[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Akira_R]

Hey RoverDude just a little something I found while playing the other night, I was playing in science sandbox and opened up the debug window and noticed allot of red spam in the log, it all was saying something about not being able to load texture Kerbin_Karbonite while I was at Kerbin, same thing for Mun_Karbonite while there. From what I know usually this is fixed by adding a keepLoaded comand pointing at the folder the texture file is in to texture replacer, but of course you already have that, I checked it just to make sure there were no spelling issues or something silly like that and didn't notice anything.

Now this didn't seem to cause any issues or anything while I was playing, however I wasn't trying to scan for Karbonite or mine it or anything.

I do have allot of mods installed but I don't think I've ever seen this caused by conflicting mods. I'm running KSP 32bit on windows with Karbonite 0.1.1, sorry I don't have more detailed info about what the log was saying, I don't have internet at the house atm and I'm writting this from work and can't exactly fire up KSP right now as much as I would like to lol. I have not tried a clean install with no other mods yet.

If this is already known or something then please disregard and keep the awesomeness coming.

[Justin Kerbice]

@Roverdude: yes 0.1.2, and I was not really aware of karbonite story (a shame ) is there any story yet by the way ? (on 1st post, not something which need to be "mined" first ).

@nil2work and others: so if it's the way karbonite was designed to be, so be it be not too heavy and be powerfull and explode sometimes

But ! The big issue is there is no karbonite storage to make it available as regular propellant, so it is a bit boring to either put a craft on a mining vehicle, or put a drill/scoop on a craft to drill/gather 1st then enjoy flying (or exploding).

Also, as the KAE-150S engine is very laggy, it's annoying to "scoop karbonite" for a few days (thanks TW), fly a few minutes, landing (or try to), mining/scooping, and so on. I get used to land safely with basic jet engine, but the KAE-150S is not very good for that, and I'm a terrible pilot !

Don't know how you guys play karbonite and how it was supposed to be initially but IMHO there is room for improvement here (in a pure fun point of view).

[nli2work]

Don't know how you guys play karbonite and how it was supposed to be initially but IMHO there is room for improvement here (in a pure fun point of view).

Ya got me there! I haven't even played 0.24.2 yet. I just have it to test parts and stuff. haven't properly played at all since started modding.

[RoverDude]

Hey RoverDude just a little something I found while playing the other night, I was playing in science sandbox and opened up the debug window and noticed allot of red spam in the log, it all was saying something about not being able to load texture Kerbin_Karbonite while I was at Kerbin, same thing for Mun_Karbonite while there. From what I know usually this is fixed by adding a keepLoaded comand pointing at the folder the texture file is in to texture replacer, but of course you already have that, I checked it just to make sure there were no spelling issues or something silly like that and didn't notice anything.

Now this didn't seem to cause any issues or anything while I was playing, however I wasn't trying to scan for Karbonite or mine it or anything.

I do have allot of mods installed but I don't think I've ever seen this caused by conflicting mods. I'm running KSP 32bit on windows with Karbonite 0.1.1, sorry I don't have more detailed info about what the log was saying, I don't have internet at the house atm and I'm writting this from work and can't exactly fire up KSP right now as much as I would like to lol. I have not tried a clean install with no other mods yet.

If this is already known or something then please disregard and keep the awesomeness coming.

Yep I am still fighting with texture replacer for all of my mods.. may have to suck it up and install it because this is getting silly

@Roverdude: yes 0.1.2, and I was not really aware of karbonite story (a shame ) is there any story yet by the way ? (on 1st post, not something which need to be "mined" first ).

@nil2work and others: so if it's the way karbonite was designed to be, so be it be not too heavy and be powerfull and explode sometimes

But ! The big issue is there is no karbonite storage to make it available as regular propellant, so it is a bit boring to either put a craft on a mining vehicle, or put a drill/scoop on a craft to drill/gather 1st then enjoy flying (or exploding).

Also, as the KAE-150S engine is very laggy, it's annoying to "scoop karbonite" for a few days (thanks TW), fly a few minutes, landing (or try to), mining/scooping, and so on. I get used to land safely with basic jet engine, but the KAE-150S is not very good for that, and I'm a terrible pilot !

Don't know how you guys play karbonite and how it was supposed to be initially but IMHO there is room for improvement here (in a pure fun point of view).

What do you mean by story? And I don't understand RE storage - we have a wide variety of tanks as well as converters, plus it's tweakable in the VAB...

