Here's Your First Look at Kerbal Space Program: First Contract

[Superfluous J]

I think the people who don't understand what "all the fuss" is over 50% throttle aren't understanding the key concept that we're not "all the fuss"ing about it. We're just confused.

I suppose that the idea that someone brand new to the game could be confused by hitting space and having nothing happen (It's been a year but I vaguely recall being in that boat on my first launch), but I don't see in that case 50% is better than 100%.

I don't think it's terrible. I've throttled up every launch up to now and I will continue to. Unless it's settable in the configs or a mod comes out, in which case this will make my life 0.0001% easier. So score on that one.

[Jean Deaux]

64 bit KSP?! Welcome! Welcome!

[Kerbart]

as with cpast, burden of proof is on YOU to prove this wrong. it is a safer bet, that the AUTOMATIC THROTTLE TO 50% is a condition applied to ALL rockets as you switch to them. Seeing as he did NOT STATE IMPLICITLY: LAUNCH PAD ONLY, burden of proof is on YOU to prove your case that either YOU or cpast are right.

Following similar logic: they also reversed the controls! I mean, they did not IMPLICITLY say they didn't reverse the controls. So the burden of proof is on YOU to prove your case that they didn't.

By the way, Felippe clearly says "defaults to 50% AT LAUNCH" around 2:36 in the video...

[kujuman]

i did not see it as clearly implied as at the pad only. I saw it clearly implied: go to rocket, its automatically at 50% throttle. which is a bad thing. I will require of you cpast proof of this only at the launch pad. until such proof is given, it MUST be assumed that this is a condition that applies to ALL rockets regardless of current location of pre-launch, in flight, docked, landed, splashed or crashed. Burden of proof is on you.

as with cpast, burden of proof is on YOU to prove this wrong. it is a safer bet, that the AUTOMATIC THROTTLE TO 50% is a condition applied to ALL rockets as you switch to them. Seeing as he did NOT STATE IMPLICITLY: LAUNCH PAD ONLY, burden of proof is on YOU to prove your case that either YOU or cpast are right.

this has NOTHING to do with being too lazy to do that. this has EVERYTHING with this being an unwanted feature by veterans of this game, as it CLEARLY has the implication of a care bear state being slowly forced upon us. I am sadly in agreement with obsessedwithksp in that, this sudden implementation of such a system bodes ill. it is clearly starting a trend of forced automation on all of us.

While YES, I am a STRONG advocate of automation, I am a STRONG advocate of CHOICE. THIS takes that CHOICE away. NOW, given all this, should we be given the OPTION to turn this feature off, then, that is fine, as CHOICE returns to US the users.

I can play this game. Alright, well I think we can default to the standard as being a preponderance of evidence, since this isn't a criminal trial or anything, purely a civil matter. I reject your claim that I and my co-defendants bear the burden of proof, since this is a civil matter the preponderance can come from either side.

Exhibit A: The video in question, time 2:30-2:33.

Begin Transcript

Maxmaps: "The game now defaults to fifty percent thrust on launch."

End of Transcript

I hereby rest my defense and further petition the judge to dismiss this case with prejudice.

Edited July 13, 2014 by kujuman

[allmhuran]

The 50% throttle thing is definitely a curiosity. Throttling up is actually one of the things that is covered in the tutorials, n'est pas? Weird.

Anyway, I'm a bit more concerned over how the whole contracts mechanic will play out. I'm not the first to say this, and I'm sure it will be said many more times over the coming months, but having a progression path determined by the game rather than rewarding the player for their chosen accomplishments seems odd. Sure, it's an "easy" or "obvious" solution, but I don't think it represents the best game design. Unless this too (like science points) is "just another feature to help newbies learn the game". But then that would leave me wondering when we start getting features that aren't just for that.

[kujuman]

The 50% throttle thing is definitely a curiosity. Throttling up is actually one of the things that is covered in the tutorials, n'est pas? Weird.

