[1.4.1] Kerbal Construction Time 1.4.0.69 (2018-03-24) - Unrapid Planned Assembly

[HarlyKin]

Tried UpFree preset. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if it isn't working correctly. Starts with a 0.5 build rate in VAB and SPH and 2.25 sci/day in development. I upgraded my VAB, ast comp, miss control, tracking station and launch pad. I now have 0.5 build rate and 2.25 sci/day.

I thought that as I upgraded my KSC that build rate and research would change based on the level of upgrades.

[magico13]

Tried UpFree preset. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if it isn't working correctly. Starts with a 0.5 build rate in VAB and SPH and 2.25 sci/day in development. I upgraded my VAB, ast comp, miss control, tracking station and launch pad. I now have 0.5 build rate and 2.25 sci/day.

I thought that as I upgraded my KSC that build rate and research would change based on the level of upgrades.

UpFree is based on an old config that I never played around with much and might not be working properly with the recent changes. I'll run some tests with it tonight to make sure it's working correctly. Do note that KCT requires time for KSC upgrades, so until those are finished the rates won't be any different.

Reading through the config and mentally inserting the right values for variables, it should look something like this:

Build Rates:

R&D level 1, VAB level 1: 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

R&D level 1, VAB level 2: 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

R&D level 1, VAB level 3: 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

R&D level 2, VAB level 1: 1 rate at 1.0 BP/s

R&D level 2, VAB level 2: 1 rate at 1.0 BP/s, 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

R&D level 2, VAB level 3: 1 rate at 1.0 BP/s, 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

R&D level 3, VAB level 1: 1 rate at 1.5 BP/s

R&D level 3, VAB level 2: 1 rate at 1.5 BP/s, 1 rate at 1.0 BP/s

R&D level 3, VAB level 3: 1 rate at 1.5 BP/s, 1 rate at 1.0 BP/s, 1 rate at 0.5 BP/s

As a table:

[table=width: 500, class: grid]

[tr]

[td][/td]

[td]VAB 1[/td]

[td]VAB 2[/td]

[td]VAB 3[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]R&D 1[/td]

[td]0.5[/td]

[td]0.5[/td]

[td]0.5[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]R&D 2[/td]

[td]1.0[/td]

[td]1.0/0.5[/td]

[td]1.0/0.5[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]R&D 3[/td]

[td]1.5[/td]

[td]1.5/1.0[/td]

[td]1.5/1.0/0.5[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Development:

R&D level 1: 2.25 sci/day

R&D level 2: 4.5 sci/day

R&D level 3: 6.75 sci/day

I think I did make a tweak to the development rates later on that didn't get carried into the UpFree Preset. Those values need tweaked, since the 500 science nodes are going to take almost 75 days. Do keep in mind that the 90 point nodes will take 40 days at level 1, but you can upgrade to level 2 and they'll only take 20 (effective immediately, including on nodes that are part way completed). I think I'll probably cut those times in half or more.

The issue you're having is that the R&D center controls the speed of the build rates, while upgrading the VAB only gives you additional rates. Once you upgrade the R&D center your rates will go up. I might add a bonus from upgrading the VAB as well.

Edited August 3, 2015 by magico13

[HarlyKin]

So, my misunderstanding then. I was expecting each upgrade to affect the build rate or research rate in some way.

Looking at your example it appears that r&d has more to do with change than the VAB. Does the SPH work in the same way?

[magico13]

So, my misunderstanding then. I was expecting each upgrade to affect the build rate or research rate in some way.

Looking at your example it appears that r&d has more to do with change than the VAB. Does the SPH work in the same way?

Apparently when I made the Preset a few months ago I thought it'd be better to have the VAB represent the number of building lines and the R&D center would represent the "ability" of the engineers (increasing R&D thus increases the build rate, while the VAB then controls the number of queues).

That definitely makes sense for the Development rate, but the VAB should increase the build rates at least a little bit (better equipment).

SPH does work the same way, since there isn't a separate formula for the SPH (but [L] get's replaced with the SPH level instead of the VAB level)

[Svm420]

I was having an issue with a vessel getting stuck rollout out. The only difference I had with my configs was a rollout cost. I used this formula. When I changed it back to 0 as default and tried rolling out again it worked. I don't think the vessel cost was to high as I had around 250K when I started the rollout. No matter what I tried it got stuck. at the same time. I even tried another vessel that worked so not sure what the issue is, but thought I'd post my formula and maybe there will be something I am missing. Thanks!

