[1.x+] Community Resource Pack

[FreeThinker]

Also - we do not just have 'one shot' - this has always been an evolving process, we're just doing a fairly large change set right now. As noted, we can always add stuff post-launch.

Well there is going to be only one KSP 1.0 lauch. This effectively means all people savegames are going to be broken by all Stock/CRP changes anyway. The best time for change is durring a revolution, not afterwards when everyone tries to stabalize the status quo.

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I'm allowing some extra stuff in here as a courtesy, since normally the criteria are that stuff has to be used by multiple mods to even be on that list in the first place (hence why a decent chunk of my own resources are not there). but I'd rather not this become polluted with stuff in the planning phase, or a large swath of stuff only used by one mod.

True, the main reason we included Neon and Krypton at STP is for atmospheric definition.

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LqdAmmonia (currently 604 kg/m³, should be 702.1 kg/m³- the density at -50 C)

Implemented. The difference is significant enough and important enough to justify the change as it's the only real alternative for fantacy resource LiquidFuel which KSPI is going to remove as a Hydrogen resource at 1.0 (instead KSPI will assume LiquidFuel to be equal to Kerosine).

Edited March 16, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Orkeren]

Just a cosmetic comment: In the changelog for v3.2 the change date is off by a year (2014 instead of 2015)

[Northstar1989]

Hey, ummm, so I noticed that the density of LqdMethane got pushed back down from 448 kg/m³ (the density at -180 C) to 425.61 kg/m³ (the density at the boiling-point) *after* the previous value was listed as ratified...

I thought values were supposed to be locked-in after ratification? Did I miss something?

Obviously I have no authority to control LqdMethane, as it is listed as a RealFuels resource (despite Methane first seeing use in KSP-I long before RealFuels, with the KSP-I Meth/LOX chemical rocket engine and Methane and Meth/LOX Thermal Rocket fuel-modes, dating back to at least 0.22, it now sees some minor use in RealFuels+Stockalike as well thanks to the "SpaceY" mod that it provides Meth/LOX engine-configs for...), but I was rather happy to see it at a more practical density/temperature (as -180 C is a more practical temperature when you're storing it alongside LOX than must be at least -184 C to remain liquid, and would have to be around -198 C to obtain the density currently used for LOX in RealFuels or on the Saturn V/ Shuttle EFT in real life...) and disappointed to see it changed to a density corresponding to a less practical/realistic temperature...

So, the question remains- why was the density of LqdMethane changed *after* it was ratified at the 448 kg/m³ value?

Regards,

Northstar

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Also, what's with the 717 kg/m³ gaseous Methane resource? Is that for BioMass compatibility? Why is it listed under RealFuels? Because there's nothing real about that density of Methane as a gas- you simply cannot compress Methane to that density before it liquifies (and even then you would have to cool it until it solidified to have any chance of getting a density that high...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 18, 2015 by Northstar1989

[regex]

Hey, ummm, so I noticed that the density of LqdMethane got pushed back down from 448 kg/m³ (the density at -180 C) to 425.61 kg/m³ (the density at the boiling-point) *after* the previous value was listed as ratified...

I don't recall it being listed as ratified. After your recent post I noted that I hadn't changed it to match the liquid phase density at boiling point to match the value used by all other resources under Real Fuels (including LOX). Thanks for reminding me.

Also, what's with the 717 kg/m³ gaseous Methane resource?

Ah, damn, I used the wrong value, my bad. That was just changed. Edited March 19, 2015 by regex

[RoverDude]

@FreeThinker - need you to set those 'Complete' values to 'Yes' if you are done with them please.

UF4 should be off the list as it was replaced with EnrichedUranium. We'll sort DepletedFuel/DepletedUranium/Actinides at a later date once we have the rest of the doc done.

Any issues with the density/cost of Uraninite so I can ratify that one and close off the USI list?

Any issues with any of the RealFuels stuff (same reason)?

I need to know which KSPI resources need to be harvestable, and will need Regolith configs for them. If you need assistance making these, let me know.

Thanks

[Northstar1989]

@FreeThinker - need you to set those 'Complete' values to 'Yes' if you are done with them please.

He asked me to double-check the costs and densities one last time for him before he ratifies. I am currently in the process of doing that...

UF4 should be off the list as it was replaced with EnrichedUranium. We'll sort DepletedFuel/DepletedUranium/Actinides at a later date once we have the rest of the doc done.

Ummm, no it wasn't? For ISRU reasons (specifically, that UF₄ is made with Fluorine, whereas EnrichedUranium is just plain old Uranium) didn't we decide to leave it as it was?

Any issues with the density/cost of Uraninite so I can ratify that one and close off the USI list?

What chemical formula and isotope-mix does that represent again? How does it differ from UF₄ and Uranium Nitride?

I need to know which KSPI resources need to be harvestable, and will need Regolith configs for them. If you need assistance making these, let me know.

I can answer that one for you (FreeThinker can correct me if I missed one, of course). I take it you're drawing up Regolith configs for every CRP resource used by KSP-I that is harvestable?

The following CRP resources should be harvestable in KSP-Interstellar Extended. I have provided some abundance-data for reference, based on the Sol system- no idea if this will be useful for determining actual harvest-rates with Regolith like it is with ORS... (which allows us to code in atmospheric abundances as fractions...)