Anyway, I'm a bit more concerned over how the whole contracts mechanic will play out. I'm not the first to say this, and I'm sure it will be said many more times over the coming months, but having a progression path determined by the game rather than rewarding the player for their chosen accomplishments seems odd. Sure, it's an "easy" or "obvious" solution, but I don't think it represents the best game design. Unless this too (like science points) is "just another feature to help newbies learn the game". But then that would leave me wondering when we start getting features that aren't just for that.

Once the player gets past the scripted early missions, the hope is that they can do their "chosen accomplishments" by picking the procedurally generated contracts that are most appealing to them. We may not see things like station resupply missions or building a kethane refinery on Eve, but the understanding we have is that those sorts of missions can be modded in with some relative ease. And anything like setting up a RemoteTech network or sending a mapping satellite might not get its own contract, but it could be a "capital improvement" that your space program eats to better be able to pull off other contracts. These are my hopes anyway, we'll see when the update drops.

[regex]

I think the people who don't understand what "all the fuss" is over 50% throttle aren't understanding the key concept that we're not "all the fuss"ing about it. We're just confused.

YOU LEAVE JACK BURTON ALONE!

I don't see in that case 50% is better than 100%

I would never argue that, and, I have to say, I think it's a really dumb design decision. OTOH, it's better than starting a launch at 0% so I'm going to count my blessings

...

In this case, at least.

[cpast]

i did not see it as clearly implied as at the pad only. I saw it clearly implied: go to rocket, its automatically at 50% throttle. which is a bad thing. I will require of you cpast proof of this only at the launch pad. until such proof is given, it MUST be assumed that this is a condition that applies to ALL rockets regardless of current location of pre-launch, in flight, docked, landed, splashed or crashed. Burden of proof is on you.

Er, no. That's not how burden of proof works. Or if it is: I first require evidence that you aren't a Communist spy trying to sabotage freedom with the answer to that question. Burden of proof is on you; I require it, because I'm somehow an arbiter of this.

More directly: No. Your "safer bet" is that they implemented something absolutely idiotic; the safer bet is that they did not. Prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it is 50% throttle always. Your claim is inherently less likely, so requires more proof.

EDIT: Unless...is this supposed to be some sort of joke about people reading things they say too literally?

Edited July 13, 2014 by cpast

[kujuman]

Insufficient evidence. Proof of this behavior NOT affecting vessels in flight <read: pad="" launch="" the="" on="" NOT="" anything=""> ALSO required. Petition DENIED

You can't file a lawsuit and then adjudicate it. Unless you're Q. And you're not Q. Even if you were Q, Q lost his case.

Besides, preponderance of evidence

2 things: its spelled: Felipe <sorry me="" bothered="" P="" extra="" that=""> Second: See my statement above your quote. As to YOUR implication of control reversal: It was NEVER implied by Felipe that they were reversed, it IS implied that the throttle to 50% IS a thing.

It's Maxmaps narrating...</sorry></read:>

[Kerano]

Wow, watched the video yesterday and only gave a moment's thought to the 50% throttle: "huh, that would have been nice the first time I played". I come back a day later to 10+ pages of debate almost exclusively about that tiny topic when there were 4+ minutes worth of more important features announced.

I think we're all just getting a little impatient to play 0.24 and not realizing we're fighting over a toothpick.

[kujuman]

And it was like that BEFORE too, in .16 I think.

This gave me an excuse to break out .15.2 and see what was in it. Throttle defaulted to 50% on launch then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvwFnZTI3ME&feature=youtu.be

Note: this video...is not quiet.

[FleetAdmiralJ]

its not a tiny toothpick. we do not know the full extent of what that "small" feature truly means.

Huh? You go to the pad, the throttle is at 50%. That's it. I'm not sure how that could possibly be misunderstood. I'm almost afraid to look at the last 5 to 10 pages of this thread to see how it could have been.

[FleetAdmiralJ]

The 50% throttle thing is definitely a curiosity. Throttling up is actually one of the things that is covered in the tutorials, n'est pas? Weird.

I don't know what their logic behind it was, but I can guess:

Starting the throttle at 50% means you have a shorter distance to go anywhere on the throttle.

Say you want 1/4 throttle. You have to move the throttle 1/4 of the way up if it starts at 0, and 1/4 of the way down if it starts at 1/2. No difference there.