(500*[m]  / ([EL]/1.5)) + (100*([M]-[m]) / ([L])/1.5)

[magico13]

Not 100% sure this is the reason, but it might be: internally the upgrade levels are zero based (I need to double check, but I'm pretty sure they are. It's still early for me ) meaning you're dividing by zero if the editor or launchpad aren't upgraded (which will probably give infinity, but I'm not sure. Might just give an error).

But if it's infinity you shouldn't be able to make it past 10%. Also be careful with your parenthesis on the right side of the equation (you have ([L])/1.5 rather than ([L]/1.5) )

I do like that idea of having the VAB manage the hardware side of things and the Launchpad handling the fuel. I hadn't ever thought of that and it makes perfect sense. I'm interested in seeing what else you come up with.

[Svm420]

Ah TY it is always those little things your missing at 3 am lol. Here is my new formula with division by 0 protection.

(500*[m]  / (min([EL]/1.5), 0.6667)) + (100*([M]-[m]) / (min([L]/1.5), 0.6667))

P.s. They better put you in experimentals and should make this the next stock alike feature to be integrated. It fixes so much wrong with career it's not even funny.

[magico13]

Ah TY it is always those little things your missing at 3 am lol. Here is my new formula with division by 0 protection.

Your parenthesis are still a bit off, it seems in the min() blocks. Also, I think you're still trying to use 1 based levels rather than 0 based.

Maybe try this one:

(500*[m]  / (min(([EL]+1)/1.5, 0.6667))) + (100*([M]-[m]) / (min(([L]+1)/1.5, 0.6667)))

As for experimentals, we'll know soon enough. I applied and think I have a decent shot, but I wouldn't feel bad if they chose more qualified candidates. Even then, there are other opportunities to help with preview builds of KSP.

As for KCT being Stock, I don't expect it will happen. The devs have said that they don't think time matters in a game where there's time warp (which I disagree with), and there are many, many people who don't care for having time requirements.

Which is why there are only about 1000 KCT users by my estimates, but a million total players (0.1% of the population).

[jlcarneiro]

Hey, magico13, this new version looks great, I think the profiles will be very useful (as soon as I learn how to use them correctly). Thanks!

I have a question, though: is it possible to have negative upgrade points? I used this new version on an existing save a couple days ago, afraid of any problem, but it seemed to work fine.

Today I've noticed my upgrade points are negative. Actually it was -3 now it is -1 but i doesn't seem to get back on the positive side... How come?

[magico13]

Is this a sandbox save or a career save? If it's career (or science) sometimes it doesn't count the tech tree nodes properly and that results in negative numbers, but usually way more than that. Have you purchased upgrades in the past? Those should still be counted correctly, but it's possible they aren't being accounted for.

You can open up the settings window and change the starting points to make it positive again, if you like. I'm still looking into why that happens, but it mostly seems to happen with existing saves (maybe just because those are far enough in the tech tree for it to be noticeable). Also, it might be related to custom tech trees. If you're using a custom tech tree it might not count the nodes correctly.

A restart of KSP or at least the save might fix it, but I'm still looking into it.

[jlcarneiro]

Is this a sandbox save or a career save?

It's a career save.

Have you purchased upgrades in the past?

Not it this save (actually, not in 1.0.4, so it was in a different save, now long deleted).

If you're using a custom tech tree it might not count the nodes correctly.

No custom tech trees, I'm already using way too much mods...

A restart of KSP or at least the save might fix it...

I've restarted KSP and it did not change. Didn't quite get what you meant by "at least the save"...

Anyway, I'll try changing the starting points...

Thank you very much for your work and your prompt attention!

Edited August 5, 2015 by jlcarneiro
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to magico13 again.

[magico13]

I've restarted KSP and it did not change. Didn't quite get what you meant by "at least the save"...

Anyway, I'll try changing the starting points...

