[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[togfox]

Edit: fixed - thx. Ignore this post.

So I installed all five folders. I attached a scanner to my crewless probe - pushed it out to the launch pad. The animation on the scanner works. I can see 85 "units" (ppm? - forget) of Karbonite. I can click "show hotspots" but the hot spot doesn't actually show. Which part of the install fixes that? Do I need scansat or anything like that to display hotspots?

Also at the KSC screen I get a black box module manager with two buttons "Reload Database" & "Dump Database". I've used MM before and never saw that. MM 2.2.1 and pretty sure that's the only instance installed. Cheers.

Edited August 13, 2014 by togfox

[Stage]

Activate the scanner and go to map view. There you'll probalby see the spheres showing hot spots. Karbonite is available (conenctration of 85ppm at KSC), hotspots are areas with much higher concentration.

The black box is a new feature of MM sincs 2.2.1 (or 2.2.0, not sure).

[togfox]

Yeah - got it now -thx. Had to restart game for some reason - all good!

[Biotronic]

I think there's an issue with karbonite and the latest tweakscale (1.79).

I scaled the large tank to 3.75m, it will update the max capacity in the editor to 21600. Then when you go to launch, you'll have 21600/800, and it seems to break from there. Returning to the editor via revert to hangar makes the max be set to 800, but still containing 21600.

[Warning]: [TweakScale Warning] Duplicate TweakScale module on part [KA.Tank.125.04] KB-4650 Karbonite Tank

Not sure if this is their issue or karbonite's issue.

This has been fixed in TweakScale 1.40. I was not aware Karbonite had added its own TweakScale config.

[Akira_R]

Hey if anyone here uses EPL and is interested in an addon/extension that deprecates Kethane and adds Karbonite functionality as well as adding a slightly more complex production chain similar to MKS you should check this out

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90471-WIP-SEDI-presents-An-EPL-addon-for-Karbonite-%28and-other-stuff%29-models-needed

It also adds the ability to produce Consumer Goods which can be recovered for profit and shinies. As well as the ability to produce consumables that a couple other mods use.

Also if any of the modelers that have been making the absolutely gorgeous models for Karbonite are interested in helping him out he is looking for some help with models.

Cheers and keep up the awesome work Rover, excited for that Freighter mod I saw you mention.

[RoverDude]

Thanks - yep, gotta work on some models since I'm stuck on a business trip. Although they will first be of the white cylinder variety because there is some stuff I want to try out.

[Nmariotti]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I really congratulate the creators for the idea of a creative-commons resources system!

But I want to do some constructive criticism. While I like the idea of an infinite resource, I think it should be infinite by recycling, not by fixed concentrations in hot spots. It is a little too easy to have non-depletable hot spots I think. But the worst problem is that it conveys the wrong message. I know its only a game, but as humans we really will face now the problem of finite resources. In a game somewhat educational like KSP, it is important to stress that resources are finite and must be recycled. I have thought of possible ways to implement this, but first it is probably better to discuss the basic idea.

[RoverDude]

So something for the thread in general.

As I was messing with ORS overlays, it begs the question... Do we even need an overlay? We have SCANSat integration, which IMO is vastly superior since I can do things like overlay my resource directly on top of a slope map, etc... and it has the whole 'scanning' thing people want.

Thoughts?

[Qberticus]

I like SCANsat the only problem I see with it atm is that the resources / scanners are hard coded. That may need to be changed so ORS and SCANsat can work together better through .cfg definitions instead of hardcoded scanner values.

[RoverDude]

I like SCANsat the only problem I see with it atm is that the resources / scanners are hard coded. That may need to be changed so ORS and SCANsat can work together better through .cfg definitions instead of hardcoded scanner values.

Fair enough. Now, I for one would be ok if it just showed the CRP resources. First, because they are curated (i.e. we won't have a billion buttons). It also encourages people to play nice, since duplicate ORS definitions cause things to lag to death.

[Cyrik]

IMHO SCANsat is fine, but there should be some way to see the concentrations on the planet, not just on the SCANsat map. Similar to the way Kathene overlays the whole planet

[CaptainCrunch]

Love you texture mockups SpeedyB. I definitely prefer cleaner and sharper colors to the defaults.

[RoverDude]

IMHO SCANsat is fine, but there should be some way to see the concentrations on the planet, not just on the SCANsat map. Similar to the way Kathene overlays the whole planet

But... we get that with SCANSat So the question is why... what visual aspect is missing? Again, just trying to make sure I zero in on the right thing.

[Akira_R]

I personally love SCANsat and love the SCANsat integration, but I hate dependencies, idk how the SCANsat license is set up but if a dependency is taken on it then I think it would be nice if the plugins could be bundled with Karbonite, if that isn't possible due to licensing then I would say that Karbonite should remain the way it is. This wouldn't have any impact on me because I use SCANsat any ways but I know how it is when i want one mod and have to download one I don't to make it work, like Kethane and EPL, I always go in and delete everything but the Kethane plugins anyways but it's still annoying (and now no longer an issue:cool:). Just my $.02

[BigFatStupidHead]

Personally, I like having to use the Scansat map for detecting concentrations, and don't ever use the 'big red basketballs' or other visual aspect to see the unseen. I know people like their map screen kethane overlay, but non-kethane folk probably just won't care.

