight keep insisting that the budgets be dialed back for all things science. THIS IS A HUGE MISTAKE. Honestly the more we reduce our budget for manned and unmanned exploration of that which is beyond our OWN atmosphere the worse things will be for us as a species.

Tell me, do you see a problem there? I do. We are spending more on defense in a SINGLE YEAR than we have in HALF A CENTURY OF SPACE FLIGHT. If anything we need to cut back on military spending and dump that cash into the Sciences.

SLS: 450 million. FH: 115 million.

SLS: 90,000kg to LEO. FH: 53,000kg to LEO.

If I'd buy a rocket for my Aerospace company... I'd use FH.

There is a HUGE problem with your comparison. SLS is lifting 37,000kg MORE, so yea, it COSTS MORE. On average it is 10k to 14 THOUSAND dollars PER POUND to lift something to LEO.

I will sum myself up by letting Carl Sagan speak for me:

“There is perhaps no better a demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.â€Â

Carl Sagan in Time magazine, 9 January 1995, describing the Pale Blue Dot image of Earth (above), taken by the Voyager 1 spacecraft 6 billion kilometres away in 1990.

Edited June 24, 2014 by AlamoVampire

[R0cketC0der]

There is a HUGE problem with your comparison. SLS is lifting 37,000kg MORE, so yea, it COSTS MORE. On average it is 10k to 14 THOUSAND dollars PER POUND to lift something to LEO.

Sure, but SLS still costs more than two times as much as FH per kilogram to orbit.

[Kryten]

SLS is not intended to carry payloads to LEO, it's optimised for higher-energy orbits.

[Seret]

SLS is not intended to carry payloads to LEO, it's optimised for higher-energy orbits.

AIUI lobbing things into LEO is the backup plan for it if the fancy payloads don't materialise.

[Kryten]

AIUI lobbing things into LEO is the backup plan for it if the fancy payloads don't materialise.

That's nonsense. What would it be putting up that's already reasonably standard? 6 KH-11s? Two whole iridium constellations? It's vastly outsized for LEO demand.

[Woopert]

I expect nothing from a agency that ADVERTIZES ITSELF WITH ANGRY BIRDS PARTNERHSIPS.

They do that to get people interested in spaceflight again, the majority of people these days are incredibly stupid.

Anyways, SLS Block I can lift 70 mT to orbit, Falcon Heavy can lift 53 mT to orbit. That's for the expendable version of the Falcon Heavy. SLS Block II will lift 130 mT and possibly 150 mT with the Pyrios F-1B boosters. SLS is designed for deep space missions and missions that obviously require a lot of mass to be lifted into orbit. I'm not even sure if FH is man-rated, something SLS is designed for. NASA has much more experience in deep space exploration. The SLS will prove to be crucial for these missions. Don't get me wrong, I love SpaceX and what they do, but they're no where close yet. All these "Falcon X" and "Falcon XX" arguments are silly since both of those designs are just concepts. SLS is already under development and is slated for a December 2017 launch.

I don't know why everyone has to get all defensive over how "SpaceX is better than NASA" or vice versa. They're stupid arguments, we're all trying to do the same thing: enable further exploration of the human race, and to accomplish various spaceflight objectives. We all know by now about Dragon V2 and Falcon 9R, yes, SpaceX is focusing on LEO and ISS missions. NASA has already done such and are looking to private companies such as SpaceX, Sierra Nevada Corporation, and Boeing to take over the job. NASA wants to visit asteroids (in lunar orbit) and eventually Mars. SpaceX will definitely get there someday but that is NASA's responsibility for now.

SpaceX is on the fast track for heavy lifting, FH might even launch 2015 or 2016. They're not trying to compete, however. SpaceX is looking to lower the costs of lifting needs. NASA is focusing on deep space missions, currently SpaceX has no clue how to even accomplish such things.

