About suggestions...

[Javster]

I'm starting to think that the suggestion sub-forum is becoming pointless, because I can't actually remember an instance where a KSP dev added a feature from here.

Does anyone from Squad (bar community staff) actually read through the forums for ideas? If not, why call it suggestions, when you could call it "Things we wish were in the game"?

It feels like Squad don't care about the community which made the game so successful. They're forgetting their roots.

[KaBob]

I think it's just that there's so many things to add that they don't have the time to worry about the suggestions right now. Hopefully once they finish all of the big feature additions like currency they can focus more on the smaller suggestions.

[Javster]

I think it's just that there's so many things to add that they don't have the time to worry about the suggestions right now. Hopefully once they finish all of the big feature additions like currency they can focus more on the smaller suggestions.

I hope that's the case... I also hope that they make updates a bit smaller and a lot more regular. The Minecraft model of snapshots every week is great, as only people interested actually get them. It gives the team an incentive to work on small chunks of features which can easily be fleshed out later. If something isn't really ready, release something else instead. It would help with the bug finding and fixing.

[regex]

I'm starting to think that the suggestion sub-forum is becoming pointless, because I can't actually remember an instance where a KSP dev added a feature from here.

Does anyone from Squad (bar community staff) actually read through the forums for ideas? If not, why call it suggestions, when you could call it "Things we wish were in the game"?

It feels like Squad don't care about the community which made the game so successful. They're forgetting their roots.

I'm sure some SQUAD employee reads this sub-forum. At least, they've claimed to in the past. Sadly, 99% (roughly) of the suggestions in this sub-forum are mostly useless cruft. They may provide a decent basis on which to gauge the current user interest in certain features or provide a kernel of an idea, but they are otherwise useless as concrete gameplay elements.

E; SQUAD has also made a point of saying that Reddit is far more useful when determining the current feelings about features in the game. The forums here are a sideshow, really.

[Javster]

Reddit?? But most of the stuff there is rubbish afaik...

[vexx32]

Nobody knows. At any rate, it seems to me as though 0.24 and perhaps the next couple of updates are still focusing on more core gameplay aspects, at least from what has been said so far. Super-cool content and stuff is all well and good, but they have to lay the framework first, otherwise it simply won't work.

As to "I hope releases are more frequent with smaller updates"... well. Here's the thing. They used to be. Back in the days before 0.14 and 0.15. Around 0.13, they realised that had to change. Why? Because it became apparent that Squad alone could not test the releases thoroughly enough to keep people happy. You can say all you like that people would only have the option of more shiny, less stable builds, but it has been the case that people simply did not care if the release said "WARNING: Testing time was short, so there may be some awful bugs here." They figured that they were entitled to properly-tested, stable, working builds -- without respect, of course, to the time it would take to accomplish that. I was there way back then... and it was horrible. People were being quite horrible. Naturally, there were people defending Squad, but there were a lot of people throwing rage around like flower petals at a wedding. It wasn't nearly as pretty. Why did this happen? Simple. An unstable release was pushed forward that had one -- just one -- particularly nasty game-breaking bug.

Trust me when I say... you do not want to see those days come back. The forum back then was a very poisonous place, and I shudder to think of what the forum staff had to go through back then; I was not a moderator until much later.

Squad devs do read the forums for ideas, but it seems to be mostly the case that they only really have time to do so in the days following a release, as after that they simply go back to work on the next update. They seem to have fairly concrete plans for what they want to do for now, though, which is likely because they are trying to get the game to what they have been calling "scope complete". Basically, to get all the basic core features that need to be in the game, into the game. After that will likely come a fair while of adding new content here and there, and I think at that point they will likely take to the forums a fair bit more, whenever they're lacking in inspiration.

Patience.

[MKI]

I feel descussions on the suggestions forums aren't for results, rather they are for ideas, discussions and tinkering. As said by Vexx above, the Dev's know what they are going to do with the game for now. Harv has a list of things to get done.

Redditt gets more attention simply because its more of an advertisement machine than the official forums. People will look on reditt and see how something there has been implimented, and in turn the extra attention is more advertisement. Where as on here threads die and disapear. Which is again why forums are more for dedicated discussions, rather than any vast movement.

