NASA: New "impossible" engine works, could change space travel forever

[flyin_ruski]

A real life Kracken Drive!

[Ralathon]

Not for a cubesat, heck they orbited a cellphone, why? because they can.

So I don't see a reason why they can't launch an improbable propulsion system on a cubesat.

Sure they could do it without problems. Its just a horrible waste of resources. Test the drive under vacuum conditions first and figure out what is causing the force. Then you can use that cubesat launch for more interresting things.

[RuBisCO]

Sure they could do it without problems. Its just a horrible waste of resources. Test the drive under vacuum conditions first and figure out what is causing the force. Then you can use that cubesat launch for more interresting things.

I'm all for testing it in vacuum conditions first, how else are they going to prepare one for a cubesat: just slap one together without even testing it beforehand? And again "waste" and "interesting" are relative terms, for exactly how purposeful and useful is a cellphone in orbit? I guess it is interesting in that it is funny-stupid. The premise that there are more interesting and useful things to to with a cubesat is false: at 1-3 kg each there is plenty of room for per launch for dozens of cubesats doing all sorts of "interesting" and "purposeful" things like having a working cellphone in orbit.

[vger]

Test the drive under vacuum conditions first and figure out what is causing the force.

Can someone explain why this wasn't done in a vacuum to begin with? That seems like a no-brainer.

[R0cketC0der]

And again "waste" and "interesting" are relative terms, for exactly how purposeful and useful is a cellphone in orbit?

PhoneSat's purpose is to test how well cheap electronics built for use on earth hold up in space. By using cheaper electronics in future satellites in exchange for reliability, millions of dollars could be saved long-term.

[Darston]

Can someone explain why this wasn't done in a vacuum to begin with? That seems like a no-brainer.

Why bother setting up a vacuum chamber when your not sure if the thing even does anything in the first place?

[vger]

Why bother setting up a vacuum chamber when your not sure if the thing even does anything in the first place?

That's almost like saying, "I'm not sure if this airfoil will fly, so let's test it in a vacuum chamber instead of a wind tunnel."

I can't see any reason to NOT get erroneous readings from testing the Em in normal atmospheric conditions.

[The Jedi Master]

And there we have it, the first steps to the Interstellar Age. I might live to see a man on another planet yet!

[CaptainArchmage]

Can someone explain why this wasn't done in a vacuum to begin with? That seems like a no-brainer.

They did test it in a vacuum chamber according to the paper: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052

However, they tested it at ambient pressure - without removing the air. Not sure why, it seems though it was a preliminary test. The system required manual control, and they want to upgrade that to an automatic one. My guess is vacuum testing is one of the next steps.

It may have been that the “null test device†was hermetically sealed, which could cause problems with testing it in a vacuum chamber, or modifying it as such.

They may have already made changes and tested the device. It seems to take an awfully long time for the results to come out - it has been almost a year since they did the tests.

Edit: Actually, the device could be useful at ambient atmospheric pressure, so there’s no reason not to run those tests as well.

Edited August 4, 2014 by CaptainArchmage

[CaptainArchmage]

A real life Kracken Drive!

(Sorry for the multiple posts)

The reason why this needs to be a little different from the Kraken drive in KSP is.......

To use the device properly, you need to quantifiably control this. Besides turning it on and off, the thrust needs to be controllable properly, so one could run multiple Quantum Vacuum thrusters not necessarily aligned with the center of mass.

My experience with a Kraken Drive in KSP featured an uncontrollable acceleration, which I was unable to stop, except for using timewarp, or SOI changes.

[Wanderfound]

Don't get too excited, folks: http://space.io9.com/a-new-thruster-pushes-against-virtual-particles-or-1615361369/1615513781/+rtgonzalez

[Hodo]

It is at least a break through.

Granted I have always called that drive the "Triphammer" drive after something from a GURPS game I used to play in my youth.

[Wanderfound]

I'd be putting my money on experimental error, actually. It's rather reminiscent of that FTL "discovery" from a few years ago; that one turned out to be a miscalibrated fibre optic lead.

