[1.4] StageRecovery - Recover Funds+ from Dropped Stages - v1.8.0 (March 11, 2018)

[BudgetHedgehog]

Wait.. if basically all the biomes reduce recovery cost, why reduce them at all? To paraphrase an excellent movie villain - "if all biomes are equal, no one is". You'd basically be introducing a reduced amount on recovery for all parts at all times. Not to mention that to get to say, the grasslands, the abstracted recovery team may have to cross mountains/water/desert etc which should count towards this reduction. So the entry in the changelog would be 'reduced recovery rate because I realised it would be harder to get to equivalent places in real life and recover/refurbish parts from these places'.

I mean, IRL, this would likely cost more than just making a new stage from scratch - the only things on a spacecraft I know of that were jettisoned, recovered and re-used successfully were the Shuttle SRBs. Roughly $23M was spent on maintenance between flights and, depending on the source, $12 million to $70 million for fuel. Also of note, the SRBs weren't just polished and filled with propellant again, they were dismantled and some components were used to make new ones which means that they were pretty much breaking even on cost of recovery vs newly built. The point I'm trying to make isn't that StageRecovery isn't realistic, but that if you take into account recovery logistics and refurbishment costs (continuing the real life theme of biomes affecting recovery cost), you'll end up reducing the refunds to pretty much to 0.

I mean, if you're cool with that, fair enough, but I just don't see it making sense, bearing in mind it's possible in KSP to circumnavigate Kerbin 3 times in a plane without refuelling, and that the different biomes are just different coloured grass and that deserts/ice don't hinder vessel performance or stats at all and kerbals don't breathe or get tired which means mountains aren't the challenge they are IRL etc etc..

It just depends what level of abstraction you're willing to take, in the end.

Also, I may not have explained this too well because I may or may not be slightly inebriated.

Edited October 28, 2015 by ObsessedWithKSP

[magico13]

I don't want to give penalties to every biome, but even if I did they would be different amounts for each biome and it would be customizable for each one.

It's easy to fly over some mountains, but finding a vessel stuck in the mountains, then landing near it, and then trying to get it into a plane/land vehicle, is much harder, more costly, and more time consuming than the same thing in flat grasslands.

And no matter what the default settings are, you can always modify them

[DiamondExcavater]

I was going to edit but there are responses, so basically I turned mod toolbar off and it works

whats the ignore list and whats with potato?

Where is the list which tell you every part ever recovered?

[magico13]

If a vessel is made entirely out of parts in the ignore list, it won't be recovered and you won't see any messages regarding it. Only partial part names are required.

By default launch clamps and asteroids (internally known as "potatoroid") are ignored, hence " potato" being in the list.

There is no list that tells you every part recovered. You'll receive messages when things are recovered and what parts were on it. Also, if you press the StageRecovery button while in flight it opens a window that contains more detail about all vessels recovered since you switched to the flight scene.

[DiamondExcavater]

okay, so the video from scott shows that window and that window only appears in flight, alright awesome.

btw i forgot you need to quick save or reload a ship for the experience to load, there isn't a way to gain it without reloading? like a constant checker?

[paul23]

Tundra is actually the most easy "biome" in real life to recover from. It's not for nothing all soyuz landings try to land in the russian tundra. It's (almost) flat, actually dry/low chance on bad weather & doesn't add complications that water gives (you can actually walk up to the capsule). Though I don't think it's a particularly good idea to add "landing biome costs"into the equation. It'll be too hard to predict and people will just consider it mostly a random factor.

[DiamondExcavater]

Tundra is actually the most easy "biome" in real life to recover from.

sometimes it can have hills and valleys which can be a trouble, i have seen a Soyuz landing in Russia around snow, but it was only the capsule, were talking about uncontrollable stages which can land almost anywhere with a push of wind...

[paul23]

Well couldn't that then be used? - If stagerecovery already knows the position of landing, it can also know the height - and more importantly it can know the slope. Just test 1 meter to both sides if the slope can't be gotten directly through the KSP engine. Then you can get the slope, either by using those two numbers, or fitting a polynomial & getting the derivative at the landing point.

[John Nowak]

I like the idea of mountains and water having reduced recovery values. Are there any other biomes you think should have reduced rates? For most I think the distance would be a bigger factor than the biome, but I might reduce the Ice Caps as well and maybe the tundra (possible bad weather making it harder/more expensive to recover).

I agree that distance should be a bigger factor. Water and deserts should reduce the money returned because anything landing there is likely to be damaged by sand or water, while mountains would have a chance of destroying the stage outright because they tend to be dangerous places to land.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I don't want to give penalties to every biome, but even if I did they would be different amounts for each biome

But it's possible to think of refund penalties for every biome. If you apply one, why not apply another? Desert means sand, water means water damage, ice caps/mountains means hard to get to, highlands implies hard to get to, grasslands/lowlands could mean hard to get to (depending on where on Kerbin these grass/lowlands are), the closest way to the badlands are by water.. Overall, there would be a net decrease in recovery amount ("reduced recovery rate because I realised it would be harder to get to equivalent places in real life and recover/refurbish parts from these places").