Also you have to realize those engines are not meant for Kerbin - they are downright lousy for Kerbin Those are more for Jool which is Karbonite-rich

[tygoo7]

SO the best way for me to help you... seriously. Clean install. Karb zip only. Slowly re-add your mods (and you have a ton of them) one by one or even five by five. Anything with graphics (EVE, etc.) do last. If it works fine without anything visual then slowly add those in till we find the culprit. If it slows down before that, uninstall the one or ones you just added and move on to the next group. Eventually we're going to find a conflict.

Alright, I made a separate install with only Karbonite. I'm slowly putting each mod in one by one to see who the culprit is.

[Ratzap]

I look forward to your pull request

Don't hold your breath It'll come but like many of us, I fit this stuff into my evenings. But I'll ping once I have things ready to go.

[tygoo7]

*facepalm* I found the culprit! It was a duplicate folder of Karbonite from an older version and that was conflicting with the newer one so that is what was making it slow down. I deleted that folder so that I only have the new one and now it's working really nicely.

[Justin Kerbice]

What do you mean by story? And I don't understand RE storage - we have a wide variety of tanks as well as converters, plus it's tweakable in the VAB...

Also you have to realize those engines are not meant for Kerbin - they are downright lousy for Kerbin Those are more for Jool which is Karbonite-rich

Story = what is karbonite, where is it, how kerbal use it, for what purpose, etc to summarize: the background (I know, bad habits may comes from KSP itself as we know nothing about kerbals, who they are, ... modders tend to copycat Squad ). Usually, there is a story, even a single foolish paragraph for old action games.

RE storage ? RE ? I juts means as you prevent tank to be tweakable in VAB (last time I checked), they are all empty and can't be filled. I know I can also edit part config to enforce this but don't want to.

And like nil2work, I don't play as much as I would like to, modding took too much of my avail time and I just "get" to Duna (have a few hard landing, some other better), so Jool is not on my plan yet. But if you wish to play "honest", it means to send a lot's of heavy payload to Jool just after days or years (in game) to enjoy karbonite stuff... And engines are so powerful they are good enough for Kerbin, just propellant is quite missing.

[bpuk]

RE storage ? RE ? I juts means as you prevent tank to be tweakable in VAB (last time I checked), they are all empty and can't be filled. I know I can also edit part config to enforce this but don't want to.

On a fresh install of 0.24.2 with only Karbonite 0.1.2 installed the tanks are tweakable in VAB.

hmm...you are on 0.1.2 for the drills correct?

On the fresh install mentioned above, the action groups aren't working. I've pulled a fresh copy from your git, compiled and dropped the two dll's in. It now works as expected

Was I supposed to include an updated dll in the pull request?

[Shad0wCatcher]

I found my issue with textures not being readable. Culprit wasn't TextureReplacer at all. Just threw a TR error >.> It was however an incorrectly set config in ActiveTextureManagement. For anyone having severe framerate issues stemming from error log spam talking about resource textures not being readable; check to see if there's an ATM config for that mod and ensure that the textures it's looking for are in the exclusion list for being made not readable. In my case it was KSP-I experimental. ORS (the culprit I thought was responsible, apologies again Rover! though it was ultimately responsible! haha ) kept trying to reload the configuration files when it couldn't read KSPI's planetresourcedata textures since ATM had them set to not readable, throwing the TR error and causing ORS to try and reload all its configuration files over and over and over and rover..err. Any rate the rate of it reloading caused enough of a slowdown that the game in the flight scene was completely unplayable (seconds per frame). So let that be a lesson! I don't know what kind of lesson but I'm sure there's one there somewhere.

[Olympic1]

I found my issue with textures not being readable. Culprit wasn't TextureReplacer at all. Just threw a TR error >.> It was however an incorrectly set config in ActiveTextureManagement. For anyone having severe framerate issues stemming from error log spam talking about resource textures not being readable; check to see if there's an ATM config for that mod and ensure that the textures it's looking for are in the exclusion list for being made not readable. In my case it was KSP-I experimental. ORS (the culprit I thought was responsible, apologies again Rover! though it was ultimately responsible! haha ) kept trying to reload the configuration files when it couldn't read KSPI's planetresourcedata textures since ATM had them set to not readable, throwing the TR error and causing ORS to try and reload all its configuration files over and over and over and rover..err. Any rate the rate of it reloading caused enough of a slowdown that the game in the flight scene was completely unplayable (seconds per frame). So let that be a lesson! I don't know what kind of lesson but I'm sure there's one there somewhere.