(another GURPSist here, BTW; loves me a bit of Banestorm)

[crazyewok]

If it does work (be it Em fields, quantum effects or magic) then its going to make KSP a boring game.

1) Launch EM drive on rocket

2) Detach EM drive

3) have unlimited delta V.

4) Game over

[Nuke]

i wont be happy till its tested in a magnetically shielded vacuum chamber, or space.

[Javster]

They'll patch it in the next update

[nli2work]

If it does work (be it Em fields, quantum effects or magic) then its going to make KSP a boring game.

1) Launch EM drive on rocket

2) Detach EM drive

3) have unlimited delta V.

4) Game over

sure, if you don't mind doing 16hr ejection burns, at 4x physics warp, for a 0.5t probe.

[crazyewok]

Well the magic space fairy's have to take there time

[CaptainArchmage]

Don't get too excited, folks: http://space.io9.com/a-new-thruster-pushes-against-virtual-particles-or-1615361369/1615513781/+rtgonzalez

This article just screams “make it go awayâ€Â! The quantum virtual particle pairs are a reasonably well-understood phenomenon. Arguing about the naming of the drive is more of a technicality, too. It wouldn’t be surprising if it could be utilised to produce thrust.

It is at least a break through.

This is the point. If the device continues to show results, given that some people should understand the quantum vacuum reasonably well, it should be possible to either confirm how the device works with the existing theory, unless new physics is required. From an engineering perspective, if multiple devices can be shown to function safely, and in space, then it works.

It may be time for our education systems to consider teaching quantum field theory to more people. Which will be hard.

[vger]

They'll patch it in the next update

Don't give the Universe devs ideas. We don't need another incident like cold fusion, with the EmDrive being regarded as an exploit.

[R0cketC0der]

This is the point. If the device continues to show results, given that some people should understand the quantum vacuum reasonably well, it should be possible to either confirm how the device works with the existing theory, unless new physics is required. From an engineering perspective, if multiple devices can be shown to function safely, and in space, then it works.

The problem is that no matter how you put it, the theory is wrong. There are two options:

- The thrust were just inaccurate measurements, the engine wouldn't produce any thrust in space.

- The measurements were right and both tested engines produce thrust. In this case the theory is wrong because an engine which was built to not produce any thrust actually produced thrust. It could still be used, but we would need further understanding of it.

[jfull]

Honestly, if this thing IS interacting with virtual particles, it is probably doing so in the most roundabout and inefficient way possible. If they come up with a working theory that explains it, the engine will probably need a complete redesign.

[RuBisCO]

PhoneSat's purpose is to test how well cheap electronics built for use on earth hold up in space. By using cheaper electronics in future satellites in exchange for reliability, millions of dollars could be saved long-term.

And they needed the housing and screen for what reason? Technically cubesats already use OTS electronics anyways, so the purpose and reasoning is limited, gimmicky and even "wasteful"

The problem is that no matter how you put it, the theory is wrong. There are two options:

- The thrust were just inaccurate measurements, the engine wouldn't produce any thrust in space.

- The measurements were right and both tested engines produce thrust. In this case the theory is wrong because an engine which was built to not produce any thrust actually produced thrust. It could still be used, but we would need further understanding of it.

Or 2b) that was a lab error as well or 2c) a misinterpretation of the report its self, what was the thrust reported in negative control mode verse the experimental mode? In short there are many more explanations then just those two.

Look, I agree it is unlikely this engine is real but I see no reason why further testing should not be done in a vacuum and even in space. It needs to prove and validate (or disprove this) beyond all doubt, for something like this they are going to need spaceflight to "prove" it, for the evidence needs to be extraordinary, like a cubesat doing several kilometer a second velocity change and still thrusting in stellar space, then and only then will most actually believe it.

Edited August 4, 2014 by RuBisCO

[ZetaX]

So NASA should use several million dollars to "test" something very fishy which just behaved rather arbitrarily in the one test done¿

[Specialist290]

We seem to already have an outstanding thread on this topic, so perhaps it would be best to consolidate all discussion into one place. Please kindly redirect all further discussion of the Cannae Drive to this thread instead.

Everyone have a nice day