It would be much easier to cooperate (which is what NASA and SpaceX actually do IRL, the whole commercial resupply program and such), but instead there's a bunch of SpaceX and NASA fanboys. Just respect both, okay? They're both doing great things for humanity. NASA also has a limited budget, SpaceX is private and runs off of their own funding. Again, please respect both agencies / companies and let's just hope for the best in humanity's future.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Woopert

[Seret]

It's vastly outsized for LEO demand.

Indeed, but delivery of crew and replacement modules to the ISS is one of the SLS Design Reference Missions:

“The International Space Station (ISS) Back-Up Crew Delivery mission (DRM ID: LEO_Util_1A_C11A1) is flown with the SLS and the Orion-MPCV, with SLS providing any necessary ballast and launch stack spacers,â€Â

“This DRM is a single launch of up to four crew members to and from the ISS and is a back-up to the planned commercial crew capability for transportation to the ISS. This mission is flown using the Block 1 SLS without an iCPS.â€Â

Basically they're keeping SLS on the sideline in case the Commercial Crew Programme doesn't come through. That looks pretty unlikely to be the case though.

[impwarhamer]

honestly if space x or another private company gains dominance over the entire space industry and ends up being the first people to Mars, then i will probably just kill myself right there and then.

[cantab]

That's nonsense. What would it be putting up that's already reasonably standard? 6 KH-11s? Two whole iridium constellations? It's vastly outsized for LEO demand.

I believe SpaceX are hoping on the "If you build it they will come" argument, and SLS could benefit from that too.And while the SLS will be heavier per kilo, there may be cases where the increased launch cost is less than the cost of "dieting down" a design to go on Falcon Heavy.

The SLS taking crew to the space station is more of a last resort, if NASA fall out with the Russians and the private sector fails to deliver. The SLS delivering station modules, on the other hand, is pretty sensible.

[AlamoVampire]

Indeed, but delivery of crew and replacement modules to the ISS is one of the SLS Design Reference Missions:

Basically they're keeping SLS on the sideline in case the Commercial Crew Programme doesn't come through. That looks pretty unlikely to be the case though.

Except NASA has vastly more non Earth SOI manned experience and while yes 1 SLS type may be ISS able, the main goal is Moon and beyond.

[Nibb31]

I believe SpaceX are hoping on the "If you build it they will come" argument, and SLS could benefit from that too.And while the SLS will be heavier per kilo, there may be cases where the increased launch cost is less than the cost of "dieting down" a design to go on Falcon Heavy.

That's not true for the aerospace industry. The "If you build it they will come" meme can be countered with the "Bridge to nowhere" meme. Building a bridge to space won't suddenly make people want to send stuff to space because there simply is nothing to do in space and going to space will still be expensive because you still have to pay for the bridge.

You build an infrastructure to meet a demand. There is no demand.

The SLS taking crew to the space station is more of a last resort, if NASA fall out with the Russians and the private sector fails to deliver. The SLS delivering station modules, on the other hand, is pretty sensible.

There are no new station modules.

[montyben101]

honestly if space x or another private company gains dominance over the entire space industry and ends up being the first people to Mars, then i will probably just kill myself right there and then.

Why what's wrong with them?

[impwarhamer]

Why what's wrong with them?

Venturing into the solar system should be about exploration and a great achievement of the human race as a species, not about profits and self interest

[R0cketC0der]

Venturing into the solar system should be about exploration and a great achievement of the human race as a species, not about profits and self interest

This is what seems to be your logic:

Funded by governments: always about exploration and great achievement of the human race as a species

Funded by private people/private companies: always about profit and self interest

[Vonar]

List of potential SLS Payloads:

Large upper stage

Solar Probe

Outer System sample return

multiple rovers to the surface of Venus or Mars

substantial shielding needed for operating long term in the harsh radiation environment of the Jupiter system.