I mean, grasslands on the opposite side of Kerbin to the KSC would be the same as grasslands right next to the KSC. Yes, distance would affect refunds, I know, but ignore that, it's the idea behind it. The far-away grasslands has no biome penalty, same as the grasslands next to the KSC, even though it's on the other side of the world. Forget distance for a minute, imagine that wasn't a contributing factor - if it was biome based, grasslands 180 degrees away from each other would have the same recovery rate even though one would have to travel via mountains/water/desert/any other negative biomes. Yes, I know, distance would mean that the far-away recovery means 0 recovery value, but that's because of distance, not biome. There would be no additional penalty on top of the distance, because it landed in the same biome as the one next to the KSC, when in actual fact, there would be a massive penalty due to the adverse conditions the abstracted recovery team had to go through. You see what I'm saying?

it would be customizable for each one.

In the most polite way possible, thank god for that.

[mainframecn]

I must be doing something wrong. My stages always get destroyed, no matter how many shutes i put on the stages. I even build the exact same setup as the second demo video, everything still gets destroyed. I did the test without any other mods.

[magico13]

I must be doing something wrong. My stages always get destroyed, no matter how many shutes i put on the stages. I even build the exact same setup as the second demo video, everything still gets destroyed. I did the test without any other mods.

Just for confirmation, you're getting a message that says they're destroyed? You won't see them in the map view, but you should get a message saying they're recovered.

The chutes could be breaking. If you're deploying the chutes when dropping the stage try either not doing that or try changing the minimum pressure (right click on the chute to change that) up to 0.45 or 0.5.

If that doesn't work, something else might be bugged. Send me the log file (check this forum post for the location) and I'll take a look at it to see if anything is logged there. You can also send the craft file if you like and I can try it on my end to see if it works for me.

[Vorg]

Even .5 may not be enough. I found I had to go with .6 and hope it wasn't over a mountain. Only applies to Kerban

[magico13]

Even .5 may not be enough. I found I had to go with .6 and hope it wasn't over a mountain. Only applies to Kerban

Generally on ascent you're heading east over the water, so 0.5 should be ok. I also try to avoid dropping boosters prior to 5-7km, so I'm usually out of physics range before they'd hit the ground. It's rather dependent on play style I think, but 0.5 is way safer than the default value, that's for sure.

[linuxgurugamer]

Just a couple of questions:

1. If KCT is installed, what happens if this is installed as well?

2. If KCT includes this fuctionality, why not add an "excludes" to the CKAN .netkan file so that both won't get installed at the same time?

3. I'm used to seeing the SR windows to see thr results of the recovery. Where would that be in KCT?

Thanks

[magico13]

1. If KCT is installed, what happens if this is installed as well?

2. If KCT includes this fuctionality, why not add an "excludes" to the CKAN .netkan file so that both won't get installed at the same time?

3. I'm used to seeing the SR windows to see thr results of the recovery. Where would that be in KCT?

I should preface this with the fact that KCT no longer includes any of this functionality. StageRecovery is now the only way to recover parts for KCT without manually clicking the recover button.

1. KCT uses the StageRecovery API to detect when stages are recovered and adds the parts to the inventory. If the speed is between the low cutoff and the high cutoff, there is a chance parts are "too damaged" to be used further. When that happens you still get the funds back, but the part isn't added to the inventory. It's per-part, so you might only lose one part or you might lose all of them.

2. KCT no longer includes this functionality. When it did, KCT's was a "watered down" version with way less features. When the two were installed, KCT would disable it's code and only use StageRecovery's. That's why I didn't add a conflict, because StageRecovery was the upgraded form and they were designed to be 100% compatible.

3. KCT no longer has this functionality, but when it did you'd receive a message when something was recovered. It didn't have failure reports, had way less info in the reports, couldn't do powered recovery, and couldn't recover Kerbals or Science.

[linuxgurugamer]

I should preface this with the fact that KCT no longer includes any of this functionality. StageRecovery is now the only way to recover parts for KCT without manually clicking the recover button.

1. KCT uses the StageRecovery API to detect when stages are recovered and adds the parts to the inventory. If the speed is between the low cutoff and the high cutoff, there is a chance parts are "too damaged" to be used further. When that happens you still get the funds back, but the part isn't added to the inventory. It's per-part, so you might only lose one part or you might lose all of them.

2. KCT no longer includes this functionality. When it did, KCT's was a "watered down" version with way less features. When the two were installed, KCT would disable it's code and only use StageRecovery's. That's why I didn't add a conflict, because StageRecovery was the upgraded form and they were designed to be 100% compatible.