ATM is more problematic than TR, that's the reason I switched over to TR

[Shad0wCatcher]

Yea I'd delete if it I wanted to run 64 bit again; but I have so many mods in use that trying to figure out what the hell breaks when I switch over to it is an exercise in frustration. As it stands on 32 bit and OpenGL I'm running into a unity error that's not letting me recover Kerbals from a landed state. So far I've lost both Jeb and Bill as they're stuck swimming for the time being; at least until they run out of food and drinking water.

[Angelo Kerman]

Story = what is karbonite, where is it, how kerbal use it, for what purpose, etc to summarize: the background (I know, bad habits may comes from KSP itself as we know nothing about kerbals, who they are, ... modders tend to copycat Squad ). Usually, there is a story, even a single foolish paragraph for old action games.

RE storage ? RE ? I juts means as you prevent tank to be tweakable in VAB (last time I checked), they are all empty and can't be filled. I know I can also edit part config to enforce this but don't want to.

And like nil2work, I don't play as much as I would like to, modding took too much of my avail time and I just "get" to Duna (have a few hard landing, some other better), so Jool is not on my plan yet. But if you wish to play "honest", it means to send a lot's of heavy payload to Jool just after days or years (in game) to enjoy karbonite stuff... And engines are so powerful they are good enough for Kerbin, just propellant is quite missing.

Hm...

Karbonite is an oily black crystaline substance that contains volitile hydrocarbons that can be liquified and distilled into a variety of products including petrochemicals, plastics, oils, and rocket fuel. Kabonite is largely responsible for fueling Kebin's Industrial Age- and polluting the skies. Nearly all modern vehicles on the road run on karbonite or a fuel derived from it, and nations are known to use the flow of karbonite- or the lack thereof- for political gain. The Great Karbonite Embargo is one such example that led to skyrocketing fuel prices and inflation.

Karbonite is a naturally occurring substance that exists on Kerbin and is believed to exist throughout the solar system. Scientists believe that asteroid bombardment during the early period of Kerbin's formation brought karbonite to the surface, and thus asteroids are thought to contain karbonite deposits as well. While typically found as a solid in the crust of a planet or burried in an asteroid, trace amounts of karbonite can also be found dissolved in oceans. Additionally, trace amounts of dust-form karbonite are theorized to exist in the atmospheres of some worlds, all the way up to and including the exosphere. As the technology to harvest karbonite improves, perhaps future spacecraft could even scoop up the substance from just above an atmosphere.

While not as clean burning as traditional rocket fuels, karbonite is effective as a propellant. Engines consuming karbonite generate greater thrust than traditionally fueled counterparts while suffering from worse ISP. Additionally, engines fueled by karbonite are more prone to overheat and explode. Since karbonite provides its own oxidizer, jet engines and turbofans powered by the substance can operate in atmospheres lacking significant amounts of oxygen.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Angel-125

[sober667]

i make somethink fun i take fuel thank with no oxidizer and aerospike rocket and scoop trigered to oxygen and i can simply start rocket with no oxidizer on lauchpad and at full trust get enough to lauch small rocket to orbit (smaller mass-better trust to mass rate)

[Tw1]

Hm...

Karbonite is an oily black crystaline substance ---.

A warning- It may be much better to leave somethings ambiguous. Locking in a back story is not necessarily going to add to people's enjoyment of the mod, and will open up potential problems.

First, detailed explanation will create 'science holes' -like plot holes, these are little things that jar- Oil like and Crystalline? Hydrocarbons, somehow found everywhere?

As well as that, KSP tends to be very light on story, giving people room to imagine their own. What if I want to imagine kerbals mostly live in a clean energy world with solar-electric cars? Again, it's going to jar. Don't go giving people things they'll want to ignore.

At the moment, Karbonite references our oil enough that one could fill in the blanks, and see it as kerbalish crude, yet not so much that they have to. (So basically, I'd dump the first paragraph,)

That said, mucking around with this so far has been pretty fun.

One other thought- due to the nature of this project, it could eventually end up with a whole bunch of parts that are just clutter to some people. For example, stock parts can do the job of that leg thing.

If you decide to keep broadening, perhaps consider having non-core parts as separate downloads.