mission to moons of Jupiter and Saturn, namely Europa and Enceladus

Lagrange point station, presumeably at the Earth-Moon L2

Launching large 16+ crew stations into LEO in a single launch like the BA-2100 inflatable module

asteroid visits, Asteroid Redirect Robotic Mission (ARRM)

robotic mission to Europa

Manned Mars missions

Launching NASA's two spare Hubble Space Telescopes

Advanced Technology Large-Aperture Space Telescope a 8 to 16.8-meter (320 to 660-inch) UV-optical-NIR space telescope

Space Tug

Lunar Base

Manned Venus or Mars Flyby

wet workshop station

dod, private sector payloads, secondary payloads

Based on this list I would say there are plenty of potential payloads - certainly more then what were proposed for the Saturn V's post Apollo application program.

[impwarhamer]

This is what seems to be your logic:

Funded by governments: always about exploration and great achievement of the human race as a species

Funded by private people/private companies: always about profit and self interest

Not exactly.

Quote from the crew of Apollo 11:

'We've been discussing the events that have taken place in the past, 2 or 3 days aboard our spacecraft, we've come to the conclusion this has been far more than 3 men on a voyage to the moon. More still, than the efforts of a government and industry team. More even than the efforts of one nation. We feel this stands as a symbol of the insatiable curiosity of all mankind to explore the unknown.'

The point is, you don't get that with a private company. While in both cases the ulterior motives of those in charge may not be true, a private company isn't 'a symbol of the insatiable curiosity of all mankind', its private.

[Red Iron Crown]

Private or public couldn't matter less to me. As long as the organization is spending the resources and making strides in space, I am in favor of that organization. Private companies getting involved is a sign that spaceflight is moving from the "extraordinary endeavor" category to the "business as usual" category.

I look forward to the day when manned spaceflight is as routine as flight in a private jet, and when having been in space is no more exotic than having scuba dived at the Great Barrier reef.

[impwarhamer]

I agree that it's good that private companies are finaly getting involved in space, and i love what spaceX is doing, but you have to have the "extraordinary endeavor" before you have the "business as usual" phase, and i don't think that should be something they should be doing.

[Nibb31]

List of potential SLS Payloads:

None of those potential payloads are funded or planned. If any of them were given a green light today, none of them could be ready in less than 5 to 10 years, which means that SLS is going to sit around for years waiting for a payload to be ready. In all likeliness, it won't, because the Administration will cancel it. Taxpayers don't want to pay infrastructure and employees to sit around for years waiting for a payload.

I agree that it's good that private companies are finaly getting involved in space, and i love what spaceX is doing, but you have to have the "extraordinary endeavor" before you have the "business as usual" phase, and i don't think that should be something they should be doing.

SpaceX is a private subcontractor working for the government. It's still the taxpayer footing the bill.

[Seret]

Venturing into the solar system should be about exploration and a great achievement of the human race as a species, not about profits and self interest

Ideally they aren't mutually exclusive. Profits and self-interest are extremely good motivators.

a private company isn't 'a symbol of the insatiable curiosity of all mankind'

Private industry drives lots of innovation. All the technology in the computer you're reading this on was developed by private companies. Most of the great engineers of history (eg: Ford, Brunel, Edison, Marconi) were working in the private sector.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Seret

[DaRocketCat]

Ideally they aren't mutually exclusive. Profits and self-interest are extremely good motivators.

Private industry drives lots of innovation. All the technology in the computer you're reading this on was developed by private companies. Most of the great engineers of history (eg: Ford, Brunel, Edison, Marconi) were working in the private sector.

Actually most of this stuff stems from US military research.

The first microprocessor was designed for use in the F14, and the internet as you all know started as a DARPA initiative.

[Kinglet]

Actually most of this stuff stems from US military research.

The first microprocessor was designed for use in the F14, and the internet as you all know started as a DARPA initiative.

And the first object in space was a V-2 missile designed to kill people.

Humans are evil.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Kinglet

[razark]

And the first object in space was a V-1 missile...

V-2.

The V-1 was a cruise missile, the V-2 was a ballistic rocket.