But what if you want 3/4 throttle. Before you'd have to move it up 3/4 of the way. now it's only 1/4. In fact the entire throttle can now be reached by only moving 1/2 of the throttle distance. It's not a huge change but I think it'll be kind of nice.

Edit: added

I'll try to answer that:

No procedural contracts.

I thought it was clear from the video, but I asked Yarg during one of EJ's streams. Procedural contracts are in the game. You just have to reach a certain point of development in your career before they kick in.

Edited July 13, 2014 by FleetAdmiralJ

[FleetAdmiralJ]

Simple: He does not state during the video at ANY time the following: This behavior is limited to when you launch the ship, and does not affect any ship that is in any state other than: at the pad.

given that THAT statement was NOT made, it is left open to extreme speculation.

I think it's pretty obvious that the scope of the statement that it starts at 50% is at the launch pad only. Indeed, how else would it make sense? Having the throttle set to 50% if you just switched a ship would be asinine. They also didn't say thing about a lot of stuff. Leaving things unclear and open to speculation is one thing. But at some point common sense has to take over and say "duh."

What is worse is this: is this a sign of further FORCED automation yet to come? Where will it end? Will we be forced to sit back and WATCH as our missions are done FOR US? No, we need to know NOW what this EXPLICITLY MEANS, and where ALL instances of this behavior are set to occur and if they can be rendered into an OFF mode.

\\

Sorry, but this just seems like hysterics. How is starting at 50% any more automation than starting at 0%? You still have to adjust it to wherever you want. Except starting at 50% has two advantages: First, people who don't know what their doing won't have a problem of not knowing to set the throttle. Second, it's a shorter trip to full throttle than starting at 0. In fact, I'm almost apt to say this is just flat out trolling. There is no way you actually think pre-setting throttle to 50% is akin to KSP being on the cusp of MechJebbing the entire game.

This is NOT a nice thing, as it can be viewed as FORCED automation. I am all for automation, but, I am also for CHOICE. FORCING my vessel into a 50% throttle up state, rejects MY choice of throttle position and timing.

How? You can still set your throttle to whatever you want. Does where it start really impact your ability to set your own throttle that much?

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Simple: He does not state during the video at ANY time the following: This behavior is limited to when you launch the ship, and does not affect any ship that is in any state other than: at the pad.

given that THAT statement was NOT made, it is left open to extreme speculation. What is worse is this: is this a sign of further FORCED automation yet to come? Where will it end? Will we be forced to sit back and WATCH as our missions are done FOR US? No, we need to know NOW what this EXPLICITLY MEANS, and where ALL instances of this behavior are set to occur and if they can be rendered into an OFF mode.

This is NOT a nice thing, as it can be viewed as FORCED automation. I am all for automation, but, I am also for CHOICE. FORCING my vessel into a 50% throttle up state, rejects MY choice of throttle position and timing.

How are we to know that the ships won't be automatically built for us? I mean, he didn't say they wouldn't be. Also, how do you know it won't just be when on the pad? He doesn't explicitly say that it will not just be on the pad.

[The Jedi Master]

This is not hysterics, but solid cold logical progression. How do we KNOW for 100% that this is where this ends? Also they tried this bs before. just look a few posts up. it was in .15 where we had FORCED 50% throttle. It did not work then, it certainly cannot work now. Also, here is how this looks to me, using a F2P game called MWO. They stated before it came out, that the game was going to be be decided by PILOT SKILL, not ones wallet. This quickly started to end when Hero Mechs were added, then other items that you paid REAL MONEY for that altered the combat space around you providing monetary advantage over skill advantage.

This translates to KSP like this: First they force us to have 50% throttle at launch. Then they force us to let the GAME do our missions. Where does this stop? Because by gum, THIS is where it starts.

LOVE MechJeb and its automation, but, I still have freedom of CHOICE. I still can CHOOSE to fly by hand or let the autopilot work for me.

Loss of Freedom of CHOICE. Give me the option to turn this off and I am happy. Force it on me, and I am not.

this is what I personally am up in arms about. This one stupid tiny feature could herald in, forced builds, forced flights, loss of choice, loss of freedom.