That, or setting up subfolders with in the parts folder, so sets that aren't wanted can easily be deleted by the player.

I like how there are separate converter things though, which is nice, as one who plans to use this alongside kethane, I like the different feel its got. I did wonder if it might make flying about on other planets a little too easy, but from the looks of things, that will come as the parts are balanced.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Tw1

[Arkyknight]

Can someone please tell me how to install the Karbonite mod? Also will it work with the B9 aerospace mod?

[RoverDude]

A warning- It may be much better to leave everything ambiguous. Locking in a back story is not necessarily going to add to people's enjoyment of the mod, and will open up potential problems.

First, detailed explanation will create 'science holes' -like plot holes, these are little things that jar- Oil like and Crystalline? Hydrocarbons, somehow found everywhere?

As well as that, KSP tends to be very light on story, giving people room to imagine their own. What if I want to imagine kerbals mostly live in a clean energy world with solar-electric cars? Again, it's going to jar. Don't go giving people things they'll want to ignore.

At the moment, Karbonite references our oil enough that one could fill in the blanks, and see it as kerbalish crude, yet not so much that they have to.

That said, mucking around with this so far has been pretty fun.

One other thought- due to the nature of this project, it could eventually end up with a whole bunch of parts that are just clutter to some people. For example, stock parts can do the job of that leg thing.

If you decide to keep broadening, perhaps consider having non-core parts as separate downloads.

That, or setting up subfolders with in the parts folder, so sets that aren't wanted can easily be deleted by the player.

Thanks for the input! And I can most definitely see us splitting some bits off into either subfolders or separate parts packs down the road.

[NoMrBond]

Dahud is streaming Karbonite on KSPTV!

[Dire_Squid]

Hey Roverdude, I recall a while ago you were making a smaller drill... but I realized something easier and more accessible:

Tweakscale the radial drill!

THAT WAY (once I can get a new version of KAS, or a license-friendly substitute) we can change the size of that drill, and (with KAS or a substitute) connect it to things.

Just a thought.

[jon chef]

Hm...

Karbonite is an oily black crystaline substance that contains volitile hydrocarbons that can be liquified and distilled into a variety of products including petrochemicals, plastics, oils, and rocket fuel. Kabonite is largely responsible for fueling Kebin's Industrial Age- and polluting the skies. Nearly all modern vehicles on the road run on karbonite or a fuel derived from it, and nations are known to use the flow of karbonite- or the lack thereof- for political gain. The Great Karbonite Embargo is one such example that led to skyrocketing fuel prices and inflation.

Karbonite is a naturally occurring substance that exists on Kerbin and is believed to exist throughout the solar system. Scientists believe that asteroid bombardment during the early period of Kerbin's formation brought karbonite to the surface, and thus asteroids are thought to contain karbonite deposits as well. While typically found as a solid in the crust of a planet or burried in an asteroid, trace amounts of karbonite can also be found dissolved in oceans. Additionally, trace amounts of dust-form karbonite are theorized to exist in the atmospheres of some worlds, all the way up to and including the exosphere. As the technology to harvest karbonite improves, perhaps future spacecraft could even scoop up the substance from just above an atmosphere.

While not as clean burning as traditional rocket fuels, karbonite is effective as a propellant. Engines consuming karbonite generate greater thrust than traditionally fueled counterparts while suffering from worse ISP. Additionally, engines fueled by karbonite are more prone to overheat and explode. Since karbonite provides its own oxidizer, jet engines and turbofans powered by the substance can operate in atmospheres lacking significant amounts of oxygen.

Mmm Karbonite (from the Old English term Kal, which has meant "mineral of fossilized carbon" since the 13th century)

Is a combustible black or brownish-black sedimentary slush usually occurring in rock strata in layers or veins called Karbonite beds or Karbonite seams.

The harder forms, such as anthracited Karbonite ,

Can be regarded as metamorphic Karbonite because of later exposure to elevated temperature and pressure.

Karbonite is composed primarily of carbon along with variable quantities of other elements, chiefly hydrogen, sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen.

Edited August 6, 2014 by jon chef

[RoverDude]

Dahud is streaming Karbonite on KSPTV!

Too bad it broke on him Duplicate ORS bug

This is why I must fork this.

[marce]

Too bad it broke on him Duplicate ORS bug

This is why I must fork this.

He also got very confused by the MW display. You know, we people are stupid, don't give us anything unexpected to deal with

And now I'll stop insisting and let you do your precious work man.

