Lockheed claims breakthrough on fusion energy project

[*Aqua*]

People aren't able to set up a big working fusion reactor. There is obviously no way Lockheed can build a small one that's working and produce enough energy.

[Dodgey]

People aren't able to set up a big working fusion reactor. There is obviously no way Lockheed can build a small one that's working and produce enough energy.

Yes and man can not fly in an aircraft that is more heavy than air.

[*Aqua*]

You didn't understand my post or I couldn't express myself good enough. English isn't my native language.

If scientist can't build a fusion reactor which can generate electricity (or other form of harvestable energy) for more than a few milliseconds then there is no way Lockheed can do that 1/10 (or smaller) scale. That's simply not possible at the moment.

Most projects about fusion reactors center around the problem how to ensure continous fusion for at least a few minutes and how to extract the energy. Thinking of a "smaller" reactor design is something we can (and probably will) think about after.

[KerikBalm]

Lets edit aquas post, yet maintain factual accuracy:

If scientists can't build a fusion reactor which can generate electricity, then there is no way other scientists can do it with a different design on a smaller scale.

Does anyone see the problem here?

There are many scientists right now working on different reactor designs that would generate net power at much smaller scales than a torus like ITER.

In particular, I'm enthusiastic about polywell (a varient of IEF) fusion, and fusion using dense plasma focus ("focus fusion")

In particular dense plasma focus based designs are producing orders of magntide more fusion events than torus designs of the same scale and power input. If it is scaled up a bit... it should beat ITER handily.

Its also the only fusion reactor I'm aware of that has achieved the conditions needed for burning P-B11 fuel (even if the fusion rate or that reaction is pretty low) - excepting of course particle colliders like the LHC, which don't really count as fusion reactor designs.

Anyway, here is what Lockheed actually says:

http://www.lockheedmartin.ch/us/news/press-releases/2014/october/141015ae_lockheed-martin-pursuing-compact-nuclear-fusion.html

PALMDALE, Calif., Oct. 15, 2014 – The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] Skunk Works® team is working on a new compact fusion reactor (CFR) that can be developed and deployed in as little as ten years. Currently, there are several patents pending that cover their approach.

While fusion itself is not new, the Skunk Works has built on more than 60 years of fusion research and investment to develop an approach that offers a significant reduction in size compared to mainstream efforts.

“Our compact fusion concept combines several alternative magnetic confinement approaches, taking the best parts of each, and offers a 90 percent size reduction over previous concepts,†said Tom McGuire, compact fusion lead for the Skunk Works’ Revolutionary Technology Programs. “The smaller size will allow us to design, build and test the CFR in less than a year.â€Â

After completing several of these design-build-test cycles, the team anticipates being able to produce a prototype in five years. As they gain confidence and progress technically with each experiment, they will also be searching for partners to help further the technology.

Given that it was already public knowledge that they were working on this, the only new thing in this press release is the part "they will also be searching for partners to help further the technology" which seems to imply they're not that interested in it anymore, and want to dump it on someone else.

Edited October 16, 2014 by KerikBalm

[*Aqua*]

Polywell is interesting. I didn't hear about that before.

Does it really work? There seems to be a lot of discussion about how strong the bremsstrahlung will be.

[KerikBalm]

It really works as far as it really acheives fusion. Its not at a scale to break even yet, but the concept has been validated, and many of the theory predictions have been confirmed.

[Vanamonde]

Please read the forum before posting:

Translation: Thank you for sharing this interesting story, but it seems there is already a thread about it. The moderators can merge them to keep the forum tidy.

[1of6Billion]

Aha, Skunkworks

No one bothered to check LM?

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2014/october/141015ae_lockheed-martin-pursuing-compact-nuclear-fusion.html

[KerikBalm]

No one bothered to check LM?

Check post #29, also 24, and 15

[1of6Billion]

Check post #29, also 24, and 15

skimmed too fast

[Warpedone]

I saw comment somewhere that they were doing this press release both (a) to get partners in and ( because they are about to file patents on certain aspects. Anyone got a view on point (?

[KerikBalm]

directly from their press release:

"Currently, there are several patents pending that cover their approach."

But I suspect these patents were filed a while ago, probably back at the beginning of 2013, when they first announced the project.

Patents can take quite a while to be granted.

[crazyewok]

An unknown team coming up with a revolutionary design,

I would hardly call Lockheed martin a multi national defence co operation which sits at around top of one of the biggest company's in the world "unknown"

I also dont think such a company would risk its reputation on unfounded claims do you?

Also if any company is going to come out with "revolutionary design" it will be a multi billion doller company that specialises in R&D and has some of the best minds in the world working for it as well as some of the most advanced equipment and facilities.

that they refuse to even hint about the nature of?

Sitting on not only trade secrets but especially defence secrets, especially ones that would cause such a huge technological shift is hardly new to such company's? Especial such a company used to secrets and keeping things classified.