[Cyrik]

But... we get that with SCANSat So the question is why... what visual aspect is missing? Again, just trying to make sure I zero in on the right thing.

Apparently I missed something is SCANSat then. I thought SCANSat only showed you an image of the planet, not an overlay over the planet in mapmode or fly mode. I find it a lot easier to navigate in map mode then on a SCANSat image. If SCANSat can already do this then ignore me:)

[KerbinDallas]

I'm totally for ditching the overlay but I feel a lot of people won't be. I think people have seen Kethane and now assume that another resources mod will look and play the same when in fact it's totally different. I for one like the idea much more of not being able to exhaust a planets resources because to be honest the idea that filling a few tanks with karbonite would somehow deplete the planet is ludicrous. That being said is it possible to ditch the overlay but have something like when scanner is active and you mouse over the planet in map mode you get the ppm? Just a thought, not sure if it's ideal but would suit me fine.

[bigbadben]

yeah, as RoverDude said it is better to have a concentration based system so that when you do build a giant MKS base, you don't have to move it again when the resources run out, as in kethane. And, it is more immersive, in that as KerbinDallas said the idea that a single base could use up all the resources in a couple tanks is 'ludicrous'.

However, maybe an art pass on the ORS overlay, if deciding to keep it?

I personally prefer ScanSat mapping, as I feel it is more immersive and I get a greater sense of accomplishment(!) in hunting out a good concentration. Stupid of me to feel that, perhaps haha.

One drawback on concentration base, is that it can hurt gameplay if a player is trying to simulate an 'economy', in hunting for rare elements/minerals to mine and cash it on. It removes the need to seek out and continually prospect different places, to track down a good load, and then mine it out for profit. But this is beyond the scope of this discussion, anyways. I think that is what ultimately Thurak's MoonMining Precious Metals was taking a crack at. Be cool to get the author of ORS to implement both concentration and limited based resources in his system.

What options are there for the ORS overlay that you, RoverDude, are considering anyways? Man, an ORS overlay toggle would be a great stop-gap fix. Too bad you said it would mess up things.

[Fraz86]

As I was messing with ORS overlays, it begs the question... Do we even need an overlay? We have SCANSat integration, which IMO is vastly superior since I can do things like overlay my resource directly on top of a slope map, etc... and it has the whole 'scanning' thing people want.

Thoughts?

Personally, I love the idea of SCANSat, but every time I've installed it I've ended up uninstalling it for various reasons. To me it feels bloated; too many types of scan data & scanners, user interface is too busy, and attempts to incorporate too many features. It also doesn't have the greatest track record in terms of timely updates, and (at least in the past) it has a non-trivial impact on performance.

"SCANSat Lite" would be perfect, with a single scanner that provides basic data for altimetry, biomes, and Karbonite, toggling between these 3 overlays on a simple user interface. But since I'm not aware of anyone working on a "SCANSat Lite," I would very much like for Karbonite to include basic built-in scanning & display functionality. Ideally this could be toggled on/off in the map view similar to Kethane.

[RoverDude]

Apparently I missed something is SCANSat then. I thought SCANSat only showed you an image of the planet, not an overlay over the planet in mapmode or fly mode. I find it a lot easier to navigate in map mode then on a SCANSat image. If SCANSat can already do this then ignore me:)

Ok and that's the bit I was looking for... it's the navigation aspect.

I'm totally for ditching the overlay but I feel a lot of people won't be. I think people have seen Kethane and now assume that another resources mod will look and play the same when in fact it's totally different. I for one like the idea much more of not being able to exhaust a planets resources because to be honest the idea that filling a few tanks with karbonite would somehow deplete the planet is ludicrous. That being said is it possible to ditch the overlay but have something like when scanner is active and you mouse over the planet in map mode you get the ppm? Just a thought, not sure if it's ideal but would suit me fine.

Always possible, just a matter of effort (hence the question). So to dig into both this question and the previous one... What is the benefit of viewing your overlay and PPM wrapped onto a sphere instead of on a projected planetary map? I have thoughts, but want to hear yours.

yeah, as RoverDude said it is better to have a concentration based system so that when you do build a giant MKS base, you don't have to move it again when the resources run out, as in kethane. And, it is more immersive, in that as KerbinDallas said the idea that a single base could use up all the resources in a couple tanks is 'ludicrous'.

However, maybe an art pass on the ORS overlay, if deciding to keep it?

I personally prefer ScanSat mapping, as I feel it is more immersive and I get a greater sense of accomplishment(!) in hunting out a good concentration. Stupid of me to feel that, perhaps haha.

One drawback on concentration base, is that it can hurt gameplay if a player is trying to simulate an 'economy', in hunting for rare elements/minerals to mine and cash it on. It removes the need to seek out and continually prospect different places, to track down a good load, and then mine it out for profit. But this is beyond the scope of this discussion, anyways. I think that is what ultimately Thurak's MoonMining Precious Metals was taking a crack at. Be cool to get the author of ORS to implement both concentration and limited based resources in his system.

