[1.3.0] OPT Space Plane v2.0.1 - updated 29/07/2017

[Spanksh]

5 minutes ago, M_Ouellette said:

Ya on that hull, though you would have to remember the port retracts so it going to take up more space inside, so if we're not playing Doctor Who about things there's a fat tube in the middle of the room that port and it mechanism is sitting in. Is there still going to be room for seating around it?

That is why I used the attachment point to demonstrate how much space is left below the docking port.

And note that the tube actually doesn't even retract nearly as far as the attachment point imitates. Apart from that, even if the tube reached to the very bottom, the seats would easily fit next to the tube:

Edited September 29, 2016 by Spanksh

[M_Ouellette]

If it's just an entry, with no airlock, no safeguard, not the way I would design it but whatever, it's just a game after all.

[Spanksh]

6 minutes ago, M_Ouellette said:

If it's just an entry, with no airlock, no safeguard, not the way I would design it but whatever, it's just a game after all.

Well the glue-on docking ports aren't much safer either

[Mycroft]

1 hour ago, M_Ouellette said:

Ya on that hull, though you would have to remember the port retracts so it going to take up more space inside, so if we're not playing Doctor Who about things there's a fat tube in the middle of the room that port and it mechanism is sitting in. Is there still going to be room for seating around it?

If you look at how far the docking port extends out, then extrapolate it down into the body, then it looks like there should be. Heck, even if it takes up the entire center section there should be enough space for two Kerbals on each side.

[M_Ouellette]

1 hour ago, Spanksh said:

Well the glue-on docking ports aren't much safer either

Ya but you can at least imagine there is some kind of chamber in behind the things

15 minutes ago, Mycroft said:

If you look at how far the docking port extends out, then extrapolate it down into the body, then it looks like there should be. Heck, even if it takes up the entire center section there should be enough space for two Kerbals on each side.

I guess but they are supposed to be able to pass through this module and it would a hell of a tight squeeze getting by those seats going from front to back don't you think? If it weren't for the surrounding tanks there would be tons of room but because of those it make that space seem a lot smaller. I'm game if you guys think they could somehow fit and allow passage around that docking assembly, after all the seating doesn't have to be as huge as every example we've illustrated.

[JadeOfMaar]

Howdy all. I just tried the latest version of this mod and built a very large thing that actually got into Eve orbit. I've always been a very large fan of OPT, and I like the new category names but I'd like to point out that I'm a little sad that all the part name prefixes are gone (just because it confuses KerbalX, for the most part) but also:

• The two B-2.5m adapters were not renamed to Stail adapters.
• Some engines are missing from the OPT Propulsion (Manufacturer) category.
• Chimera seems rather barren although I don't use that class of parts.

If I notice anything else I'll let you know. If y'all want to see what I built, let me know. It contains 6 of those J-81 nacelles.

[Spanksh]

1 hour ago, M_Ouellette said:

Ya but you can at least imagine there is some kind of chamber in behind the things

I guess but they are supposed to be able to pass through this module and it would a hell of a tight squeeze getting by those seats going from front to back don't you think? If it weren't for the surrounding tanks there would be tons of room but because of those it make that space seem a lot smaller. I'm game if you guys think they could somehow fit and allow passage around that docking assembly, after all the seating doesn't have to be as huge as every example we've illustrated.

But how? When you put it directly on a crew compartment there is far less space than on the part in question.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your argument and even agree in general. However considering how this is handled in KSP in every other situation, it doesn't make sense to expect additional safety features no other part in the entire game provides.

 

Just to clarify my basis of argumentation or justification in these kinds of cases in general:

- Balancing the strength/severity of a feature: Actual game balance should follow, but might overrule game internal logic. This means changing the amount of fuel/seats/lift etc. should be done, if a reasonable balance is not achieved otherwise, even if e.g. the model would allow a higher/lower amount. The balance is hereby dictated by stock parts. So while you could argue, you could cram 14 Kerbals within a very small space, you should comply with the smallest amount of space stock parts provide, to stay within game balance.