So yes i do not believe the Dev's will take every suggestion to heart and try to get it into the game the next update. (Or ever) I do believe they skim the forums just to get an idea of what should be done, or not be done.

Personally I know the Dev's do look to the forums for some things, take for instance the naming of the next update, "First Contract" came up first on the forums. So do not take the forums for granted, just remember you might not be able to change the Dev's minds, but you may be able to change players minds, which in turn can change the game.

[xcorps]

I'd be surprised if they did anything but put some of the more reasonable suggestions on a whiteboard. Surely they have a plan, and their intention is to follow that plan until the game is in late beta. Maybe then they'll start to look at implementation of user ideas.

Clearly they want user input, but how are you going to build a game by committee?

[Javster]

I understand. The key is patients, like in a hospital. Or is that patience?

Maybe we should have anti-suggestions, or things we don't want in the game EVER. Although that could get very silly quite quickly...

We don't want: guns, aliens, but we also don't want bugs, and we don't want to wait for updates, we want an update per day!!!!

[r4pt0r]

i hope mining never makes it into stock.

[Red Iron Crown]

E; SQUAD has also made a point of saying that Reddit is far more useful when determining the current feelings about features in the game. The forums here are a sideshow, really.

As a forum-but-not-reddit user, that's disappointing. Do you know details of why Reddit provides more useful feedback?

[regex]

As a forum-but-not-reddit user, that's disappointing. Do you know details of why Reddit provides more useful feedback?

I can't remember where I heard it, a KSPTV stream, I think, but Rowsdower mentioned that Reddit simply had more people and was more valuable because of that.

[Kasuha]

Not many suggestions surface on Reddit and if they do, they usually fall into oblivion rather fast. Forums are definitely better place to put an articulated and well thought-through suggestion.

While it probably was pure coincidence, it happened to me once that I posted a suggestion and in release a few days later it was implemented.

And I am sure devs do read suggestions on forums since we get occasional posts from them here.

On the other hand it is clear that suggestions forum is for players to vent off some of their creative steam rather than for developers as a reliable source of ideas.

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

As a forum-but-not-reddit user, that's disappointing. Do you know details of why Reddit provides more useful feedback?

The forum is a vocal minority, whereas Reddit's system of trending is based on silent upvoters supporting the links they like the best. Where a simple feature requested by very few on the forums could be very noticable, on Reddit it would almost immediately be buried under what most people are going to get the most interest for.

That makes the forum and reddit very different tools, and Reddit happens to be the one that is better a conveying a global feeling of what the community likes best, using a few submitters that will answer to the AMAs and announcements to upvote the advice they agrre with, unlike the usual "I like this" and the myriad of "me too !" that happens on the forums, and micght be painful to read.

E : Semi ninja'd by Kasuha

[Winter Man]

I can't actually remember an instance where a KSP dev added a feature from here.

I can, back on the old forum around 2011ish when there were only a few hundred people signed up.

[r4pt0r]

to be fair, most suggestions are rubbish

[Capt Snuggler]

i hope mining never makes it into stock.

I think both Mining and a second solar system are perfect for optional, post v1.0 DLC

many people would find it cool but ultimately its beyond the scope of the base game.

[Sky_walker]

whereas Reddit's system of trending is based on silent upvoters supporting the links they like the best.

Identical system functions on a forum.

Top-right, choose Rate This Thread.

[cpast]

Identical system functions on a forum.

Top-right, choose Rate This Thread.

Very few people use that. There are actually no forums I'm aware of where that sort of thing is actually in common use.

[Rowsdower]

I can't remember where I heard it, a KSPTV stream, I think, but Rowsdower mentioned that Reddit simply had more people and was more valuable because of that.

Wait, what? Totally don't recall saying that. If I had, definitely not the intention. Reddit and the forum are actually pretty even keel in terms of active membership, exposure and the type of ideas that come forth. The one big difference between Reddit and here is that the format allows for greater visibility on certain things, but as for the type of feedback that we look at, it's not exactly one over the other. More like an overall temperature being taken. I must say that in terms of specific, detailed requests and the volume at which they're being heard, the forum takes the cake, but we do have to have to take all parts of the community into account. Not just here or Reddit.

