TT18-A Launch Stability Enhancer - default to first stage

[Targa]

Since the TT18-A Launch Stability Enhancer is only used on the launch pad, and attached to the ground, and must be in the first stage, why not make them so they automatically always go to the first (or last, depending on how you look at it) stage when you add them to a ship in the VAB?

[RocketPilot573]

That's... The best idea ever! Yea, 99% of the time those things should be in the first stage.

[M3tal_Warrior]

I disagree - some designs I use are too heavy to survive the physic engine switch on the launch pad. They're perfectly fine when gradually applying the forces of the universe, so I sometimes need two or more stages just to decouple all LSEs. An automatic initial drop to the bottom stage would be OK though.

[ferrer]

This is a small adjustment that would be greatly appreciated - too many times I've been on the launchpad and activated my first stage, only to find that I'm not going anywhere because my upper launch clamps haven't released. It would mean that making changes to the clamp arrangement wouldn't affect the staging (at least for the vast majority of times when they're all released simultaneously).

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Even real rockets start their engines and burn for a bit before releasing the launch clamps.

Most of my KSP designs follow the same philosophy, start engines, max throttle, then release clamps.

I typically place them in the second staging group so I'm going to have to disagree with your suggestion.

[Snowstorm]

1 minute ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Even real rockets start their engines and burn for a bit before releasing the launch clamps.

Most of my KSP designs follow the same philosophy, start engines, max throttle, then release clamps.

I typically place them in the second staging group so I'm going to have to disagree with your suggestion.

What he said.  I'm not saying no to this, but maybe add an option to toggle first and second stage?  Maybe when you right click on it in the VAB?

[Superfluous J]

I'm all for options, but whatever stage you prefer to release the clamps, the current setup never works.

Also, parachutes should always get their own stage, above everything else except other parachutes. Drogues and regular chutes can be separated, sure, but the game should never put a parachute and booster on the same stage by default.

And another also, it's a little sad that the OP is almost 2 years old yet applies perfectly today.

[ferrer]

10 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Even real rockets start their engines and burn for a bit before releasing the launch clamps.

Most of my KSP designs follow the same philosophy, start engines, max throttle, then release clamps.

I typically place them in the second staging group so I'm going to have to disagree with your suggestion.

Interesting, is that ever necessary in KSP or is it just a realism thing?

5 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I'm all for options, but whatever stage you prefer to release the clamps, the current setup never works.

Also, parachutes should always get their own stage, above everything else except other parachutes. Drogues and regular chutes can be separated, sure, but the game should never put a parachute and booster on the same stage by default.

And another also, it's a little sad that the OP is almost 2 years old yet applies perfectly today.

It's true - at least putting them all in one places makes things simpler.

Not so sure about the parachute bit - I tend to jettison my heat shield after opening the parachutes (not that it makes much difference either way).

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Just now, ferrer said:

Interesting, is that ever necessary in KSP or is it just a realism thing?

Well depending on the craft it may need that upward thrust to keep it from tipping over as soon as the launch clamps are released.

I mean, if I'm putting launch clamps on something in the first place it's because it doesn't stand up well on it's own.

So loading it on the pad, releasing the clamps, then lighting the engines would just result in it falling over and exploding spectacularly.

[Alshain]

I think the simplest solution is to ensure they always DEFAULT to the first stage when placed, but can be moved afterward.  They usually do for me, but occasionally they go up one stage for some reason.

[Superfluous J]

9 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I think the simplest solution is to ensure they always DEFAULT to the first stage when placed, but can be moved afterward.  They usually do for me, but occasionally they go up one stage for some reason.

I get the impression that the game puts stuff connected together (between decouplers) in the same stage by default, at least most of the time. That's why the parachute and booster on the first rocket you make in career is always set up wrong in staging.

[HebaruSan]

23 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Well depending on the craft it may need that upward thrust to keep it from tipping over as soon as the launch clamps are released.

I mean, if I'm putting launch clamps on something in the first place it's because it doesn't stand up well on it's own.

So loading it on the pad, releasing the clamps, then lighting the engines would just result in it falling over and exploding spectacularly.