- Balancing the existence of a feature: The purpose of a part and actual look of the part should overrule balance, unless it would be of a game breaking severity. This means, if a part is built for carrying fuel/crew or provide certain features, there must be a reason like complete game breaking imbalance or impossibility/pointlessness within game internal logic to justify removing/adding it.

 

Taking this case as example: The port is built for crew, fuel and a docking port. The existence of these features is reasonable within the game logic and does not completely break the balance of the game. Therefor these features need to stay. Within game logic it reasonably allows for ~800 fuel and at least 6 seats. Arguably this would break balance, since the seats would be very crammed in comparison to stock parts and it would make this single part very "powerful" within its features. More reasonable would be 4 seats to comply with stock balance (in regards to space) or 2 seats to slightly offset the amount of features the part has (its "power"). After this the part is balanced, both in existence and strength of features, unless a strong argument changing the tipping point of either of these comes up.

 

Now I don't go through this entire thought process in detail only to set up a part for the first time. I rather follow the original balancing. However when it comes up that some aspect might be heavily off the charts (missing/having major features or having completely unreasonable values) then it's worth putting some more thought into it.

 

-----------

 

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Howdy all. I just tried the latest version of this mod and built a very large thing that actually got into Eve orbit. I've always been a very large fan of OPT, and I like the new category names but I'd like to point out that I'm a little sad that all the part name prefixes are gone (just because it confuses KerbalX, for the most part) but also:

• The two B-2.5m adapters were not renamed to Stail adapters.
• Some engines are missing from the OPT Propulsion (Manufacturer) category.
• Chimera seems rather barren although I don't use that class of parts.

If I notice anything else I'll let you know. If y'all want to see what I built, let me know. It contains 6 of those J-81 nacelles.

 

- is already fixed in the upcoming 1.8.6

- is already fixed in the upcoming 1.8.6

- The only chimera parts are the cockpit and adapter (in 1.8.5.1, the latest version), which I suppose doesn't quite classify as a separate class, since it's part of Avatar. The naming of these parts also should be more clear in the upcoming 1.8.6 (hopefully)

It'll be released once KSP 1.2 hits stable release, since it includes all the new features.

Also would love to see your build!

Edited September 29, 2016 by Spanksh
spelling, grammar and some more thoughts, because my brain is slow as always

[JadeOfMaar]

Ahhh. Excellent. The kerbals building my flagship will be quite pleased.

Here's what I did.

The lifter has about 2000 dV in it for 640t weight. (Upscaled twin-boars: 3.75m + Eve Optimized Engines.) The main craft at 211t becomes able to fly for itself at 12km up, starting with 8000 dV, and makes 100km orbit with 5000+ dV remaining. With that much I could sacrifice some and add a second cargo bay and fill up with important stuff for a Gilly base or just to refuel to leave Eve SOI. It's prepared for re-entry but the CoM is rather far back due to engine weight alone, let alone cargo weight, and it's missing Yaw control. It currently will drift sideways out of control and explode.

 

 

Earlier screenshot but still valid. Forward stabilizers bring CoL too far forward given how far back CoM is. The problem remains though so the ship will need chutes or be redesigned as a rocket and do VTOL.

[TheKurgan]

Wow I caused a poo storm... Sorry Stali.

I think it's big enough for 4 little kerbals to squeeze into  and the IVA would be cool looking! Big ole mechanical contraption for extending the docking port. 

Anyhoo, love your work on this mod.

Cheers.

[Spanksh]

2 minutes ago, TheKurgan said:

Wow I caused a poo storm... Sorry Stali.

I think it's big enough for 4 little kerbals to squeeze into  and the IVA would be cool looking! Big ole mechanical contraption for extending the docking port. 

Anyhoo, love your work on this mod.

Cheers.

Not really  It's important to discuss balancing!

[TheKurgan]

Agreed 100%

Hey, you working on this mod too?