UF₄ (In randomly-distributed Uranium deposits. At least I *think* the deposits are random. Some planets/moons have more Uranium than others, but Eve/Kerbin/Duna should all have similar ratios of Uranium and Thorium, like Venus/Earth/Mars, and in KSP-I we assume that pretty much all the planets/moons have at least SOME Uranium and Thorium, although the concentrations and number of deposits may vary...)

ThF₄ (In randomly-distributed Thorium deposits. Thorium tends to be much more common overall than Uranium, at least in real life and KSP-I... Should be more abundant that Uranium through the solar system in KSP-I...)

Plutonium-238 (In randomly-distributed deposits. Should be considerably more rare than Uranium, but once again probably found on all planets/moons, even if there is only a single mineable deposit with a low concentration on a given planet/moon...)

Fluorine/LqdFluorine (Should be present at 0.004 ppm in atmosphere of Eve, like HF is on Venus. Rich in Eve's oceans, at least 5-10% abundance, because there are no oceans on Venus and we need more fluorine-sources... Will be used for ISRU production of UF₄ and ThF₄ in future releases of KSP-I Extended.)

NeonGas (Should be present at 0.1946% the abundance of Argon on Duna/Kerbin, like on Mars/Earth. So 18.18 ppm in the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth, 40 ppm on Duna. There should also be trace levels of Neon in the Munar/Ike regolith due to solar wind. 7 ppm on Eve/Venus. Should not be found on Laythe if it is like Titan. Based on the composition of Jupiter's upper atmosphere, .10% of the atmosphere in the accessible layers of Jool...)

ArgonGas (2% of the atmosphere of Duna, 0.934% of the atmosphere of Kerbin. 0.00435% of the atmosphere of Laythe- assuming its atmosphere is like Titan's. 2.5% of the atmosphere of Jool, based on the composition of Jupiter. 70 ppm on Eve/Venus.)

KryptonGas (1.14 ppm on Kerbin, like on Earth according to multiple sources. Present on Mars at same relative abundance compared to other noble gasses- so 2.14 ppm on Duna due to relatively higher noble-gas content on Mars/Duna. Based on Jupiter's atmospheric-composition, 2.7% of the atmosphere on Jool)

LqdHelium (Represents Helium-4 rather than Helium-3. 5.24 ppm in the atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth according to multiple sources. 1.1 ppm on Duna, like on Mars. 12 ppm on Eve/Venus. 13.6% of the *accessible* layers on Jool/Jupiter, though abundance in the lower layers is much lower... Present at up to 28 ppm in the soil/regolith of the Mun wherever Helium-3 is found, at the same relative concentration to other Helium-4/Helium-3 co-deposits... Ike has no real-life analog, so place it at up to 45 ppm in Ike soil/regolith, once again in co-deposits at a constant ratio to the Helium-3 concentration...)

Helium-3 (Can be bred from Tritium, but can also be mined on the Mun/Moon- at 50 parts per billion content in the most concentrated patches of regolith, so a *VERY* slow rate of surface-mining... Similar for Ike, which is basically a lot like a copy of our Moon around Duna, and has no real-life analog- but let's make it 80 ppb to make it a bit more rewarding... Present in 1:10000 ratio to Helium-4 in atmosphere of Jupiter, so at 13.6 parts per *million* total concentration in Jool's atmosphere... Would be much richer still in Saturn and Neptune-analogs, if either are ever added to KSP...)

LqdHydrogen (0.55 ppm on Kerbin/Earth- but should be much higher at upper edge of atmosphere. 86.4% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter. 2,000 ppm on Laythe/Titan.

LqdNitrogen (Nitrogen comprises 78.084% of the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth. 1.9% on Duna/Mars. 3.5% on Eve/Venus. 77.4% on Laythe- to allow a fraction for Oxygen, which is obviously not present on Titan- which is 98.4% Nitrogen... 0.6% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter after accounting for 3% in form of Ammonia... Eeloo is exceptional in that its real-life analog, Pluto, is cold enough to host deposits of Nitrogen-ice which should be a mineable ISRU resource as well.)

LqdCO₂ (0.04% of the atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth. 95.9% on Duna/Mars. 96.5% on Eve/Venus. 0.1% on Laythe to give a Kerbin-like mix, but higher due to high coincidence of both Oxygen and Methane...)

LqdMethane (0.000179% of the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth. 4.9% in Laythe/Titan lower atmosphere, but 1.4% in the upper atmosphere. .009% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter. Should be found as solid deposits in the soil of Eeloo, much like Pluto's Methane-ice.)

LqdAmmonia (Found as substantial ice-clouds on Jupiter as has too high a freezing-point to be present as a liquid or gas- but could simulate as 3% effective atmospheric abundance, comprising the vast majority of Jool/Jupiter's 3.6% Nitrogen elemental mass-fraction in the upper layers of its atmosphere. Richly present as Ammonia-ice and Ammonia-hydrates in soil of Titan, Ammonia-hydrates possibly comprising as much as 50% of entire planetary solid mass, with Ammonia comprising up to 8% of that mass, so should be richly present in oceans of Laythe at abundance of 5-8% by mass. Similarly, should be found as main component of oceans on Eve- as is most likely molecule to be found in liquid form at such high temperatures and pressures, so 70-80% total abundance in Eve's oceans.)

