[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[rockshow4070]

From what I understand, a mod 'uses an ORS resource' as long as its resource simply has the same name as one of ORS's definitions (since ORS actually doesn't create any 'resources' in the stock KSP sense - it just defines where resources named certain things might be found in various concentrations in various parts of the Kerbol system.) TAC, in that sense, can 'use' ORS because its Water is named the same as ORS's Water. Since ORS was made originally for KSPI, all of KSPI's resources use the same names as ORS's resources.

Near Future is very close, but ORS's resource is named 'Argon' while Near Future's is named 'ArgonGas', for example, so you'd have to either modify/extend ORS to have 'ArgonGas' resource definitions, or Near Future would need to be modified to use the ORS resource names.

Since ORS doesn't actually create any KSP resources, it's up to mod authors to create resources and, if they want them to work with ORS, give them the correct names (or create ORS definitions with names that the author wants to use).

Some of that MIGHT be wrong. Just what I've figured out on my own so far. =P

That makes sense. Thanks!

Edited July 31, 2014 by rockshow4070
Accidental double post

[Robotengineer]

For my air scoop, do I need the module KarboniteAtmoExxtractor even though I don't have an animation?

[Nertea]

I did some coding-type stuff for ORS some time back, and just spent an hour making it actually kinda work. There's two components, an overlay visualizer for concentrations and a procedural deposit generator. The first draws a large sphere over the planet and maps concentration values to a color value pulled out of a color bar (specified per resource, showed two examples below). The transparency of the overlay is pulled from the color bar's alpha, so it can be transparent at low concentration, as I did in the pictures. The second one generates perlin noise deposits with an option to use biomes to control the distribution (can specify biomes that have less concentration). Still tweaking these values, but works pretty well so far.

Currently it's just a Unity prototype, but it works pretty well and the deposit map generation isn't too slow. I'll clean up the code in the next few days and give it to RoverDude, see if he can make something out of it.

[sirklick]

I did some coding-type stuff for ORS some time back, and just spent an hour making it actually kinda work. There's two components, an overlay visualizer for concentrations and a procedural deposit generator. The first draws a large sphere over the planet and maps concentration values to a color value pulled out of a color bar (specified per resource, showed two examples below). The transparency of the overlay is pulled from the color bar's alpha, so it can be transparent at low concentration, as I did in the pictures. The second one generates perlin noise deposits with an option to use biomes to control the distribution (can specify biomes that have less concentration). Still tweaking these values, but works pretty well so far.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/overlays.png

Currently it's just a Unity prototype, but it works pretty well and the deposit map generation isn't too slow. I'll clean up the code in the next few days and give it to RoverDude, see if he can make something out of it.

Wow -very nice looking examples Nertea! How are you mapping the resources onto a sphere like that without severe polar pinching?

[Nertea]

I am cunningly not showing the polar pinching . I'm actually not 100% sure how ORS avoids this (I suspect it doesn't) as it uses rectangular maps also.

[dbmorpher]

So I made the model for the scramjet but for some reason the .mu exporter I used didn't work, but I'll look into it.

[Doctor Axel]

I did some coding-type stuff for ORS some time back, and just spent an hour making it actually kinda work. There's two components, an overlay visualizer for concentrations and a procedural deposit generator. The first draws a large sphere over the planet and maps concentration values to a color value pulled out of a color bar (specified per resource, showed two examples below). The transparency of the overlay is pulled from the color bar's alpha, so it can be transparent at low concentration, as I did in the pictures. The second one generates perlin noise deposits with an option to use biomes to control the distribution (can specify biomes that have less concentration). Still tweaking these values, but works pretty well so far.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/overlays.png

Currently it's just a Unity prototype, but it works pretty well and the deposit map generation isn't too slow. I'll clean up the code in the next few days and give it to RoverDude, see if he can make something out of it.

That is hecka awesome. =D I'd be willing to forsake ScanSAT integration if something like this was bundled with Ka/ORS.

Not sure I understand what you're doing re: biomes tho. What does the gradient mean in that case?...

[Mutifex]

Mind if I ask a few questions? You seem to know whats going on.