Edited October 19, 2014 by crazyewok

[crazyewok]

directly from their press release:

"Currently, there are several patents pending that cover their approach."

But I suspect these patents were filed a while ago, probably back at the beginning of 2013, when they first announced the project.

Patents can take quite a while to be granted.

Likely due to its huge impact on the defence industry it had to go through some review too.

[magnemoe]

Just saw this overview, 8 commercial fusion projects most is aiming for net gain in 5-10 years.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/10/updated-prospects-for-commercial.html

Not that net gain does not equal economically. you have to produce many times more energy than you use for it to be economical.

[Aghanim]

At least Lockheed fusion isn't some vaporware fusion device

[jfx]

Smells like LENR & cold fusion in here. (And has been in the year since this was released first.)

Seriously. If you claim your approach will ridicule tens of thousands of man-hours from other scientists actively researching and engineering in the respective field and all you publish is a corporate press release citing great business opportunities in increasing global power demand and 'murrican power projection ... don't expect to be taken seriously.

Edited October 20, 2014 by jfx

[magnemoe]

Smells like LENR & cold fusion in here. (And has been in the year since this was released first.)

Seriously. If you claim your approach will ridicule tens of thousands of man-hours from other scientists actively researching and engineering in the respective field and all you publish is a corporate press release citing great business opportunities in increasing global power demand and 'murrican power projection ... don't expect to be taken seriously.

its an big difference between an huge cooperation like Lockheed and Rossie or even the smaller companies working with fusion.

An big company very rarely do scams of this type, its not that they are nicer rater that they are watched more closely and that stuff like press releases has to pass many persons before getting released, they are also far less willing to take risks.

Using millions on low chance research projects is not a risk but long term planning, publishing an fake report to manipulate the stock value is high risk.

[KerikBalm]

This isn't like LENR and cold fusion. All these machines are readily confirmed to produce nuclear reactions. Cold fusion OTOH is irrepreducible.

There are also many highly qualified people working on approaches other that ITER. The way you say it, one of the groups must be ridiculed....

Read the press release carefully, with history in consideration. Lockheed didn't make any big claims, idiot reporters did.

Lockheed has lengthened its projections in this release realtive to when they started.

Seems to me they are losing interest.

[jfx]

There are also many highly qualified people working on approaches other that ITER. The way you say it, one of the groups must be ridiculed....

I didn't say ITER is the only valid approach. I said the specific proposal by lockheed is to be ridiculed because of ridiculous claims and cheap pitch tactics instead of published literature:

"It fits on a large truck" ... so does the main reactor vessel of any 100mw el fission reactor in a plant/ship, doesnt mean you still need a whole building worth of equipment to keep it running (exclusing fission specific safety systems).

"One gram of fusion fuel contains three bazilion times more energy than a gram of gasoline". Big numbers, yay.

The original anouncement is almost two years old: https://plus.google.com/+SolveforX/posts/HsTGsEz3Zpv The last memo sounds a lot like: "When projecting costs we were off by one to three trailing zeroes, pls gib dod monies".

This isn't like LENR and cold fusion. All these machines are readily confirmed to produce nuclear reactions. Cold fusion OTOH is irrepreducible.

I realize this is not cold fusion. The point is: With their proposal it is as reputable as cold fusion. Pitch the solution to the worlds energy problems - production ready within 10 years. You want proof? Uh.. "Our approach is X times better and more awesome, good enough?".

Edited October 20, 2014 by jfx

[crazyewok]

Smells like LENR & cold fusion in here. (And has been in the year since this was released first.)

Seriously. If you claim your approach will ridicule tens of thousands of man-hours from other scientists actively researching and engineering in the respective field and all you publish is a corporate press release citing great business opportunities in increasing global power demand and 'murrican power projection ... don't expect to be taken seriously.

I find it hard to believe the worlds number one defence corporation would "scam". The implications would be enormous.

[jfx]

Depends on your definition of scam. "Insert insane F-35 project/unit cost".

[Jovus]

I find it hard to believe the worlds number one defence corporation would "scam". The implications would be enormous.

Spoken like someone who doesn't work on DoD contracts for a living. It's kinda the main focus of the company.

[Godot]

Guess if they manage to create fusion reactors small enough to fit into a tank, it could be a breakthrough for weapons technology.

Like tanks getting equipped with Railguns instead of normal cannons (guess that would also greatly increase the amount of ammo they can carry with them, as the projectiles for Railguns don´t need any propellant charge to be included with the projectile)

[KerikBalm]

No, not the size of a tank.

Even if it were, that wouldn't solve the railgun problems.

jfx, what were those other people devoting "tens of thousands of man-hours from other scientists actively researching and engineering in the respective field" that would be "ridiculed" working on then?

When it comes to work on Fusion power, there are numerous smaller groups (starved of funding) working on designs much smaller than ITER, there are those working on ITER, and then there are those working on fusion power in the form of nuclear weapons (NIF, for instance)