3. KCT no longer has this functionality, but when it did you'd receive a message when something was recovered. It didn't have failure reports, had way less info in the reports, couldn't do powered recovery, and couldn't recover Kerbals or Science.

I think I got the message that KCT no longer has this functionality.

thanks

:-)

LGG

[magico13]

Well, I wanted to explain how they used to work together, in case you or anyone else was interested I'm probably the only one who cares enough about the code to find it interesting

[mainframecn]

Just for confirmation, you're getting a message that says they're destroyed? You won't see them in the map view, but you should get a message saying they're recovered.

The chutes could be breaking. If you're deploying the chutes when dropping the stage try either not doing that or try changing the minimum pressure (right click on the chute to change that) up to 0.45 or 0.5.

If that doesn't work, something else might be bugged. Send me the log file (check this forum post for the location) and I'll take a look at it to see if anything is logged there. You can also send the craft file if you like and I can try it on my end to see if it works for me.

Yes. I get a red message saying the stages are destroyed. Even in the SR window it says they are destroyed. (Therm. Vel. around 200mps). Even changed to 0.5 pressure.

I will send the log as soon as I can.

Oddly enough, I've tried the same thing on my laptop, which is an exact copy of the ksp installation (steam, including mods and saves), the setup works like it should.Even the preview in the editor says it will be able to recover.

I will collect the log and after also do a reinstall of the ksp to make sure.

Thank you for your support.

[BlackHat]

Love Stage Recovery.... That said....

I hate how I have to scroll down on most messages to see how much I recovered. (Its KSP's message window so you cant do anything about that...)

Except maybe reorder what the data displayed is.

Currently (IIRC) It lists:

How far the stage landed away from KSC

a list of "parts" recovered with prices

% received due to distance

% received due to speed

Landed speed

Cash received.

Personally I would rather see the part list last. That would put all the important data on the top of the message and I could scroll down to see the parts if I wanted to.

Any chance of getting this, Or maybe have it as an optional message text display order.

[magico13]

Yes. I get a red message saying the stages are destroyed. Even in the SR window it says they are destroyed. (Therm. Vel. around 200mps). Even changed to 0.5 pressure.

Oddly enough, I've tried the same thing on my laptop, which is an exact copy of the ksp installation (steam, including mods and saves), the setup works like it should.Even the preview in the editor says it will be able to recover.

That's rather strange. It sounds like the parachutes aren't being detected correctly. A full removal of the KSP folder and a fresh download might fix that, especially if it's working correctly on a different computer. Definitely send me the logs if you're still having trouble after doing that, when you get the chance. Hopefully a fresh install fixes it though!

I hate how I have to scroll down on most messages to see how much I recovered. (Its KSP's message window so you cant do anything about that...)

Personally I would rather see the part list last. That would put all the important data on the top of the message and I could scroll down to see the parts if I wanted to.

That makes a lot of sense, so I'll reorder things for the next release. Funds returned and percentages will be moved up top, with the parts list probably moved all the way to the bottom. That way it doesn't matter how long the parts list is, you'll still get the fixed-size and arguably more important data at the top. Thanks for the suggestion! It seems like it'd be common sense to do it that way, but I haven't thought much about the recovery messages lately so it never occurred to me to put those in a more sensible order

[KerbMav]

In Shimmy's stream he delivered a rover by plane and that was where it hit me:

Would it be possible to define parameters like "does it have wings", "does it fly level" (almost no vertical velocity) or similar to recognize a plane that might land safely after it dropped its cargo or launched a rocket into orbit etc.?

[magico13]

Planes usually can be recovered through the powered recovery process, but that requires a thrust to weight ratio of >1. I'm still thinking of how to best figure out if a vessel is a plane rather than a rocket, but several rockets are built with jet engine first stages (so can't just check for jets) and some planes use a tiny amount of wings (so can't just check wing area).

I might just check for how the landing gear is set up, though I have seen planes (SSTOs) that have landing legs around the tail for airless bodies. Basically KSP allows too much freedom

[DiamondExcavater]

some planes use a tiny amount of wings (so can't just check wing area).

Use wings as is, if it even has only 2 small surface flaps or small wings, it'll still have wings and an amount of lift, so even if a rocket stage has wings it will count it as a plane because anything with wings can travel a distance, that's where lift to weight and drag comes in, so even if a plane uses 3 wings or a rocket does too, it will still glide.....

[magico13]

Use wings as is, if it even has only 2 small surface flaps or small wings, it'll still have wings and an amount of lift, so even if a rocket stage has wings it will count it as a plane because anything with wings can travel a distance, that's where lift to weight and drag comes in, so even if a plane uses 3 wings or a rocket does too, it will still glide.....

This question isn't about glide distance, it's about trying to land without engines or with minimal engines. It ultimately can come down to the glide slope, but there's still the whole "calculating the drag coefficient" problem, which opposes the "Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS)" principle. I'd rather have a simple assumption than a detailed but complicated solution, at least at first. Many people are the opposite.