Does TAC use ORS? From what I know, KSPI does, and if I understand RoverDude's goals for the mod the goal is to have as many mods as possible using ORS, which has a sort of common resource library. From what I gather from that, mods that use the same or a similar resource (such as TAC and KSPI both using water) only actually require one resource, rather than multiple of what is, functionally, the same thing. Is that right?

If it is, KSPI has a good amount of resources. Would they all be included in ORS for other mods to take advantage of if they so choose? For instance, KSPI and Near Future both use Argon. If the mod authors chose to do so, would they both use the same resource files for argon?

All of the resources in KSPI are a part of ORS yes. Anyone could use them as the basis of their project or indeed build upon it and make new things. It has just been a little unfortunate I guess that until RoverDude came along, no-one was. It is a shame. It already works pretty well and with more usage it is bound to become even better.

[CaptRobau]

Nertea would this overlay work for things other than resources. For example SCANsat like maps. Being able to have a Biome overlay, or a height map, etc. would be a great boon to visualize planet/moon data.

[Robotengineer]

Any feedback on the airscoop or do you like it how it is?

[RoverDude]

A little feedback:

- landing legs of the 'all-in-one' structural frame doesn't deploy/retract using 'g' key ,

- the small sensor is more than over-powered (it may have been feed with karbonite when it was younger ), it can detect hotspots at quite far distances (> 100-200kms !)

Two fixes - legless frames (3 and 4 fold), and I'll see if I have time to plug in an action key. No 'G' on this one as it makes for a wonky UI since it's four legs in one.

For my air scoop, do I need the module KarboniteAtmoExxtractor even though I don't have an animation?

Not sure tbh, try and let me know

I did some coding-type stuff for ORS some time back, and just spent an hour making it actually kinda work. There's two components, an overlay visualizer for concentrations and a procedural deposit generator. The first draws a large sphere over the planet and maps concentration values to a color value pulled out of a color bar (specified per resource, showed two examples below). The transparency of the overlay is pulled from the color bar's alpha, so it can be transparent at low concentration, as I did in the pictures. The second one generates perlin noise deposits with an option to use biomes to control the distribution (can specify biomes that have less concentration). Still tweaking these values, but works pretty well so far.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/overlays.png

Currently it's just a Unity prototype, but it works pretty well and the deposit map generation isn't too slow. I'll clean up the code in the next few days and give it to RoverDude, see if he can make something out of it.

Beautiful

So I made the model for the scramjet but for some reason the .mu exporter I used didn't work, but I'll look into it.

I'll take a raw file (blend, FBX, dae)

All of the resources in KSPI are a part of ORS yes. Anyone could use them as the basis of their project or indeed build upon it and make new things. It has just been a little unfortunate I guess that until RoverDude came along, no-one was. It is a shame. It already works pretty well and with more usage it is bound to become even better.

That's my goal

Any feedback on the airscoop or do you like it how it is?

I'll want to plug it in game, will post some pics of it in action and play with it as I sort through more parts

[sidfu]

hopely can later have where when u unlock the refinery it can only do basic refining and u unlock other refining as u move up the tech tree

[Doctor Axel]

hopely can later have where when u unlock the refinery it can only do basic refining and u unlock other refining as u move up the tech tree

That would be pretty cool - and I know other mod parts have progressively unlocked abilities (mechjeb and procedural fairings are two).

[Nertea]

Nertea would this overlay work for things other than resources. For example SCANsat like maps. Being able to have a Biome overlay, or a height map, etc. would be a great boon to visualize planet/moon data.

It... might? Depends how scansat stores data. I'm sure it could be adapted.

That is hecka awesome. =D I'd be willing to forsake ScanSAT integration if something like this was bundled with Ka/ORS.

Not sure I understand what you're doing re: biomes tho. What does the gradient mean in that case?...

Gradient is the same thing - the biomes affect the procedural generation of deposits - for that example in those images, ice caps and ocean don't generate any deposits, and mountains generate lots.

[sidfu]

that would be good to do nertea as rather have procedrual genrated resouces over static any day. thats one of the few things i like about kethane is how it can be random.

btw are the modules for the drill and refinery finish was gonna mess around with the .cfg to try some stuff.

[DMagic]

It... might? Depends how scansat stores data. I'm sure it could be adapted.