LqdOxygen (20.946% of atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth. 0.14% of atmosphere of Duna/Mars. 20% atmospheric composition on Laythe to reflect KSP facts, even though not present on Titan. Indirectly produced from Alumina in Mun/Ike regolith, but not directly extracted.)

Alumina (present in patches on Mun and Ike- where can be extracted and converted into Aluminum+LqdOxygen by a separate reaction...)

Lithium (can be extracted from oceans of Eve, Kerbin, and Laythe at low abundance of about 0.18 mg/L based on abundance in Earth's oceans. Should be present as mineable patches on Kerbin- like on Earth- where it can be used for in-field refueling. Present on Mars, but unknown if mineable deposits are present- so let's add a small number of mineable deposits at random locations on Duna... Useful in both bulk amounts that can be obtained through surface-mining for propulsion, and trace amounts easily obtained from seawater for breeding Tritium...)

Deuterium (Should be present at a 1 in 6400 ratio of the Hydrogen-mass of Kerbin's oceans- the equivalent of a 17.36 ppm concentration of a resource if it were found in isolation rather than as part of Heavy Water. I suggest a 18 ppm concentration in Laythe's oceans, and a 23 ppm concentration in Eve's oceans, to reflect high Ammonia-concentrations in these obviously-fictional oceans, and that Ammonia actually has a higher hydrogen-fraction than Water, and Deuterium can form NDH₂ as well as HDO...)

Water (Assumed to comprise 100% of Kerbin's oceans, 30% of Eve's oceans, and 92% of Laythe's oceans- the rest being Ammonia. Should be present in the atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth at 0.25% abundance by mass, in the atmosphere of Jool/Jupiter at unknown concentrations- very low in the upper atmosphere but rapidly increasing with depth, and in the atmosphere of Laythe- which we can balance at 0.20% to make it relatively Kerbin-like... Water is also present as ICE in shaded crates near the poles of Moho/Mercury, the Mun/Moon, and probably Ike as well- which has no real analogs but has a topography most similar to the Moon. It also should unquestionably be present over the entire surface of Vall- which KSP-I assumes to be an iceball moon much like Europa, and in extremely common deposits on Eeloo and Dres covering perhaps half to a third of their surface- as their closest real life analogs Pluto and Ceres are both thought to be rocky iceballs comprised of 30-70% water-ice by mass...)

I hope all this was of help. I am sure FreeThinker will be more than happy to verify my list and my suggested abundances if you have any doubts about my qualifications to draw up this list for him (I am one of the co-developers on KSP-I Extended, but FreeThinker is the lead developer...) and I will make sure he know to swing by here to leave a comment on it.

EDIT: Already realized one I forgot! Water! It should be present on Kerbin (obviously) in both the atmosphere and oceans (which can be assumed to be effectively 100% water), on Duna (in mineable deposits in the soil), in craters near the poles of the Mun and possibly Ike (which is more similar to the Moon/Mun than any real celestial body), as approximately 30% of the volume of Eve's oceans and 92% of the volume of Laythe's oceans (the rest being Ammonia for both Eve and Laythe), pretty much everywhere on the surface of Vall- which is an iceball moon, and near the poles of Moho (yes, you read that right- Moho! In real life Mercury has confirmed ice-deposits in permanently-shaded parts of its poles much like the Moon...) Finally, Minmus is assumed to be composed of some sort of water-ice mixed with salt or dirt in KSP-Interstellar: and in current versions of KSP-Interstellar the entire flats are assumed to be basically frozen lakebeds with low concentrations of Water that can be harvested from them...

I also forgot completely about Eeloo and Dres when making this list- sad, sad little rocky planets... Or not so sad, actually! Eeloo, as a Pluto-analog, should be pretty much MADE out of ice. And not just water-ice either. Also nitrogen-ice and methane-ice, due to the EXTREMELY cold temperatures. Which means, there should be mineable surface-deposits of Water, LqdNitrogen, AND LqdMethane pretty much everywhere on Eeloo. As for Dres, it's a Ceres-analog, and we don't know much about Ceres yet, but we do know it's a rocky-iceball with likely more water than all of Earth. That is, it contains more rock than ice, but it does contain substantial amounts of water-ice (which in fact is thought to permeate all the way through the core), which is of course another source of WATER!

EDIT #2: Fission fuels! I probably ought to provide a bit more data on how abundant other planets should be besides Eve/Kerbin/Duna. For the meantime, I would assume that it is pretty much equally common on the other bodies until I can get more accurate data. I do know that it is much easier to get at on planetoids that never fully differentiated/stratified, for instance, than it is on Venus/Earth/Mars, and that planets/moons with no tectonic activity (currently pretty much everywhere besides Kerbin, possibly Moho- from solar tidal effects, and maybe Laythe, Vall, or Tylo from tidal-effects with Jool) are much harder to mine for fissiles than those that have it... Also, I would assume that certain planetary systems were endowed with more fissile materials than others- although all ended up with at least SOME...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 19, 2015 by Northstar1989

[billkerbinsky]

Plutonium-238 (In randomly-distributed deposits. Should be considerably more rare than Uranium...)

I'd say.

Pu-238 is an ideal RTG fuel, which means that (in our universe, at least) it has a modest half-life (about 87 earth years, or about 300 Kerbin years) which means that would all have decayed on geologic time scales without some process to continuously produce more.