Are you thinking the clamps would be in their own separate first stage, or grouped with whatever engines would otherwise be in the first stage? I was thinking the latter, and it sounds like you're objecting to the former.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

14 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Are you thinking the clamps would be in their own separate first stage, or grouped with whatever engines would otherwise be in the first stage? I was thinking the latter, and it sounds like you're objecting to the former.

Mainly, but having the engines/clamps in the same first stage could cause problems with larger, heavier, low TWR crafts, who may fall and strike the ground before achieving enough thrust.

Although I admit that would be a rare edge case.

But so long as I can manually change the staging, I guess I don't really care where the game defaults them to.

[Jarin]

21 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Even real rockets start their engines and burn for a bit before releasing the launch clamps.

Most of my KSP designs follow the same philosophy, start engines, max throttle, then release clamps.

I typically place them in the second staging group so I'm going to have to disagree with your suggestion.

Except that by default, they drop into the "0th" stage, disconnecting before any engines fire. That's not useful for ANYONE.

[HebaruSan]

I believe SmartStage will take care of some of this, in case anyone is interested in a relevant mod:

 

[Superfluous J]

6 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Mainly, but having the engines/clamps in the same first stage could cause problems with larger, heavier, low TWR crafts, who may fall and strike the ground before achieving enough thrust.

I have literally never had a rocket even pause on the launch pad before rising when I disable the clamps and trigger the engines at the same time. I understand that real rockets need it (and maybe those in some of the realistic mods out there) but in stock KSP I was under the very strong impression that in a single Unity frame you went from 0 to full thrust with no spooling up time.

Or half thrust if you forgot to throttle up.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

21 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Or half thrust if you forgot to throttle up.

This. 

[suicidejunkie]

I had a rocket pause on the pad just last night, but that was because I forgot to fill the mainsail tanks with LF, so it just made a lot of SRB smoke as the clamps released and I was able to recover it before the TWR rose.

 

I also once had a station launch that was squishy enough that I waited for the boosters to stop their vertical oscillations before releasing the upper launch clamps.  That took off like a half-inflated balloon, but is definitely a special case worth manually changing the staging after installing the clamps.

 

I often have engines and parachutes in the same stage, but that is a booster chute arm/deployment combined with an upper stage engine ignition.  I think the current system gets the parachutes good enough most of the time.  Maybe a special case of parachutes not being allowed in the initial stage, to account for the Flea+Capsule+Chute starter design before separators are a thing.

[Moesly_Armlis]

On 4/27/2016 at 3:54 PM, 5thHorseman said:

the game should never put a parachute and booster on the same stage by default

How else to teach all the newbs to check staging before launching.  The number of times I forgot to at least glance at the staging before launch is still increasing, but slower than when I first started.

Besides the rocket launch with parachute gag still makes me chuckle.

[tg626]

Some mods have slow spooling engines (kw rocketry option, mechjeb with smooth throttle option) so there are times where the game must follow reality engines on, then release.

I use mechjeb, and with engines off it often starts throwing pitch and yaw around.  I mentally count down:

10

9

8

7 - Guidance internal (mechjeb on)

6

5

4

3 - fire liquid engines 

2 

1

0 - fire srbs if any and clamps

 

From 7 to 3 mj is swinging pitch and yaw all over, between 3 and 0 they settle down to zero for liftoff.

Edited April 30, 2016 by tg626

[CaLVin-K]

On April 27, 2016 at 1:54 PM, 5thHorseman said:

I'm all for options, but whatever stage you prefer to release the clamps, the current setup never works.

Also, parachutes should always get their own stage, above everything else except other parachutes. Drogues and regular chutes can be separated, sure, but the game should never put a parachute and booster on the same stage by default.

And another also, it's a little sad that the OP is almost 2 years old yet applies perfectly today.

but then we would deprive everyone who learns this game after this is applied the learning moment where they launch their first rocket with an SRB and parachute in the same stage. I think everyone who has ever played KSP has done this at some point or another. 

[Jarin]

4 hours ago, CaLVin-K said:

but then we would deprive everyone who learns this game after this is applied the learning moment where they launch their first rocket with an SRB and parachute in the same stage. I think everyone who has ever played KSP has done this at some point or another. 

It's even mentioned in the new tutorials!