"at least the save" meant exiting the save and loading it up again. My words aren't 100% clear right now, as I'm not feeling super great and have been at work all day

Let me know if you run into any other issues. I really need to figure out why the tech nodes aren't being counted correctly :/

[jlcarneiro]

"at least the save" meant exiting the save and loading it up again. My words aren't 100% clear right now, as I'm not feeling super great and have been at work all day

Let me know if you run into any other issues. I really need to figure out why the tech nodes aren't being counted correctly :/

Thanks! Maybe it's a mix of your health state at this moment (hope you get better!) and English not being my first language. Some expressions don't get translated quite well...

I've corrected it by changing starting values, now it works fine! I've created a new profile with just these changes and set it to this save. Now I must not change it to another profile, right?

Anyway, if something like this happens again I'll tell you so we can identify the cause...

(BTW, maybe it's my fault, but I think they are not well identified - there are simply three comma-separated values...)

[eightiesboi]

Hey Magico13,

Two things: first, I too am having the negative number of upgrades issue on my career save. I'll post my logs if you'd like.

Second, without KCT, I simply don't bother with career mode. This plus an LS mod like TAC-LS add so much to the game that it's actually difficult for me to understand why Squad *doesn't* make this stock. Yes, I know that the majority of the user base doesn't use it, but I think if they did try it out (or if it had been present from the beginning) they wouldn't play without it. Ever. Whenever I introduce a new person to KSP (I've gifted ten copies of the game so far), your mod is on my list of must haves. In fact, you are the first person I've bought a cup a coffee for, if you get my meaning, out of the 100+ mods I use. Thank you for all the work you've put in and continue to put into KCT.

[magico13]

The documentation is here. The values are for Career, Science, and Sandbox modes, respectively. You don't have to actually save it as a new Preset by the way. Each save has its own settings, but saving it as a Preset lets you share those settings across saves easily (and lets you go back to those settings if you accidentally change Presets later somehow)

Edit: Just released a dev update that should hopefully at least reduce the likelihood of the tech upgrades not being counted. If anyone uses it and finds that they're still getting negative points, I'd like logs and saves. Get it here.

Edited August 6, 2015 by magico13

[HarlyKin]

Had an issue in one of my saves with upgrade points. For some reason I was getting points for upgrading ksc (vab, mission, tracking, pad, and astro). Spent the points, restarted ksp and now I'm at -5 upgrade points.

edit: I should add I am using CTT but it is counting those nodes right.

[justmeman117]

I'd just like to point out that, after making a mod pack, I discovered "better than starting manned" is incompatible with this mod.

I think the reason is because, I completely forgot BTSM starts off career mode with all buildings already upgraded, but does it by upgrading them automatically AFTER starting a career mode game. This interferes with KCT's method of upgrading buildings. The result is that the Administration building (note, first in alphabetical order) rabidly upgrades and deupgrades in a way where the funding is refunded... Which earns the player about 1,000,000 funds per second (lol).

I'm sure there's a way around this by screwing with the save file, probably by just changing the starting levels for all the building to 1, and fixing the funds. But I just thought I'd point it out, in case the KCT or BTSM creators decided to find a workaround and make the mods compatible straight off.

-------------------------------

edit

Yup, after starting a game, go into the persistent save file, edit all the facilities to upgrade level "1", and then reset the funds back to the starting amount. seems to be the only way to make the 2 mods compatible.

I really wish BTSM would make their mod workable with the upgradable buildings.

Edited August 6, 2015 by justmeman117

[Gryphon]

I'd just like to point out that, after making a mod pack, I discovered "better than starting manned" is incompatible with this mod.

I think the reason is because, I completely forgot BTSM starts off career mode with all buildings already upgraded, but does it by upgrading them automatically AFTER starting a career mode game. This interferes with KCT's method of upgrading buildings. The result is that the Administration building (note, first in alphabetical order) rabidly upgrades and deupgrades in a way where the funding is refunded... Which earns the player about 1,000,000 funds per second (lol).

I'm sure there's a way around this by screwing with the save file, probably by just changing the starting levels for all the building to 1, and fixing the funds. But I just thought I'd point it out, in case the KCT or BTSM creators decided to find a workaround and make the mods compatible straight off.

-------------------------------

edit

Yup, after starting a game, go into the persistent save file, edit all the facilities to upgrade level "1", and then reset the funds back to the starting amount. seems to be the only way to make the 2 mods compatible.

I really wish BTSM would make their mod workable with the upgradable buildings.