I'd expect the only way to accumulate meaningful quantities of RTG fuel is via reprocessing of used reactor fuel. There are a bunch of ways to make it; neutron irradiation of Np-237 requires two trips through a reactor (one to make the neptunium, one to turn purified neptunium into a mix of neptunium and Pu238) with chemical separation after each trip.

Thorium reactors reportedly produce it in modest but meaningful quantities (wikipedia says around 15kg per GWe-year).

[RoverDude]

Actually... UF4 WAS off the list per FreeThinker's prior post (scroll earlier up on the post). We had agreed on EnrichedUranium for the standard on uranium-based nuclar fuels.

I will repeat my earlier position that if this keeps devolving into 'everyone else change but don't change KSPI' then we can go our separate ways, because it becomes a waste of time.

Also as noted, we already have Uraninite for harvesting uranium. And PU-238 does not occur naturally so having it as a harvestable resource does not make sense.

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I'd say.

Pu-238 is an ideal RTG fuel, which means that (in our universe, at least) it has a modest half-life (about 87 earth years, or about 300 Kerbin years) which means that would all have decayed on geologic time scales without some process to continuously produce more.

I'd expect the only way to accumulate meaningful quantities of RTG fuel is via reprocessing of used reactor fuel. There are a bunch of ways to make it; neutron irradiation of Np-237 requires two trips through a reactor (one to make the neptunium, one to turn purified neptunium into a mix of neptunium and Pu238) with chemical separation after each trip.

Thorium reactors reportedly produce it in modest but meaningful quantities (wikipedia says around 15kg per GWe-year).

Correct, generally how we'd see PU-238 pop up is as something we can get from reprocesses reactor waste.

[FreeThinker]

The following CRP resources should be harvestable in KSP-Interstellar Extended. I have provided some abundance-data for reference, based on the Sol system- no idea if this will be useful for determining actual harvest-rates with Regolith like it is with ORS... (which allows us to code in atmospheric abundances as fractions...)

UF₄ (In randomly-distributed Uranium deposits. At least I *think* the deposits are random. Some planets/moons have more Uranium than others, but Eve/Kerbin/Duna should all have similar ratios of Uranium and Thorium, like Venus/Earth/Mars, and in KSP-I we assume that pretty much all the planets/moons have at least SOME Uranium and Thorium, although the concentrations and number of deposits may vary...)

ThF₄ (In randomly-distributed Thorium deposits. Thorium tends to be much more common overall than Uranium, at least in real life and KSP-I... Should be more abundant that Uranium through the solar system in KSP-I...)

Plutonium-238 (In randomly-distributed deposits. Should be considerably more rare than Uranium, but once again probably found on all planets/moons, even if there is only a single mineable deposit with a low concentration on a given planet/moon...)

Fluorine/LqdFluorine (Should be present at 0.004 ppm in atmosphere of Eve, like HF is on Venus. Rich in Eve's oceans, at least 5-10% abundance, because there are no oceans on Venus and we need more fluorine-sources... Will be used for ISRU production of UF₄ and ThF₄ in future releases of KSP-I Extended.)

NeonGas (Should be present at 0.1946% the abundance of Argon on Duna/Kerbin, like on Mars/Earth. So 18.18 ppm in the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth, 40 ppm on Duna. There should also be trace levels of Neon in the Munar/Ike regolith due to solar wind. 7 ppm on Eve/Venus. Should not be found on Laythe if it is like Titan. Based on the composition of Jupiter's upper atmosphere, .10% of the atmosphere in the accessible layers of Jool...)

ArgonGas (2% of the atmosphere of Duna, 0.934% of the atmosphere of Kerbin. 0.00435% of the atmosphere of Laythe- assuming its atmosphere is like Titan's. 2.5% of the atmosphere of Jool, based on the composition of Jupiter. 70 ppm on Eve/Venus.)

KryptonGas (1.14 ppm on Kerbin, like on Earth according to multiple sources. Present on Mars at same relative abundance compared to other noble gasses- so 2.14 ppm on Duna due to relatively higher noble-gas content on Mars/Duna. Based on Jupiter's atmospheric-composition, 2.7% of the atmosphere on Jool)

LqdHelium (Represents Helium-4 rather than Helium-3. 5.24 ppm in the atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth according to multiple sources. 1.1 ppm on Duna, like on Mars. 12 ppm on Eve/Venus. 13.6% of the *accessible* layers on Jool/Jupiter, though abundance in the lower layers is much lower... Present at up to 28 ppm in the soil/regolith of the Mun wherever Helium-3 is found, at the same relative concentration to other Helium-4/Helium-3 co-deposits... Ike has no real-life analog, so place it at up to 45 ppm in Ike soil/regolith, once again in co-deposits at a constant ratio to the Helium-3 concentration...)

Helium-3 (Can be bred from Tritium, but can also be mined on the Mun/Moon- at 50 parts per billion content in the most concentrated patches of regolith, so a *VERY* slow rate of surface-mining... Similar for Ike, which is basically a lot like a copy of our Moon around Duna, and has no real-life analog- but let's make it 80 ppb to make it a bit more rewarding... Present in 1:10000 ratio to Helium-4 in atmosphere of Jupiter, so at 13.6 parts per *million* total concentration in Jool's atmosphere... Would be much richer still in Saturn and Neptune-analogs, if either are ever added to KSP...)