[LethalDose]

It feels like Squad don't care about the community which made the game so successful. They're forgetting their roots.

I think this is due to the fact they do a crap job communicating with the community. I think there have been a number of suggestions from the community that have made it into the game. I saw "use Kerbal days/years" brought up several times, and tons of mod functionality has made it into the game. But it's usually an after thought, an "Oh yeah, we added that" as a minor note.

I think this week's

is at least tangentially relevant. While KSP has a good game presentation, SQUAD is taking the community for granted and doing a crap job of communicating what is still coming, which is going to lead has led to community members having a lower opinion of the game. And just like the video discusses, the community buzz is critical for smaller games.

This isn't anything new. These issues have been apparent since the last KerbalKon. They're not getting any better, until they do, we're going to keep seeing threads like this.

Actually the fact this hasn't been locked yet is pretty shocking.

[MR4Y]

I think this is due to the fact they do a crap job communicating with the community. I think there have been a number of suggestions from the community that have made it into the game. I saw "use Kerbal days/years" brought up several times, and tons of mod functionality has made it into the game. But it's usually an after thought, an "Oh yeah, we added that" as a minor note.

I think this week's

is at least tangentially relevant. While KSP has a good game presentation, SQUAD is taking the community for granted and doing a crap job of communicating what is still coming, which is going to lead has led to community members having a lower opinion of the game. And just like the video discusses, the community buzz is critical for smaller games.

This isn't anything new. These issues have been apparent since the last KerbalKon. They're not getting any better, until they do, we're going to keep seeing threads like this.

Actually the fact this hasn't been locked yet is pretty shocking.

^This.

And, usually threads don't get locked until someone start poking at the right wounds SQUAD has, to the point that the forums even have rules prohibiting those things (which no other forums have) to justify performing cautionary actions on those things. It's better to have your iron fist disguised and give the impression of liberty of speech.

[AmpsterMan]

Okay, I am going to come in before this gets derailed. Squad DOES listen to the forum. In fact, how many games can say they have had modders get hired? Yet here we have had 4 that I can think of off of the top of my head

It is true that suggestions are difficult to get by. There are a ton of different suggestions, and following Sturgeon's Law most of it is either bad or doesn't fit well with Harvester's view (Yes, it is HIS game btw)

On the issue of what not to suggest: The fact that there is a thread talking specifically about what NOT to suggest, tells you that we are trying to eliminate repetitive stuff so that we can get to the novel parts. We have THREE moderators dedicated to the Development and Support section. Their entire job is to make sure the Suggestions are heard and that Support questions are answered. Because of the WNTS, you know that any thread that stays alive is an idea worth sharing; you know it is a unique idea that has not been considered. It helps us as mods kind of tell Harv and the gang where to go and allows for less time wasted rehashing tired subjects that there is no point in discussing.

Finally, the best way to make a suggestion is to prove that it works. Make a mod. If you can't, support a mod. If you can't, suggest a mod. If you can't, learn coding and make a mod. Sorry, but these are the facts of life; this is the way the cookie crumbles.

I am fed up with people saying we don't listen when for the past 8 months I have logged on everyday and the discussion amongst us mods always revolves around the Development and Support forum one way or another. Squad is made up of like 3 coders, and yet they have a guy who get's paid to talk to the community. Let me repeat Squad cares about the community enough that they put forth money to make sure you are well informed. If that is not enough, I have no idea what is.

Thanks for listening to my tirade. You can go about your business.

Cause no trouble, glory to Kerbin.

Edited July 6, 2014 by AmpsterMan

[MR4Y]

Okay, I am going to come in before this gets derailed. Squad DOES listen to the forum. In fact, how many games can say they have had modders get hired? Yet here we have had 4 that I can think of off of the top of my head

Mods are generally hired to work for the company. Not for a single game. Valve does this all the time.