Well, good luck with that. I don't know a lot about BTSM, but I'll point out this from the BTSM OP:

Compatibility with other mods:

It should be noted that other than the recommended mods, BTSM is intended to be played alone. Thus, I do not offer support for playing it alongside other mods, nor can I vouch for the overall gameplay experience should you decide to install other mods alongside it. Overall, BTSM is intended to provide a tight, balanced, focused gameplay experience, not a broad one, or one that is open to a large number of player options.

Future Plans:

At present I am working on correcting a number of known exploits and other small issues listed below, and also attempting to further refine the balance of the very late game. Beyond that, I intend to further expand upon the progression to create a deeper gameplay experience.

But maybe it's been a while since he updated his Future plans?

[justmeman117]

well, I was really looking to find a more agreeable and realistic tech tree, but unfortunately RP-0, what I really wanted to use, ONLY works when tied to literally a BUTT TON of other mods, including real solar system. I wasnt too keen on having to install and work out the issues of the sheer number of realism overhaul mods involved, particularly when I'd prefer to stick with the stock kerbol system.

Anyway, BTSM was an alternative I've tried before, and actually quite liked. I figured there'd be a few minor issues. Thus far, this is the only one I've found, and I think I fixed it. Everything else in my new modpack seems to work fine (though I doubt that'll be the case the more I play XD). I know mods like BTSM disagree with other mods, but so long as you know a few things about save file editing, a lot of problems can be avoided.

[Gryphon]

well, I was really looking to find a more agreeable and realistic tech tree, but unfortunately RP-0, what I really wanted to use, ONLY works when tied to literally a BUTT TON of other mods, including real solar system. I wasnt too keen on having to install and work out the issues of the sheer number of realism overhaul mods involved, particularly when I'd prefer to stick with the stock kerbol system.

Anyway, BTSM was an alternative I've tried before, and actually quite liked. I figured there'd be a few minor issues. Thus far, this is the only one I've found, and I think I fixed it. Everything else in my new modpack seems to work fine (though I doubt that'll be the case the more I play XD). I know mods like BTSM disagree with other mods, but so long as you know a few things about save file editing, a lot of problems can be avoided.

I understand. I found BTSM when I was looking for the same thing, but I didn't want to use only his peculiar mix of mods. I really want a tech tree that give access to simple things like ladders and small rockets earlier, and with adapters and nose cones available BEFORE the engines and tanks for each size. I've found a couple possible candidate mods, but nothing that only does what I want.

[magico13]

Had an issue in one of my saves with upgrade points. For some reason I was getting points for upgrading ksc (vab, mission, tracking, pad, and astro). Spent the points, restarted ksp and now I'm at -5 upgrade points.

edit: I should add I am using CTT but it is counting those nodes right.

You shouldn't be getting upgrade points for unlocking buildings, so that's definitely a bug. I'll take a look at it, but unless you want to adjust your starting points or edit some things in the save file, you'll be stuck in the negatives until you legitimately earn enough upgrades to be in the positives again. You can temporarily increase the number of starting points so you have two free upgrades, then "reset upgrades" and lower your points back down to normal as one option. But that will make it cost 4 points to reset next time.

I'd just like to point out that, after making a mod pack, I discovered "better than starting manned" is incompatible with this mod.

How KCT handles the building upgrades is a bit of a backward system anyway. It's a lot more "reactive" than I had originally planned on and waits until the building is upgraded before it can do anything, which screws things up more often than I'd like. I need to figure out how to override the function that is normally called when you press the upgrade button, which should fix this and several other issues. Maybe I'll poke enneract about it, since I think he's already figured out how to do that.

well, I was really looking to find a more agreeable and realistic tech tree, but unfortunately RP-0, what I really wanted to use, ONLY works when tied to literally a BUTT TON of other mods, including real solar system.

I really want a tech tree that give access to simple things like ladders and small rockets earlier, and with adapters and nose cones available BEFORE the engines and tanks for each size.

I haven't used it myself, but I know of SETI and the Engineering Tech Tree which might be possible alternatives. Otherwise, 1.0 made it way easier to make tech trees so you can always make your own (but you might end up making the situation worse)

As for the modpack you've created justmeman117, I'm curious what other mods are included in there. I always like to see what other people pair with KCT.