LqdHydrogen (0.55 ppm on Kerbin/Earth- but should be much higher at upper edge of atmosphere. 86.4% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter. 2,000 ppm on Laythe/Titan.

LqdNitrogen (Nitrogen comprises 78.084% of the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth. 1.9% on Duna/Mars. 3.5% on Eve/Venus. 77.4% on Laythe- to allow a fraction for Oxygen, which is obviously not present on Titan- which is 98.4% Nitrogen... 0.6% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter after accounting for 3% in form of Ammonia...)

LqdCO₂ (0.04% of the atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth. 95.9% on Duna/Mars. 96.5% on Eve/Venus. 0.1% on Laythe to give a Kerbin-like mix, but higher due to high coincidence of both Oxygen and Methane...)

LqdMethane (0.000179% of the atmosphere on Kerbin/Earth. 4.9% in Laythe/Titan lower atmosphere, but 1.4% in the upper atmosphere. .009% of the atmosphere on Jool/Jupiter.)

LqdAmmonia (Found as substantial ice-clouds on Jupiter as has too high a freezing-point to be present as a liquid or gas- but could simulate as 3% effective atmospheric abundance, comprising the vast majority of Jool/Jupiter's 3.6% Nitrogen elemental mass-fraction in the upper layers of its atmosphere. Richly present as Ammonia-ice and Ammonia-hydrates in soil of Titan, Ammonia-hydrates possibly comprising as much as 50% of entire planetary solid mass, with Ammonia comprising up to 8% of that mass, so should be richly present in oceans of Laythe at abundance of 5-8% by mass. Similarly, should be found as main component of oceans on Eve- as is most likely molecule to be found in liquid form at such high temperatures and pressures, so 70-80% total abundance in Eve's oceans.)

LqdOxygen (20.946% of atmosphere of Kerbin/Earth. 0.14% of atmosphere of Duna/Mars. 20% atmospheric composition on Laythe to reflect KSP facts, even though not present on Titan. Indirectly produced from Alumina in Mun/Ike regolith, but not directly extracted.)

Alumina (present in patches on Mun and Ike- where can be extracted and converted into Aluminum+LqdOxygen by a separate reaction...)

Lithium (can be extracted from oceans of Eve, Kerbin, and Laythe at low abundance of about 0.18 mg/L based on abundance in Earth's oceans. Should be present as mineable patches on Kerbin- like on Earth- where it can be used for in-field refueling. Present on Mars, but unknown if mineable deposits are present- so let's add a small number of mineable deposits at random locations on Duna... Useful in both bulk amounts that can be obtained through surface-mining for propulsion, and trace amounts easily obtained from seawater for breeding Tritium...)

Deuterium (Should be present at a 1 in 6400 ratio of the Hydrogen-mass of Kerbin's oceans- the equivalent of a 17.36 ppm concentration of a resource if it were found in isolation rather than as part of Heavy Water. I suggest a 18 ppm concentration in Laythe's oceans, and a 23 ppm concentration in Eve's oceans, to reflect high Ammonia-concentrations in these obviously-fictional oceans, and that Ammonia actually has a higher hydrogen-fraction than Water, and Deuterium can form NDH₂ as well as HDO...)

I hope all this was of help. I am sure FreeThinker will be more than happy to verify my list and my suggested abundances if you have any doubts about my qualifications to draw up this list for him (I am one of the co-developers on KSP-I Extended, but FreeThinker is the lead developer...) and I will make sure he know to swing by here to leave a comment on it.

EDIT: Already realized one I forgot! Water! It should be present on Kerbin (obviously) in both the atmosphere and oceans (which can be assumed to be effectively 100% water), on Duna (in mineable deposits in the soil), in craters near the poles of the Mun and possibly Ike (which is more similar to the Moon/Mun than any real celestial body), as approximately 30% of the volume of Eve's oceans and 92% of the volume of Laythe's oceans (the rest being Ammonia for both Eve and Laythe), pretty much everywhere on the surface of Vall- which is an iceball moon, and near the poles of Moho (yes, you read that right- Moho! In real life Mercury has confirmed ice-deposits in permanently-shaded parts of its poles much like the Moon...) Finally, Minmus is assumed to be composed of some sort of water-ice mixed with salt or dirt in KSP-Interstellar: and in current versions of KSP-Interstellar the entire flats are assumed to be basically frozen lakebeds with low concentrations of Water that can be harvested from them...

I also forgot completely about Eeloo and Dres when making this list- sad, sad little rocky planets... Or not so sad, actually! Eeloo, as a Pluto-analog, should be pretty much MADE out of ice. And not just water-ice either. Also nitrogen-ice and methane-ice, due to the EXTREMELY cold temperatures. Which means, there should be mineable surface-deposits of Water, LqdNitrogen, AND LqdMethane pretty much everywhere on Eeloo. As for Dres, it's a Ceres-analog, and we don't know much about Ceres yet, but we do know it's a rocky-iceball with likely more water than all of Earth. That is, it contains more rock than ice, but it does contain substantial amounts of water-ice (which in fact is thought to permeate all the way through the core), which is of course another source of WATER!