[M_Ouellette]

Not a poo storm. It's my fault for trying to apply real world engineering precedents to a game situation and I should have known better. I was thinking of the realism value that such a part would have a mechanical infrastructure, which of course doesn't exist here, but if it were real, would have to be accommodated in the design.

[Spanksh]

2 minutes ago, TheKurgan said:

Agreed 100%

Hey, you working on this mod too?

Since last weekend. When 1.2 hit I took it on me to completely rework the mod (no worries, no internally renamed parts). Meaning updating all modules, adding all the juicy new features of 1.2, ironing out all minor or major bugs, converting the textures for better visual quality, completely reformatting all configs, completely re-implementing all the fuelswitches etc. etc. etc. 

I'm basically done (just keeping on testing during the 1.2 pre release and looking out for bugs I missed and potential new features in future KSP releases) and waiting for 1.2 to hit the full release so we can make it properly public  (also firespitter doesn't work until the full release hits, so 1.8.6 OPT doesn't properly work without some manual changes to work around this issue)

[Sresk]

Hey guys it's great to see people working on this mod. I just started playing with it a few days ago and it's awesome.

A couple of things I noticed though: 

1 air-intake values appear to be too low compared to stock.

2 the engine nacelle is WAY over powered with 2000isp in vacume. I had to lower to 440 just so I was tempted to slap it on everything I ever built.

3. I may be getting a bad interaction with ksp interstellar fuel switch. But on the body parts that can have different loadouts of fuel. No matter what variant I pick when I go to lunch the craft they always come loaded with LOX. This is annoying as I try to build my SSTOs without any oxidizer at all.. or very little.

[Mycroft]

10 hours ago, Spanksh said:

Since last weekend. When 1.2 hit I took it on me to completely rework the mod (no worries, no internally renamed parts). Meaning updating all modules, adding all the juicy new features of 1.2, ironing out all minor or major bugs, converting the textures for better visual quality, completely reformatting all configs, completely re-implementing all the fuelswitches etc. etc. etc. 

I'm basically done (just keeping on testing during the 1.2 pre release and looking out for bugs I missed and potential new features in future KSP releases) and waiting for 1.2 to hit the full release so we can make it properly public  (also firespitter doesn't work until the full release hits, so 1.8.6 OPT doesn't properly work without some manual changes to work around this issue)

So you get to work with @stali79? Or is he not really involved anymore? I'm confused, and I probably shouldn't be, but could someone please enlighten me?

[stali79]

Frankly, he has reversed some of the decisions that were made by myself and the other guys maintaining the mod and semi charged ahead on his own.

 

 

[TheKurgan]

Ah man, that's not so good.. granted, I wasn't ecstatic about a couple of your guy's changes, but I was still extremely happy and appreciative that is was being maintained and advanced. 

It would be so much better if you guys could continue as a collective.

[TheKurgan]

Out of the 45+ mods I use, this one is the one I couldn't play without... I've build dozens of space planes using this mod, 3 in particular are used daily. I have 3 main classes of space plane that have each evolved up to mark 3 to mark 5 versions. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by TheKurgan

[stali79]

1 hour ago, TheKurgan said:

Ah man, that's not so good.. granted, I wasn't ecstatic about a couple of your guy's changes, but I was still extremely happy and appreciative that is was being maintained and advanced. 

It would be so much better if you guys could continue as a collective.

The thing is, the team and I know things that you guys dont and have been  asked not to say anything at this point which is partly why i am resisting @Spanksh's efforts and changes and only adopting some of the changes he has made for a final update before @K.Yeon's return next month at which point it goes back into his hands. Depending on what he chooses to release I may end updoing an OPT supplimentary pack to goside by side with anything new that he chooses to add.

[TheKurgan]

7 minutes ago, stali79 said:

I may end updoing an OPT supplimentary pack to goside by side with anything new that he chooses to add.

That would be AWESOME! 

Either way, I'll be waiting a while before going fully to 1.2... I'm way too mod dependant.

[degenerate]

11 hours ago, Sresk said:

2 the engine nacelle is WAY over powered with 2000isp in vacume. I had to lower to 440 just so I was tempted to slap it on everything I ever built.