Either you are joking, or you have fallen prey to the Slippery Slope fallacy.

Guys, this might be an elaborate joke.

Edited July 13, 2014 by The Jedi Master

[FleetAdmiralJ]

no, this is not "pretty obvious." This is anything BUT. Given our nature on this forum to speculate, his actual lack of substantial proof of this ONLY being on the launchpad opened the door into this speculation. Which again, I have sought an end to, by asking him directly.

Speculation is one thing. Suggesting something that makes absolutely no sense, with no reason to suggest it, is something else. There are a lot of things to speculate about with this release. This doesn't seem to be something that there is very much question about how it works.

This is not hysterics, but solid cold logical progression. How do we KNOW for 100% that this is where this ends? Also they tried this bs before. just look a few posts up. it was in .15 where we had FORCED 50% throttle. It did not work then, it certainly cannot work now.

As I never played .15, I don't know how that worked, nor do I know why they changed it. However, to say that starting at 50% is forcing a 50% throttle is quite a stretch. It's not forcing a 50% throttle any more than the current game "forces" a 0% throttle.

Also, here is how this looks to me, using a F2P game called MWO.

I'll just stop there for that paragraph for two reasons: 1) KSP is not free to play. 2) Free to play games often try to lure you to pay, whether that's making it difficult to impossible to succeed without paying, or making playing the game painful or slow unless you pay. That's pretty much the nature of F2P games. That is not necessarily the nature of a game one purchases. (I suppose it COULD be like that, but there is no indication that KSP is going in that direction.)

This translates to KSP like this: First they force us to have 50% throttle at launch. Then they force us to let the GAME do our missions. Where does this stop? Because by gum, THIS is where it starts.

Again, they're not "forcing" anything, anymore than if they decided to turn SAS on by default would be "forcing" you to use it or any number of other things they could do. I just don't see the logical connection between having a default throttle on the pad at 50% and them suddenly automating the game for you. It's like seeing that your local store changed the design of the label on their milk carton and now you're suddenly afraid that they're going to reorganize the store and you won't be able to find anything anymore.

Either you are joking, or you have fallen prey to the Slippery Slope fallacy.

Guys, this might be an elaborate joke.

The thought had crossed my mind

[sal_vager]

AlamoVampire, you have forgotten or are too young to remember that this was how KSP used to be, the throttle was always at 50% pre-launch till about 0.18.0

Remember all the support and gameplay threads asking why rockets wouldn't work on the pad? Remember the "Shift to throttle up" replies? I do, it was even in many FAQ's as it was asked so often.

You are deliberately trying to generate confusion and hysteria over a minor point, assuming the throttle will always be set to 50% is absurd.

We more established players always throttle up before pressing Space anyway, this revert to an earlier throttle behaviour means we have half as long to wait before launching, and that new players will at least see their engines firing when they stage for the first time.

You'll end this foolishness now please

[Seshins]

snip

Thank you. That hysteria over nothing was becoming frustrating to read.

[tygoo7]

Thanks sal_vager. I'm actually a bit happy that 50% throttle is coming back. On the other hand, I'm really excited to play this update! I think this is going to make career mode a whole lot more interesting. Great job Squad!

[Rainbowtrout]

Seems interesting. Now let's see 0.25!

[CaptRobau]

We more established players always throttle up before pressing Space anyway, this revert to an earlier throttle behaviour means we have half as long to wait before launching, and that new players will at least see their engines firing when they stage for the first time.

Ideally KSP would get a stock Floor It button, Z by default. It's just so handy.

[Rainbowtrout]

Ideally KSP would get a stock Floor It button, Z by default. It's just so handy.

If I'm not mistaken, couldn't we use action groups as a "floor it" button, but only if the engine is throttled up beforehand. Or, is there another way?

[allmhuran]

Buy a joystick with a throttle. Problem solved

[JimmyAgent007]

Wow, I'm glad thats over. Anyone else notice the OTHER things that were mentioned in the video? I've KSP starved myself for months (except for a quick mun mission to test something) to be ready for this.