EDIT #2: Fission fuels! I probably ought to provide a bit more data on how abundant other planets should be besides Eve/Kerbin/Duna. For the meantime, I would assume that it is pretty much equally common on the other bodies until I can get more accurate data. I do know that it is much easier to get at on planetoids that never fully differentiated/stratified, for instance, than it is on Venus/Earth/Mars, and that planets/moons with no tectonic activity (currently pretty much everywhere besides Kerbin, possibly Moho- from solar tidal effects, and maybe Laythe, Vall, or Tylo from tidal-effects with Jool) are much harder to mine for fissiles than those that have it... Also, I would assume that certain planetary systems were endowed with more fissile materials than others- although all ended up with at least SOME...

Regards,

Northstar

Except from the Nuclear resource, I agree with Northstar idea on the avaialbilty of natrually occuring resource in the atmosphere/oceans/surface

[Northstar1989]

I'd say.

Pu-238 is an ideal RTG fuel, which means that (in our universe, at least) it has a modest half-life (about 87 earth years, or about 300 Kerbin years) which means that would all have decayed on geologic time scales without some process to continuously produce more.

I'd expect the only way to accumulate meaningful quantities of RTG fuel is via reprocessing of used reactor fuel. There are a bunch of ways to make it; neutron irradiation of Np-237 requires two trips through a reactor (one to make the neptunium, one to turn purified neptunium into a mix of neptunium and Pu238) with chemical separation after each trip.

Thorium reactors reportedly produce it in modest but meaningful quantities (wikipedia says around 15kg per GWe-year).

Indeed. In my rush to get to the resources that actually currently have some use in KSP-I (Plutonium is a resource not yet actually used by any part in KSP-Interstellar) it seems I did not do this resource justice with my research (the entire list has taken me over 5 hours to compile by this point, so you can't blame me for making a few errors in the research here and there... I basically skimmed over the fissile fuels to get to the other stuff...)

Regards,

Northstar

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Except from the Nuclear resource, I agree with Northstar idea on the avaialbilty of natrually occuring resource in the atmosphere/oceans/surface

Awesome! Glad to have your support! Note that I went back and edited in an entry for Water (along with all its known locations- aside from asteroids, which I don't touch on at all as KSP-I has never previously had an asteroid-mining feature...), and the bits about Nitrogen and Methane-ice on Eeloo/Pluto since you quoted my message...

Now, I'll just have to go back and brush up on my research on nuclear fuels a little more...

What parts need correction besides the Plu-238 bit and the replacing of UF₄ bits I messed up before? I assume you still want to keep ThF₄ since it's a unique fuel to KSP-Interstellar and has both different performance-characteristics and abundances than Uranium?

Regards,

Northstar

[RoverDude]

Here's a link to the Regolith documentation - resource config info is first.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1apMiDJDYtfGi_wznWejP5MmBjK7RxPZnRwFPCsATrIY/edit?usp=sharing

Note that unlike ORS, Regolith will view atmospheric abundance as a relative weight, so you can end up with over 100% pretty easily.

Also surface resources are additive, so if it sees two definitions for the same thing, it takes the most optimistic combination. This prevents people locking out resources of other mods.

Uraninite is based on Uraninite. It has a density of about 6K-10K kg/m3.

(edit)

Unless something is unique to a stock planet, you should generally go with a global fallback config. This is what lets CRP/Regolith support alternate planet packs. General procedure is to have some intelligent planetary defaults (this is calculated per biome), and biome/planetary overrides where you want to increase or guarantee abundance.

Edited March 19, 2015 by RoverDude

[Brotoro]

... ArgonGas ... 2.5% of the atmosphere of Jool, based on the composition of Jupiter...

Hi there. I happened to wander into this thread and glanced through that list of chemical abundances. I don't think there's any way Jupiter's atmospheric abundance of Argon is 2.5%.

[futrtrubl]

Hi there. I happened to wander into this thread and glanced through that list of chemical abundances. I don't think there's any way Jupiter's atmospheric abundance of Argon is 2.5%.

Yes, he has done that for all the Joolian gases. He has used the second column of the table in the link he posted with is it's relative abundance compared to the Sun, not it's abundance which is the first column times the second column. Also that only gives the relative abundance by number of atoms not mass, also it is relative to hydrogen atoms not molecular hydrogen.

Edit:

Correcting for that we have mass ratios from that table of

Element	mass ratio percent
He/H	31.473
Ne/H	0.0246
Ar/H	0.0362
Kr/H	3.64279E-05
Xe/H	5.73518E-06
C/H	1.25976
N/H	0.56448
O/H	0.0449328
P/H	0.000948166
S/H	0.1296

Now that's the ratio with hydrogen, so if you set hydrogen to 100 those would be the values you would use in regolith.

Edited March 21, 2015 by futrtrubl

[Northstar1989]

The abundance ratios were already relative to Hydrogen- just look at the leftmost column of the table. They're a little off as I use them because Hydrogen doesn't comprise 100% of Jupiter (or the Sun's) mass and some of it is tied up in Hydrogen-compounds like Ammonia and Hydrogen Sulfide, but molecular Hydrogen does comprise the vast majority of Jupiter's atmosphere so they're not THAT far off...

They're not mass-ratios, they're elemental abundance ratios. Literally the ratios of the number of atoms of each.

Argon actually remains almost entirely uncreacted as monoatomic gas, so its abundance by volume should actually be much higher than in that table. Once again, remember this is based on a pretty wide range of altitudes though. Jupiter actually has a significant amount of water, for instance, but almost none of it reaches the upper atmosphere thanks to the tropopause on Jupiter...