It is true that suggestions are difficult to get by. There are a ton of different suggestions, and following Sturgeon's Law most of it is either bad or doesn't fit well with Harvester's view (Yes, it is HIS game btw)

On the issue of what not to suggest: The fact that there is a thread talking specifically about what NOT to suggest, tells you that we are trying to eliminate repetitive stuff so that we can get to the novel parts. We have THREE moderators dedicated to the Development and Support section. Their entire job is to make sure the Suggestions are heard and that Support questions are answered. Because of the WNTS, you know that any thread that stays alive is an idea worth sharing; you know it is a unique idea that has not been considered. It helps us as mods kind of tell Harv and the gang where to go and allows for less time wasted rehashing tired subjects that there is no point in discussing.

This has been discussed to death before. The problem is not the WNTS list. The problem is that there's no standards on suggesting something. Some people might suggest the same thing but fro ma different angle and in a different way and there's a chance that it might be ideal. So what you do? Do you just shove the WTNS list, like people used to do very often in the past or you listen to what people have to say?

Finally, the best way to make a suggestion is to prove that it works. Make a mod. If you can't, support a mod. If you can't, suggest a mod. If you can't, learn coding and make a mod. Sorry, but these are the facts of life; this is the way the cookie crumbles.

If you're not able to work out a feature based off description alone, then why should I trust you as a developer and do your work for you? What guarantees I have that you're not just gonna copy and paste my code into the game and flowery state that the feature was yours? I make the hard work for free and you get the credit for doing nothing and being paid for it?

I am fed up with people saying we don't listen when for the past 8 months I have logged on everyday and the discussion amongst us mods always revolves around the Development and Support forum one way or another. Squad is made up of like 3 coders, and yet they have a guy who get's paid to talk to the community. Let me repeat Squad cares about the community enough that they put forth money to make sure you are well informed if that is not enough, I have no idea what is.

If that were enough, there would be no complaints or very few of them. If the job was well done, the person didn't do anything more than what he was paid to do in the first place.

[LethalDose]

<snip>

I am fed up with people saying we don't listen when for the past 8 months I have logged on everyday and the discussion amongst us mods always revolves around the Development and Support forum one way or another. Squad is made up of like 3 coders, and yet they have a guy who get's paid to talk to the community. Let me repeat Squad cares about the community enough that they put forth money to make sure you are well informed. If that is not enough, I have no idea what is.

Thanks for listening to my tirade. You can go about your business.

Cause no trouble, glory to Kerbin.

At the risk of poking at an angry mod, 2 points:

First: no one said you were doing your job poorly. I'm sure you're dilligent and kick up the line what needs to be kicked up the line.

Second: IMO, the community is most certainly not "well informed". We want to be, but the devs are all but silent. The dev notes are typically incredibly vague. For this upcoming release, we know it's going to have contracts and budgets, that's really about it. We have only the barest notion about how the contracts system will work (procedurally generated contracts that will be roughly tuned to the players achievements in a save). We have one mod comment (not a dev) that says the new release "should be fine" with old saves. We might get the OMS & Vernier engines. and... Oh, they're releasing an apparently buggy version of the 64-bit executable, seemingly because someone else beat them to it.

that's all we really know about 0.24 after more than 3 months.

And here's what we know about 0.25:

<chirping crickets>

<sarcasm> Actually, that's probably over-stating things, I think read in the dev notes the cricket FX should be coming "Soon^tm" </sarcasm>

But seriously, I cannot see how this can possibly qualify as "well informed".

The devs seem to dislike that there's speculation about the game and it's mechanics, but in reality they have a huge amount of power to stop it by simply providing facts about current plans, even though they are subject to change. It's their choice not to. This is relevant because if we had some idea about what was coming down the pipe, then it's possible that the community could see where their recommendations are being heard.

But we don't get that feed-back from the devs, so we have no idea if we're being heard or not. I'm sorry our reaction (We don't feel like suggestions thread matters) frustrates you, AmpsterMan, but I think it's fair to point out that the attitudes expressed here haven't developed in a vacuum.

Oh, and this:

Mods are generally hired to work for the company. Not for a single game. Valve does this all the time.

Bethesda has hired a few modders, and I'm pretty sure Mojang has hired guys that work(ed) on the MCP.

Edited July 6, 2014 by LethalDose
comment RE: hiring modders