[yardpup01]

well, I was really looking to find a more agreeable and realistic tech tree, but unfortunately RP-0, what I really wanted to use, ONLY works when tied to literally a BUTT TON of other mods, including real solar system. I wasnt too keen on having to install and work out the issues of the sheer number of realism overhaul mods involved, particularly when I'd prefer to stick with the stock kerbol system.

I've been having a lot of fun with OpenTree. I don't use parts packs, so I don't know how well those are integrated, but the base tree is fun and provides plenty of directions one can choose from.

[Gryphon]

I haven't used it myself, but I know of SETI and the Engineering Tech Tree which might be possible alternatives. Otherwise, 1.0 made it way easier to make tech trees so you can always make your own (but you might end up making the situation worse)

I've been having a lot of fun with OpenTree. I don't use parts packs, so I don't know how well those are integrated, but the base tree is fun and provides plenty of directions one can choose from.

Thanks! I knew about SETI (which, though modular, still does more than I want), but not the other two. That ETT looks pretty tasty, because it lets the player decide what to research first.

[justmeman117]

wow, thanks for responding man. I wound up having to scrap BTSM because of the upgraded building issue. Like I said, that mod starts career modes off with fully upgraded facilities, and even after solving the upgrade/deupgrade problem, the game still kept adding 1.4 million funds everytime I started it up (which I would have to go in and fix everytime). It also looks like it would've made my other parts packs go away. Such a bummer that BTSM doesnt really work with other mods. Anyway, thanks for the tip on Seti and ETT, I'll check them out.

Anyway, I was mostly trying to go for realism and creativity with this mod pack.

SXT (aircraft parts, like propellers and stuff)

B9 Aerospace procedural wings

Procedural fairings

Procedural parts

Tweakscale

Stage recovery

KCT

Magic Smoke robotics parts

Most of this stuff is just to maximize customization in the rockets, and add a little more realism in the form of stage recovery and making things cost time. However, I do have 2 other mods that are more just for fun, BDarmory (weapons), and a new boat parts pack called Maratime pack. I'm liking the maratime pack, it's less customizable than the other boat parts pack that's been around forever, but it's a lot more user friendly.

Additionally, I keep forgetting to add Kerbal Engineer to the list. That mod really ought to be in the stock game.

I kinda wish there was a realism overhaul mod pack that didnt include real solar system. The graphics and scale of real solar system feel a bit too much like Orbiter to me, which, frankly, wasnt a very fun simulator. Part of the fun, i think, in KSP, is the fact that it IS a fictional solar system, so every bit of it feels like never before exploration. Must be what exploring a different planetary system in our universe would feel like.

- - - Updated - - -

also, I noticed that I need to rebuild vehicles everytime I launch one, including recovered stages, and aircraft. It still takes a while, in spite of having the recovered parts in my inventory. Is there some way to get KCT to recognize a reusable stage or aircraft, so that it simulates only the time it takes to refuel it? If not, I'd make that suggestion for a future addition to KCT.

[magico13]

I kinda wish there was a realism overhaul mod pack that didnt include real solar system. The graphics and scale of real solar system feel a bit too much like Orbiter to me, which, frankly, wasnt a very fun simulator. Part of the fun, i think, in KSP, is the fact that it IS a fictional solar system, so every bit of it feels like never before exploration. Must be what exploring a different planetary system in our universe would feel like.

also, I noticed that I need to rebuild vehicles everytime I launch one, including recovered stages, and aircraft. It still takes a while, in spite of having the recovered parts in my inventory. Is there some way to get KCT to recognize a reusable stage or aircraft, so that it simulates only the time it takes to refuel it? If not, I'd make that suggestion for a future addition to KCT.

Realism overhaul doesn't actually require RSS anymore, btw, but I'm not sure how well it works without it.

As for recovering whole vessels, just open up the KCT window when landed and press the big Recover Active Vessel (after selecting VAB or SPH). Just be warned that KSP really doesn't like turning a Vessel back into a Craft, so it can get super buggy. KCT will make a quicksave beforehand, so you can always load that if it gets too bugged. If it's just part of a vessel (like a booster) then you should just recover it normally and use the part inventory (which doesn't have the same bugginess, but still takes about 10x less time to build)

You can also just up the Inventory Effect if 1/10 build times aren't low enough for you.