Tthe atmosphere of Jupiter varies greatly by altitude. Some of these ratios come from atmospheric pressures as high as 19 barr (19 times Earth sea level!), one of the ratios for Oxygen for instance, whereas many sources arbitrarily define Jupiter's atmosphere as starting at 1 atm of pressure... Argon is likely much more abundant lower in Jupiter's atmosphere rather than higher up...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 22, 2015 by Northstar1989

[FreeThinker]

The abundance ratios were already relative to Hydrogen- just look at the leftmost column of the table. They're a little off as I use them because Hydrogen doesn't comprise 100% of Jupiter (or the Sun's) mass and some of it is tied up in Hydrogen-compounds like Ammonia and Hydrogen Sulfide, but molecular Hydrogen does comprise the vast majority of Jupiter's atmosphere so they're not THAT far off...

They're not mass-ratios, they're elemental abundance ratios. Literally the ratios of the number of atoms of each.

Argon actually remains almost entirely uncreacted as monoatomic gas, so its abundance by volume should actually be much higher than in that table. Once again, remember this is based on a pretty wide range of altitudes though. Jupiter actually has a significant amount of water, for instance, but almost none of it reaches the upper atmosphere thanks to the tropopause on Jupiter...

Tthe atmosphere of Jupiter varies greatly by altitude. Some of these ratios come from atmospheric pressures as high as 19 barr (19 times Earth sea level!), one of the ratios for Oxygen for instance, whereas many sources arbitrarily define Jupiter's atmosphere as starting at 1 atm of pressure... Argon is likely much more abundant lower in Jupiter's atmosphere rather than higher up...

I wonder if there is any model we can use to predict the gas composition of a gases given then relative altitude which we can use for our atmospheric scoops inside or just above the atmosphere

[Northstar1989]

Yes, he has done that for all the Joolian gases. He has used the second column of the table in the link he posted with is it's relative abundance compared to the Sun, not it's abundance which is the first column times the second column. Also that only gives the relative abundance by number of atoms not mass, also it is relative to hydrogen atoms not molecular hydrogen.

Edit:

Correcting for that we have mass ratios from that table of

If we assume that the ratios are indeed relative to the Sun, we got the follow abundances as a first pass:

[B]Elemental[/B] volume-abundance by percent
He/H	15.7%
Ne/H	0.00246%
Ar/H	0.00181%
Kr/H	8.694 E -7 %
Xe/H	8.736 E -8 %
C/H	0.105%
N/H	 0.04% (8 barr)
O/H	 0.049% (19 barr, upper limit)
P/H	3.06 E -5 %
S/H	 0.004%

This is only a first pass. It doesn't account for Hydrogen-compounds containing more than two Hydrogen atoms, such as Ammonia, Methane, etc. Nor that Hydrogen does not comprise 100% of Jupiter or the Sun...

Note that all the values are obtained by multiplying the values in the first and second columns, and then multiplying by 2 for all noble gasses (since Hydrogen is a diatomic molecule, and all noble gasses are monoatomic).

Once again, the ratios given were not mass ratios, they were raw elemental abundances, and they were not percentages- they were raw ratios (so a value of 0.5 is 50%, for instance) so the table you posted is not at all accurate.

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Also, my internet was down for a couple days, and I was very busy before that, but the KSP-I resource costs look good with two major exceptions.

Lithium and LqdAmmonia costs are currently off.

As I understand it, currently 1 Fund = $1000 1965 dollars?

Currently, Lithium trades for $5000-7000 per ton (no clarification if those were metric or imperial tons either...) The prices are going up, but not THAT sharply that it should cost $224.8 million per metric ton... (the current CRP cost- at 120 Funds/unit and 1872.7 units/ton)

Using this inflation calculator, $6K/ton in 2014 dollars (when that price was listed) equates to about $800/ton in 1965 dollars, or about 0.8 Funds/ton in KSP- which equates to 0.0004272 Funds/unit.

Ammonia is even cheaper- current prices in Central Illinois (where I reside- actually this report comes from where I went to grad school) are $717 per ton of Anhydrous Ammonia (the form of Ammonia we want the price of here). It can be assumed it would be similarly cheap anywhere there was a large demand for it (like for a space program using it for Thermal Rocket launch-stages) due to economies of scale...

Currently in CRP, LqdAmmonia is priced at $600 per liter in 1965 dollars (0.6 Funds/unit)- which equates to $4451/liter and $6.34 million/ton in 2015 dollars!

A correct price would be about $100/ton in 1965 dollars ($717/ton in 2015 dollars --> $96.64/ton in 1965 dollars). So, 0.09664 Funds/ton- or 0.00006785 Funds/unit in KSP. For reference, LqdNitrogen is currently priced at 0.000824 Funds/unit.

Corrections to both these prices are sorely needed, as both are currently off by more than 4 orders of magnitude...

KSP-I Extended generally aims for realistic pricing, and it shares LqdAmmonia with RealFuels, which is even more focused on having realistic pricing.

EDIT: Math-fail: fixed the numbers...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 22, 2015 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Wait, add one more important resource-cost to the list that's way off...

ArgonGas. (the costs of Neon and Krypton are also way off- but these aren't used yet...)