[RoverDude]

He also got very confused by the MW display. You know, we people are stupid, don't give us anything unexpected to deal with

And now I'll stop insisting and let you do your precious work man.

Oh - I just yoinked in that pull request

[SorensonPA]

Not really knowledgeable about all this community development stuff, so I'll just drop this off here and the Procedural parts thread: a config file for procedural Karbonite tanks that gets preeeeeeetty darn close to mod-stock mass and volume values. Only thing it's lacking is one of those [Need] triggers that hides it if you don't have a certain mod/part installed since I couldn't nail down a functional one for all get.

PART
{
	// --- general parameters ---
	name = proceduralTankKarbonite
	module = Part
	author = AncientGammoner, NathanKell, Swamp Ig, OtherBarry

	// --- asset parameters ---
	MODEL
	{
		model = ProceduralParts/Parts/cylinderTank
		scale = 1,1,1
	}
	scale = 1
	rescaleFactor = 1

	// --- node definitions ---
	node_stack_top=0,0.5,0,0,1,0,1
	node_stack_bottom=0,-0.5,0,0,-1,0,1
	node_attach=0,0,0.5,0,0,-1,1

	// --- editor parameters ---
	cost = 4000
	TechRequired = heavyRocketry
	entryCost = 4000
	category = Propulsion
	subcategory = 0
	title = Procedural Karbonite Tank
	manufacturer = Kerbchem Industries
	description = Made from viscoelastic nanopolymers (which were discovered by accident... growing in the back of the office mini-fridge) this fuel tank can be stretched to accommodate Karbonite in a range of sizes and shapes. Hardens to a rigid structure before launch!

	// attachment rules: stack, srfAttach, allowStack, allowSrfAttach, allowCollision
	attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0

	// --- standard part parameters ---
	mass = 1.2
	dragModelType = default
	maximum_drag = 0.2
	minimum_drag = 0.2
	angularDrag = 1
	crashTolerance = 12
	breakingForce = 500
	breakingTorque = 500
	maxTemp = 3200


	MODULE
	{
		name = ProceduralPart
		textureSet = OrangeSides

		TECHLIMIT {
			name = start
			diameterMin = 1.0
			diameterMax = 1.5
			lengthMin = 1.0
			lengthMax = 2.0
			volumeMin = 1.5
			volumeMax = 3.0
		}

		TECHLIMIT {
			name = heavyRocketry
			diameterMax = 3.0
			volumeMax = 35.0
			lengthMax = 7.5
		}

		TECHLIMIT {
			// Make everything unlimited for metaMaterials
			name = metaMaterials
			diameterMin = 0.01
			diameterMax = Infinity
			lengthMin = 0.01
			lengthMax = Infinity
			volumeMin = 0.01
			volumeMax = Infinity
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ProceduralShapeCylinder
		displayName = Cylinder
		techRequired = start

		length = 1.00
		diameter = 1.25
	}
	MODULE 
	{
		name = ProceduralShapeCone
		displayName = Cone
		techRequired = generalConstruction

		length = 1.0
		topDiameter = 0.625
		bottomDiameter = 1.25
	}
	MODULE 
	{
		name = ProceduralShapePill
		displayName = Fillet Cylinder
		techRequired = advConstruction

		length = 1.0
		diameter = 1.25
		fillet = 0.25
	}
	MODULE 
	{
		name = ProceduralShapeBezierCone
		displayName = Smooth Cone
		techRequired = advConstruction

		length = 1.0
		topDiameter = 0.625
		bottomDiameter = 1.25
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = TankContentSwitcher
		useVolume = true


		TANK_TYPE_OPTION 
		{
			name = Karbonite
			// This is the dry mass of the tank per kL of volume.
			dryDensity = 0.108
			RESOURCE 
			{
				name = Karbonite
				unitsPerKL = 173
				forceEmpty = true
			}
		}
	}
}

[FaceDeer]

Thanks for the input! And I can most definitely see us splitting some bits off into either subfolders or separate parts packs down the road.

That'd be nice, it'll make it easier to take or leave just the functionality that I'm interested in. In Kethane, for example, I always threw away that Kerbal-to-Kethane generator unit (ick) and it was annoying having to dig it out each time. And I have some trouble with the thermodynamics of Karbonite rockets, so I'd prefer to just have the mine-and-convert stuff.