What options are there for the ORS overlay that you, RoverDude, are considering anyways? Man, an ORS overlay toggle would be a great stop-gap fix. Too bad you said it would mess up things.

Actually, I do hear a lot about how unlimited resources hurt gameplay... but you still have to get there and back. I would say that yeah, if someone wanted to they could warp several days on the launchpad to get a few thousand funds... but the at that point just edit the config

An ORS toggle already exists on the part -no need to change that bit. I'll post some stuff later, but at the moment I am having some shader challeneges to deal with

Personally, I love the idea of SCANSat, but every time I've installed it I've ended up uninstalling it for various reasons. To me it feels bloated; too many types of scan data & scanners, user interface is too busy, and attempts to incorporate too many features. It also doesn't have the greatest track record in terms of timely updates, and (at least in the past) it has a non-trivial impact on performance.

"SCANSat Lite" would be perfect, with a single scanner that provides basic data for altimetry, biomes, and Karbonite, toggling between these 3 overlays on a simple user interface. But since I'm not aware of anyone working on a "SCANSat Lite," I would very much like for Karbonite to include basic built-in scanning & display functionality. Ideally this could be toggled on/off in the map view similar to Kethane.

Interesting, good feedback and good to know.

[KerbinDallas]

Ok and that's the bit I was looking for... it's the navigation aspect.

Always possible, just a matter of effort (hence the question). So to dig into both this question and the previous one... What is the benefit of viewing your overlay and PPM wrapped onto a sphere instead of on a projected planetary map? I have thoughts, but want to hear yours.

*snip

Yea definitely the navigation aspect, as bigbadben stated I also enjoy the aspect of scanning and searching for the best places as it adds a cool aspect to gameplay however navigating with SCANSat can be kinda difficult sometimes and it doesn't come close to mapmode. I'd maybe say using the features that the game already provides in that aspect and adding a Karbonite feature to it? Again just a suggestion but I think that's a good solution. Also if it gives a few extra fps then for me that's a big deal, I can't stand lag

I also gotta say that I was never massively keen on resource mods until I tried this and man, I've had so much fun with it so far

[RoverDude]

Yea definitely the navigation aspect, as bigbadben stated I also enjoy the aspect of scanning and searching for the best places as it adds a cool aspect to gameplay however navigating with SCANSat can be kinda difficult sometimes and it doesn't come close to mapmode. I'd maybe say using the features that the game already provides in that aspect and adding a Karbonite feature to it? Again just a suggestion but I think that's a good solution. Also if it gives a few extra fps then for me that's a big deal, I can't stand lag

I also gotta say that I was never massively keen on resource mods until I tried this and man, I've had so much fun with it so far

Aweesome, so here's a follow up.

How would you feel if, in map mode, you got the entire map at once (as that's how the ORS hotspot code works)? Does this make you sad? I say this because the two mods (Kethane and Karbonite) are so fundamentally different that trying to make one become the other is just asking to take on a giant pain ball.

[ExtraWaffle]

I finally built my space station around Jool with pretty much everything important from mod (Convertor, Karbonite tanks, etc.), but when I ran out of fuel, I tried to convert some Karbonite (I got something from low 145km orbit) to Liquid fuel and Oxidizer so I can finish my orbit as I wanted. When I pressed button on Convertor, nothing happened. There was still the same amount of Karbonite, Liquid fuel and oxidizer as I had before. It was like the Convertor isn't working but then I though if I should change in VAB before how are parts connected. I mean if I should have put normal tank on one end of convertor and Karbonite tank on the other side. Do I have to rebuild it correctly and fly again to Jool because of this or is this just a bug ?

BTW... Power generator isn't working. Do I have to put Karbonite tank next to it to make it work ?

Picture: http://qs.lc/9mop2

[Crater]

This is a tough one to call.

For usability, ease, convenience, I'd definitely love to have some sort of overlay that you could see layered onto the body you're orbiting. Scansat can very effectively help you determine which landing site you wish to select, but finding that point on the ball beneath you, especially if it is on the dark side, or with VisualEnhancement cloud layers, or even just "which of that chain of craters / peninsulae / islands was it again?"

On the flip side, rendering just the portions that you've scanned with scansat, overlaying the resource data you're interested in, building a HUGE texture in memory (there is a reason there are not many hexes on a Kethane overlay), and updating that every tick as new scan data comes in, while wrapping that onto the planet, well, that's going to eat both RAM and CPU cycles, and I have things I wanted to do with both of those.

What would people think about waypoints instead? If you could select a location in the scansat map view, and a waymarker was laid onto the planet at that point, so you could easily see it on the ground. I know it's possible already if you transpose the coodinates into MechJeb, for example, but a clean interface to drop BIG FRIENDLY LABELS onto the planet view might solve the navigation problems without being a massive coding effort, and be much nicer on resources (of the computer variety).

[Ringkeeper]

i like scansat, i like the resource overlay and the maps. The only problem i have is to translate the position of a deposit/anomaly/whatever from scansat to the mapview/planetview. The map is detailed but the mun/planetview is not that much.

I guess thats why people would like to have a overlay on the mapview. Makes things easier.