Argon currently sells for $5000/ton ($0.5/ 100 grams pure) in its gaseous form:

http://www.chemicool.com/elements/argon.html

Right now, we have it priced at 0.85 Funds/unit in the CRP working document ($477.5 million 1965 US dollars/ton at 561798 units/ton!)

An accurate price would be $5000 2015 dollars per ton ($673.92 1965 USD/ton), which equates to 0.00000120227 Funds/unit in KSP (at 560538 units/ton).

ArgonGas is a resource currently curated by NearFuture, but shared by KSP-Interstellar.

@Nertea

Is there any way we can get this cost fixed?

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 22, 2015 by Northstar1989

[Yemo]

While not technically part of the community resource pack, this thread seems to be a good fit for standardizing ec.

As ec is the resource most used by the community and the one most desperately needing standardization among mods.

Currently there are a plethora of ec definitions floating around, leading to one perpetuum mobile after the other (eg water splitter/electrolysis from tac life support and alkaline fuel cell from universal storage, together they "produce" massive amounts of ec out of thin air).

Universal Storage seems to use 1ec = 33J,

TAC life support seems to use 1ec = 1kJ,

I do not know about KSPI ec assumption,

Stock battery specific energy seems to indicate something around 1ec = 18kJ - 47kJ,

I do not know what stock solar panels seem to indicate,

And then there are the alternators on the engines

@Freethinker and Northstar1989, what are your assumptions regarding ec?

@RoverDude, you seem to have the best overview (considering the community resource pack and your involvement) and a direct link to Squad, what ec definition do you follow?

Thank you very much for your input!

[FreeThinker]

I do not know about KSPI ec assumption,

Stock battery specific energy seems to indicate something around 1ec = 18kJ - 47kJ,

I do not know what stock solar panels seem to indicate,

And then there are the alternators on the engines

@Freethinker and Northstar1989, what are your assumptions regarding ec?

KSPI is very clear about this: 1 MegaWatt = 1 MegaJoule = 1000 KiloJoule = 1000 ElectricCharge in other words 1 Ec = 1 KiloJoule (similar to TAC)

- - - Updated - - -

KSP-I Extended generally aims for realistic pricing, and it shares LqdAmmonia with RealFuels, which is even more focused on having realistic pricing.

I agree, I adjusted the costs

Edited March 22, 2015 by FreeThinker

[regex]

.....

Edited March 22, 2015 by regex

[RoverDude]

Ok, it's time to wrap this up.

1. FreeThinker - per our prior discussions, UF4 was to be removed from the list. So I have removed it from the list.

2. I have provided info on how to set up a Regolith harvesting config. On a philosophical note, this is KSP not Earth. So splitting hairs over what is in a Mars or Jupiter atmosphere is pretty irrelevant since you can override all of these for something like RSS.

But in any case, if you wish something to be harvestable for KSPI, please provide the Regolith config for review. These can also be added after the fact, so no rush. And we will happily seal up the 1.0 version without them. You can just include them with KSPI, since Regolith is going to gather them all up anyway and automatically merge everything (i.e. it is a LOT more tolerant of multi-mod than ORS ever was).

Sort it out. Then propose it once we get this first cut done. And if it provides value, we can roll it in.

3. We cannot keep flagging stuff as 'YES' in the document but then come back here to work through it. As noted previously, the costs, densities, etc. are up to the curating mod. If there's an issue, take it to the relevant thread. NorthStar - there's no point in using this thread for debating costs on stuff that KSPI curates - sort that with FreeThinker.

4. If Nertea changes the cost of ArgonGas, awesome. If not, also awesome. It will go to 1.0 with whatever he puts in there.

5. FreeThinker - I need your resource config file ASAP.

6. Anything not sorted is going to be pulled out and not considered part of CRP until such time as I have configs. These will at this juncture be KSPI and NFT. Since I know Nertea is on vacation, I will be using existing CRP values for him unless something else is provided. Since the old KSPI values are KSPI-L not KSPI-E, I'll need FreeThinker's numbers, otherwise (as noted) they will be dropped until I have config files.

7. Once this is done, each new proposal will be handled case by case like it always has been done, and negotiated between the folks who use that resource and the folks who curate it. Normally this is an extremely brief process. My concern is that the amount of back and forth on downright trivial stuff is getting more than a bit nuts, and that is absolutely going to cease now.

8. Yemo - this is not the place for EC, AKA one of the many Viet Nams of KSP Modding. But that being said, the most commonly accepted definition is that 1EC/Sec = 1KW. We use the KW definition since EC is almost always discussed in terms of consumption over time, not storage. It's an important distinction given how totally out of whack the mechanics of storage are in stock. And yes, as a result, half of the stock stuff is off. But it's a useful benchmark.

[Yemo]

Thank you very much, Freethinker and RoverDude,

I will work with the 1ec/s = 1kW = 1kJ/s and try to adjust other components around that (which will probably be a long and painful process).

[RoverDude]

Also. I am going to be fairly picky on what we admit for CRP harvestable resources, in favor of either multi-use or more generic ones, mostly because of how nicely Regolith makes this moddable and allows folks to drop in their edge cases, and to prevent a massive overflow of stuff for scanners, etc. since we have to take that into consideration for things like SCANSat, etc. - also there are none of the over-stomp issues you have with resource definitions, or the horrible lag we had with duplicate keys with ORS.

[Nertea]

I'm back now and will have a look at my costs in a bit (as per the method I described a few pages ago).