Gradient is the same thing - the biomes affect the procedural generation of deposits - for that example in those images, ice caps and ocean don't generate any deposits, and mountains generate lots.

That's very cool Nertea. The terrain height data from SCANsat is stored in a cache, but isn't directly accessible from outside assemblies. There's no real reason for that though, and it would be simple to make that (it's just a big 3D float array) public, or publicly readable. There is already a very easily accessible public method for checking if an area has been scanned (it was added to make for easier integration with Science Alert through reflection); adding another would be no problem.

The bigger problems are that SCANsat's caching is kind-of crap, I'm certain there are much better ways to do it and it will probably change at some point. And that terrain height calculations are very slow when done in such large amounts. I'm not sure what kind of resolution you would need to get a good looking terrain overlay in the map view; it could be a problem if it requires something very high resolution.

[Shiv]

Quick question: does Minmus have any current Karbonite hotspots? I don't see any when I scan it with the scanner, but the scanner works for other planets (well, Kerbin) so I assume they've not been added to Minmus yet?

Edited August 1, 2014 by Shiv

[SpeedDaemon]

Would it be possible to limit a single refinery unit to converting to a single resource? Then allow a tweak in the VAB to choose what resource. The KSPI generators sort of work this way - change modes in the VAB but then are locked into that configuration in flight.

This way we could avoid having a magic converts-everything-at-the-same-time part, but still avoid part bloat.

It also would dovetail well with unlocking certain conversion in the tech tree, or even the ability to upgrade it to be able to convert two resources.

Could maybe do something similar with the resource extraction parts...

[Qberticus]

@DMagic: I've always found it kind of odd that SCANsat provides the map as you scan. You could reduce the need for caching if you required some type of post processing of the mapped data. From the user's perspective it would be similar to how science is currently derived from it. This way you would only need to track the areas that were scanned in real-time. Then process the scanned area into a higher quality / resolution when the map is 'analyzed' and save that to a png in a few different resolutions. Then when the person request the map you're just drawing a texture.

[nli2work]

Firing test of future Ka fueled atmospheric engine. turn up your volume.

[protoz]

Firing test of future Ka fueled atmospheric engine. turn up your volume.

I wish I could make something like that, very nice.

[DMagic]

@DMagic: I've always found it kind of odd that SCANsat provides the map as you scan. You could reduce the need for caching if you required some type of post processing of the mapped data. From the user's perspective it would be similar to how science is currently derived from it. This way you would only need to track the areas that were scanned in real-time. Then process the scanned area into a higher quality / resolution when the map is 'analyzed' and save that to a png in a few different resolutions. Then when the person request the map you're just drawing a texture.

This was essentially how ISA worked, it just saved the map as a texture, and as such it was a huge memory hog. That's the trade-off, you can swallow 100's of MB of RAM, or you can have this slow method that's fairly light on RAM. I have some ideas for improvements, but haven't really worked on SCANsat recently.

[blackheart612]

Firing test of future Ka fueled atmospheric engine. turn up your volume.

I don't like an engine like that but the way it's done, your design, the specular... it's..... it's..... beautiful.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Would it be possible to limit a single refinery unit to converting to a single resource? Then allow a tweak in the VAB to choose what resource. The KSPI generators sort of work this way - change modes in the VAB but then are locked into that configuration in flight.

This way we could avoid having a magic converts-everything-at-the-same-time part, but still avoid part bloat.

It also would dovetail well with unlocking certain conversion in the tech tree, or even the ability to upgrade it to be able to convert two resources.

Could maybe do something similar with the resource extraction parts...

Yes it is. Try this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/CustomKarboniteExtractor%20%28v1%29.zip

It's a quick and dirty custom converter template thing I put together, with instructions for those who don't know what to do with it. Both the instructions and the parts may or may not work, RoverDude was going to take a look at it at some point, but haven't heard one way or the other (or am blind, which is very possible).

[dbmorpher]

Alright so here's the .dae, I'll look at the turbojet part and steal from there just be forewarned this is my first time making a part...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwp_yeS55-mWbEx0UU1HRU1xRUk/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: Just found some clipped faces, I deleted them.

Edited August 1, 2014 by dbmorpher