Compared to the stock engines, sure it's overpowered.
It's absolutely brilliant for when I want to push massive space planes into orbit without having to bring either loads of fuel or slap 20 nukes on it though

[Mycroft]

3 hours ago, degenerate said:

Compared to the stock engines, sure it's overpowered.
It's absolutely brilliant for when I want to push massive space planes into orbit without having to bring either loads of fuel or slap 20 nukes on it though

So apparently it actually has the same ratio of atmosphere/vacuum isp, and the same ratio of in-atmo/vacuum thrust. Do the math.

 

Oh by the way, I just saw the movie 'Avatar' and as soon as I saw the shuttle, I thought: "Oh my goodness, that is totally an OPT plane!" I now see where OPT got its inspiration for that cockpit from. I immediately fell in love with that shuttle, and now I wanna go build one. It's funny, the whole thing, not just the cockpit had the look of this mod from the landing gear to the wing tips. Something tells me that's intentional, and I now love this mod that much more. Oooh that shuttle was pretty...

[Spanksh]

Ok, so I realize the way I talked about the changes I made and how I argue some of my decisions have made a wrong impression of what I did/am doing. So first of all apologies and please let me clarify:

 

First of all @stali79 is the one maintaining this mod and always has the last word about what he releases. I am not officially a member of the team, nor do I plan to create a full official release on my own. If he is going to use parts of my version, only makes adjustments, leave it as is or even decide not to use it at all, is always his decision.

What I did (and am still doing while 1.2 prereleases are still going) was primarily a massive internal overhaul of the mod, meaning adding the new missing features, ironing out all the minor and major bugs, which sneaked in over the accumulation of all the different parts, all the in my opinion unjustified changes of features and most importantly tidy up all the incredibly messy configs, which were completely all over the place in regards to their entries. This is also the reason why I primarily did it on my own, since such a major rework is close to impossible to do with several people in conjunction, if not all have the exact same concept for the cfgs.

I will argue for my decisions and explain them, however for whatever reason @stali79 decides to change whatever he wishes to, he can and should do so. My version will be provided to him as is and is simply supposed to be a major help for future development of this mod (Otherwise I would have kept it for me privately). I only did this in the first place because OPT is my most favorite mod and I literally can't play KSP without it. So I wanted to see the mod in its best possible shape for the new 1.2 update.

 

I wholeheartedly hope @stali79 and maybe to some degree even @K.Yeon adopts my version and simply changes settings/assets in the way he prefers them, since imo the important part is upholding the general quality and layout of the new CFGs, which I hope he will continue using. 

 

If he decided to make major changes to the version I will provide him once 1.2 prereleases are done, with which I disagree, I might release a "Directors Cut" in a single post in here for the people sharing my views on certain features, but I will not publish it as a truly separate version or on a proper mod platform. @stali79's version is the only official continuation of OPT until @K.Yeon himself returns.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Spanksh

[degenerate]

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

So apparently it actually has the same ratio of atmosphere/vacuum isp, and the same ratio of in-atmo/vacuum thrust. Do the math.

 

Oh by the way, I just saw the movie 'Avatar' and as soon as I saw the shuttle, I thought: "Oh my goodness, that is totally an OPT plane!" I now see where OPT got its inspiration for that cockpit from. I immediately fell in love with that shuttle, and now I wanna go build one. It's funny, the whole thing, not just the cockpit had the look of this mod from the landing gear to the wing tips. Something tells me that's intentional, and I now love this mod that much more. Oooh that shuttle was pretty...

In too bad shape to do math at the moment, I keep telling myself the engine nacelle and the dark drive are futuristic inventions which fits my space program perfectly
 

Would love to see your Avatar shuttle when it's done, loved that movie!

[TheKurgan]

2 hours ago, Mycroft said:

...and now I wanna go build one

That... omg...  /slapself that's the Avatar class!! 

 

Would you please upload the craft file when you are done? and a lit of the mods used

Edited September 30, 2016 by TheKurgan
left out a word :P